Author Topic: Caprica is dead  (Read 14209 times)

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Offline StarSlayer

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I'd like a Trek show set in the backwater system where they send all the rejects, focusing on some old starship thats seen better days, something TMP era because thats was when trek design was at its best.  Where the sector command staff are all Fobbit assholes and crew have to deal with the regular bull**** thats part and parcel of the military.  I'd like them to screw the pooch repeatedly without some ass pull techno-babel to fix everything by the end of the episode.  That first contact/diplomatic mission you botched?  Bite you in the ass later in the season. 

I'd be stoked for that Trek.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline The E

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You mean the sort of Trek that won't ever work?

I'm with RDM on this one. TOS set up the formula, TNG perfected it, and DS9 inverted it. Voyager and Enterprise were ... an afterglow. A rehashing of stories and concepts that just wasn't needed.

Also? Brannon Braga? Total hack. (His best script being one where he basically copy-pasted one Act of material 3 or 4 times)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 08:50:44 pm by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Snagger

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Voyager was another TNG spin-off that had more bad episodes than good but was still better than TNG (and at its best was the best series of the franchise, IMHO), which itself was a superior spin-off from the original.

This is where we disagree. I found Voyager to be the worst of Star Trek. It tended to solve problems through the power of technobabble much more than any other trek before, and had totally unlikable characters to boot. Captain Janeway - trying to be a female John Wayne didn't really work and her more authoritative posture attempts always made me cringe. Paris and Kim - bland, faceless characters without any character whatsoever. The Doctor - there was potential there but they ruined him as well with a bunch of stupid writing. Kes - oh how I celebrated when she left the show. Neelix - almost as bad as Jar-Jar; the less said about him the better. Tuvok - take Spock, remove every interesting thing about him and presto, Voyager's chief of security. Chakotay was somewhat tolerable but that wasn't enough to save the rest. No wonder they had to force a 3 sizes too small costume onto Jeri Ryan's body, fabric holding on to it's dear life, to get some of the ratings back.
And don't even get me started on the Borg kids.. Voyager had maybe 4-5 relatively decent episodes in it's entire 7 season run. That's a pretty bad ratio.
Of course, I find the entire Star Trek universe somewhat sterile, boring, and lame - but Voyager was definitely the worst of the lot, imo.
Oh, don't get me wrong - I didn't think much of it in general; it only had four basic episodes: enemy boarding, trapped in the holodeck, time paradox and crew members turned into another life form.  It was generally poor, and Chackotays continual insubordination should have seen him airlocked while Kes, Neelix and 7of9 were so dull they had to give them bright colour make up and fancy dress outfits just to keep the viewers from nodding off.  But the episodes where Voyager had collided with an ice planet and the crew had all died apart from Chackotay and Kim, who died in a future unauthorised mission to change the past and save the crew, Scorpion and the one where the ship was falling apart and the crew eventually realise they are copies of the real Voyager, made of some weird material on a planet from a previous episode, and are destroyed before the real Voyager can reach them were some of the best TV Trek ever filmed. 

I really dislike TNG, though.  It was so PC and dull, with everyone on the crew noble, incredibly highly educated and fearless - there were only a handful of occasions where any crew member had any character flaws, and they were always very junior ranks like Dwight Shultz and Michelle Forbes' characters.  They even let a kid regularly fly the ship!  Tactical decisions were made by the psychological councillor, and combat engagements were met by urgent staff meetings in the conference room because the Captain was too weak to make a decision to fire back without everyone else having a touchy-feely session first.  At least Janeway was decisive and tough; ridiculous at times, but the best Trek commander yet.

 

Offline Angelus

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Voyager was another TNG spin-off that had more bad episodes than good but was still better than TNG (and at its best was the best series of the franchise, IMHO), which itself was a superior spin-off from the original.

This is where we disagree. I found Voyager to be the worst of Star Trek. It tended to solve problems through the power of technobabble much more than any other trek before, and had totally unlikable characters to boot. Captain Janeway - trying to be a female John Wayne didn't really work and her more authoritative posture attempts always made me cringe. Paris and Kim - bland, faceless characters without any character whatsoever. The Doctor - there was potential there but they ruined him as well with a bunch of stupid writing. Kes - oh how I celebrated when she left the show. Neelix - almost as bad as Jar-Jar; the less said about him the better. Tuvok - take Spock, remove every interesting thing about him and presto, Voyager's chief of security. Chakotay was somewhat tolerable but that wasn't enough to save the rest. No wonder they had to force a 3 sizes too small costume onto Jeri Ryan's body, fabric holding on to it's dear life, to get some of the ratings back.
And don't even get me started on the Borg kids.. Voyager had maybe 4-5 relatively decent episodes in it's entire 7 season run. That's a pretty bad ratio.
Of course, I find the entire Star Trek universe somewhat sterile, boring, and lame - but Voyager was definitely the worst of the lot, imo.
Oh, don't get me wrong - I didn't think much of it in general; it only had four basic episodes: enemy boarding, trapped in the holodeck, time paradox and crew members turned into another life form.  It was generally poor, and Chackotays continual insubordination should have seen him airlocked while Kes, Neelix and 7of9 were so dull they had to give them bright colour make up and fancy dress outfits just to keep the viewers from nodding off.  But the episodes where Voyager had collided with an ice planet and the crew had all died apart from Chackotay and Kim, who died in a future unauthorised mission to change the past and save the crew, Scorpion and the one where the ship was falling apart and the crew eventually realise they are copies of the real Voyager, made of some weird material on a planet from a previous episode, and are destroyed before the real Voyager can reach them were some of the best TV Trek ever filmed. 

I really dislike TNG, though.  It was so PC and dull, with everyone on the crew noble, incredibly highly educated and fearless - there were only a handful of occasions where any crew member had any character flaws, and they were always very junior ranks like Dwight Shultz and Michelle Forbes' characters.  They even let a kid regularly fly the ship!  Tactical decisions were made by the psychological councillor, and combat engagements were met by urgent staff meetings in the conference room because the Captain was too weak to make a decision to fire back without everyone else having a touchy-feely session first.  At least Janeway was decisive and tough; ridiculous at times, but the best Trek commander yet.

imo, she's the worst. She was set up as a Scientist, then ends as duke nuke'ems nihilistic sister, while Chakotay was set up as bone hard freedom fighter and ends up as Janeways lapdog.
They had the opportunity to create tension with the Maquis/ federation crew, and a federation Captain who handles Diplomacy and Science, stays true to the ideals of the federation and trys to be strong for the crew.

And her right hand, a Maquis XO, who handles combat situations, makes the hard calls and gives a **** about federation principles and always trys the "right" thing to get them home asap, without being a conscienceless dick.

This two things alone could have made awesome main and secondary plots.

 

Offline newman

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Agree with Angelus above. Kate Mulgrew's acting was so bad it occasionally made me embarrassed to be watching the show - even if I was completely alone in the house at the time.
Definitely the worst. Before The Old Man, I considered Picard to be the best sci fi command character. Of course, ol' Bill wipes the floor with all of the trek cast combined in it's entire history :)

edit: Snagger does bring up a valid point of Picard calling a conference in the middle of every tense situation; this could get ridiculous at times. "Captain, there's an unknown powerful enemy ship out there, not responding to hails, and they're targeting us!"
"Ok then. Time to pull every senior officer from the bridge into the conference room; the aliens hopefully won't fire on us while we're all listening to Troi telling us they're feeling anxiety." Patrick Stewart is at least a decent actor, however, so I didn't feel my IQ drop if he was assuming a more authoritative posture as I did with Janeway.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 01:45:51 pm by newman »
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline Angelus

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Agree with Angelus above. Kate Mulgrew's acting was so bad it occasionally made me embarrassed to be watching the show - even if I was completely alone in the house at the time.
Definitely the worst. Before The Old Man, I considered Picard to be the best sci fi command character. Of course, ol' Bill wipes the floor with all of the trek cast combined in it's entire history :)

This is so true.
On a side note, i heard that the old man was considered as an option to play the role of Captain Picard... i wonder what difference this would have made... probably not much, considering the scripts.
Not to bash Patrick Stewart, which is in my opinion a very good actor.

 

Offline The E

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TVTropes has several pages of Janeway being a horribly, horribly inconsistant character. Kate Mulgrew is only one part of the whole mess, the bigger part was that the writers never could decide how to portrait her.

Not to mention that they insisted on starting the whole series with one epic wallbanger, and got downhill from there.

Quote
Depending On The Writer: It's arguable that one reason for the Personality Of The Week portrayal of Captain Janeway was that writers were conflicted between making the first female Trek captain 'strong' versus the desire for her to appear 'feminine'. Thus Janeway would veer between Action Girl, Self-Destruct-The-Ship-Crazy, Team Mom, Staunch Leader, Noble Sufferer, Outrageous Flirt, Celibate Heroine, etc, etc, etc, much to actor Kate Mulgrew's irritation.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:17:35 pm by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Snagger

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I agree with all of your comments.  The point I'm trying to get at is that Voyager was much maligned, and for the most part deservedly so, but few remember its handful of good episodes.  meanwhile, TNG is vastly over-rated.  My view is that while TNG was on average the better show, the best few episodes of Voyager were better than any of the TOS, TNG or DS9 episodes.

 

Offline MR_T3D

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At least Janeway was decisive and tough; ridiculous at times, but the best Trek commander yet.
your forgetting Sisko and kirk, I'd say.
voyager was fairly entertaining, at times, but pretty head-banging dumb about as many times.  its best shows were as good as the great shows of the other series, but DS9, with "pale moonlight" is the best of trek in my books.  TNG was weak when it was too preachy, which it was for quite a bit of the first 2 seasons, I agree,

 

Offline Angelus

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well, Sisko and Kirk are good Captains too, all three well written and well acted, very very very rarely out of character. Unlike Janeway.
I haven't seen all of DS9 yet, but i've seen "in the pale moonlight", and i agree, that's a good episode, among the best of Trek.

 

Offline karajorma

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I agree with all of your comments.  The point I'm trying to get at is that Voyager was much maligned, and for the most part deservedly so, but few remember its handful of good episodes.  meanwhile, TNG is vastly over-rated.  My view is that while TNG was on average the better show, the best few episodes of Voyager were better than any of the TOS, TNG or DS9 episodes.

I've got to strongly disagree. TNG wiped the floor with Voyager when it was at its best. Compare the Borg in Best of Both Worlds with the same enemy in Scorpion and it shows. The Borg were truly scary in TNG. They were relentless, pitiless and almost unstoppable. When they had a weakness it was directly due to the way they operated as a hive mind and not some technobabble anti-Borg weapon.

In Voyager they were just a powerful enemy race. Even in the good Voyager episodes they weren't scary. 
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Offline StarSlayer

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You jerks are ignoring the best Starship Captain in space!

“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Angelus

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Who is this?






and Bill Adama is the best starship CO.  :P

 

Offline FraktuRe

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It's the man with no name, Zapp Brannigan!
Or something.
There’s nothing like the truth skewed into the mind of the insane.
- Fraktured Reality
The artist formerly known as Cl1nt.

 

Offline newman

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Who is this?

You didn't watch Futurama? Man, you're just letting the best in life pass you by :)
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline CooperHawkes

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Who is this?

:eek:

and i had such a good opinion of you.
take me out to the black,
tell 'em i ain't coming back,
i don't care, i'm still free,
you can't take the sky from me

 

Offline Hades

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So will he be the CO of the Sobek? >_>
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Angelus

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 :nervous: well, i haven't watched a lot of episodes of Futurama, actually only a few due  to ... RL issues ... and not having my TV in the room where the PC is ... and such.

 

Offline newman

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Well, fix your noob mistake and watch it already. Futurama is not optional.
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline Angelus

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Well, fix your noob mistake and watch it already. Futurama is not optional.

Resistence is futile, i guess?