Author Topic: Fighter discussion  (Read 8617 times)

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Offline Hades

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No, the enclave DESCENDED from former US government people after the world was nuked.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Some have suggested that we don't need fighters any more ... I think that is a hilarious notion but I guess it can't be helped.

Well if it happens in Canada's great time of need the lone CF-105 spirited away by W.A. Curtis will appear and defend the realm...

or so the legends say.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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I am not certain if anyone has made a distinction between different degrees of fly-by-wire technology.

Technically, any flight controls that don't include a mechanical linkage to hydraulics or control surfaces directly are fly-by-wire - they have electrical connections to the hydraulic servo valves.

Whether or not there are flight computers in the chain is a different matter altogether. Fly-by-wire can be done so that the position of the flight controllers affects the position of flight surfaces directly (blowdown limits notwithstanding), or so that flight controls send signals to flight computer, which determines what the pilot wants the airplane to do, and parses the pilot inputs into the most efficient way to achieve the desired results.

Flight computers can be used to augment stability, prevent the airplane from exceeding its designed flight envelope, prevent certain pilot errors from ending in a loss of control and crash, and in case of military aircraft, maximize the performance (such as flying right at the critical angle of attack to maximize the lift available from the wing), and manipulate control surfaces in a more complex way than is possible with just four traditional control axes (pitch, roll, yaw and throttle). Thrust vectoring is one example that is usually controlled by flight computers. Another example would be the system used in modern Airbus planes that enables full control over pitch, roll and yaw even in cases where flight control surfaces are partially disabled, such as manipulating the wing slats, flaps, spoilers and rudder to replicate the effect of a disabled aileron. And yet another example from Airbus A320 - if you are near the stall speed and push the nose up, the airplane automatically increases throttle, as demonstrated by Bruce Dickinson. Similarly, the plane can not be banked over certain limit...

As a rule of thumb - any aircraft that only has a joystick is also fly-by-wire by definition. However, for a pilot, there's really little difference how the control inputs are relayed to control surface positions - if it's a direct position translation, it's largely the same whether it's done electrically, mechanically or hydraulically.

Planes that have computerized fly-by-wire systems don't necessarily offer a direct way for pilot to put, say, elevators to maximum pitch-up deflection - they'll likely read that pilot wants to pitch up as fast as possible, then depending on the plane type and speed, move the elevator until the airframe's g-loading reaches maximum allowed, or critical angle of attack is achieved, which will achieve what the pilot wants.

Another rule of thumb - dynamically stable airplanes can be controlled by direct pilot inputs due to their tendency to fly by themselves (which is essentially what stability is). Flight surfaces are used to deflect the airplane from the balanced flight position.

Dynamically unstable aircraft require either reflexes of a jedi, or for more practical solution, active stability control by flight computer, since there the control surfaces need to be used to keep the airplane in a normal flight attitude as it tends to not stay in it by itself.

So, you can basically just look at planes designed before and after F-16 to define if the fighter is stable or unstable.

Stable planes can use direct flight controls, although there are other benefits from fly-by-wire that might mean the airplane still has electrical control linkages and even a flight computer.

Unstable planes require filtered control inputs handled by a flight computer.

Thus, the distinction between different types of fly-by-wire is fairly important.

As far as I know, the F/A-18 is dynamically stable airplane and can be flown with direct control inputs, but in normal flight, there are electronic flight aids that help the pilots in flying, letting them pay more attention to the radar, weapon, and nav systems management. There are also limitations to what you can do with just the pure hydraulic control system. A testament to that is the so-called "Frankenplane" crash. The Frankenplane was a Finnish Air Force Hornet which was contructed by taking the aft part of a damaged mid-air crash survivor F-18C (single seater), and joining it with a CF-18B front fuselage (two-seater), making it an essentially unique plane individual with unique wirings and such.

As the plane was on a test flight for determining if all the flight controls and such worked correctly, the flight control system apparently suffered a malfunction and was required to switch back to direct hydraulic control. Unfortunately, the plane was at the moment performing a vertical turn at low speed, nose pointing upwards and losing airspeed rapidly. With the flight aids disabled, it entered an unrecoverable dive and crashed. Both pilots ejected and survived.

At least that's what I've managed to parse together about the reasons for said crash.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline IceFire

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Canada needs a military?  Who in their right mind would invade Canada?
Nobody would necessarily want to invade us... But there are two counter arguments to that:

1) If we want to remain a sovereign nation with a country like the US to the south then we need to maintain our independence even while working together defending the continent.
2) If the security situation changes in 20 years time which is well within the lifespan of the fighter. If we have no fighters then we will likely not be able to buy and train in time to defend ourselves. If we do have fighters then we're ready to defend ourselves from whatever is required.
- IceFire
BlackWater Ops, Cold Element
"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."

 
Everyone needs a military, I know.  It's just that Canada seems such a low-value target with the U.S. south of the border. :P
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
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[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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entry point.  we had to attack france to get to germany didn't we? :P
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Canada needs a military?  Who in their right mind would invade Canada?

I think they're a bit nervous about the fact that they can't count on the Brits anymore, and don't quite get along with the US as smoothly as they'd like.
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Offline Demitri

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UK are getting them for the royal navy to replace the harriers on the new carriers that are being built. Problem is, first carrier will be built and have no plane to fly off them because the harriers have already been retired! Don't know if the RAF are taking any.
They were supposed to be, but the RN is now getting F18s instead.

First I'd heard of that. After the recent spending review of the British armed forces, ie the "don't give them another ****ing penny ever!" review, I'm not sure if that is still the route the MoD/government would be taking
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Offline Mars

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The thing that we always cope with in the US is that our defense spending is so high, yet it's also incredibly inefficient.

If we spend 10X what Great Britain does on defense, we should have a military 10X what Britain does.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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If we spend 10X what Great Britain does on defense, we should have a military 10X what Britain does.

If you've looked at the USN lately you'll realize we're doing better than that. By far.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Snagger

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Well, the RN have ditched the F35B and ordered the C model instead.  The F18s are to be an interim measure, probably leased rather than bought.  A much wiser decision - the B model had pitiful range and endurance, a pathetic payload and was going to be very susceptible to damage from battle, bird strikes and general wear and tear.  It was going to be a swine to maintain and have poor manoeuvrability compared to the other models, too.  That's all assuming they ever got it to be able to work in the first place, but with the lightened alloy bulkhead (replacing the titanium version to reduce weight so it could hover with a thimble of fuel and no stores) cracking in less than 1/10th of the designed fatigue life and so many software problems for the integrated avionic systems (didn't they learn from the MkVII Vipers? ;) ), I reckon it's only a matter of time and wasted public money before the B model is chopped - I think it's only the USMC that's still keen on it, and I gather they're becoming impatient too.

Getting rid of fighters can never happen - the UAVs can't execute their own combat tactics against a good human; it requires very intelligent AI that just doesn't exist, but more importantly, a human needs to be kept in the loop for the very same reason ASRAAMs are deemed more useful than AMRAAMs (and equivalent) and why the Pheonix was never replaced - BVR combat is purely theoretical, but real battle ROEs require visual identification of the target because IFF is so easily cocked up in multi service, multinational operations: the only ever real Pheonix kill was of an A6 returning to the same carrier as the F14 which shot it.  There is no point in carrying heavy, less agile medium or long range missiles if you need to visually confirm your target - ASRAAMs are much more useful and effective.

As for forward swept wings, they're not necessary.  Aerodynamic stability is achieved by having the aerodynamic centre of pressure for each axis behind the centre of gravity.  By putting the CoG far aft, you can have any wing shape you like, it'll still be unstable.  FSW has another big advantage of not having tip vortices, which are a major source of induced drag, but 4th gen fighters normally reduce tip vortex by fitting missile pylons or ECM pods on the tips, so it's not such a big problem.  FSW has other problems, mainly structural, so it's better to use more conventional delta or swept wings. 

Air intakes need to be kept under the nose or wing because top-side intakes like the YF23's cause intake turbulence or stagnation and compressor stalls at high AOA.  Experiments to increase pilots' G-tolerance by having them laying down on their backs or prone have been tried by the British in the 60s and were unsuccessful.  Synthetic vision in a fully reclined position may be more feasible with modern technology, but it's still a poor substitute for being able to see directly and being able to swivel your head quickly in a wheeling gun fight.  With full-body g-suits, there's now little need for such reclined positions.

 

Offline Snagger

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The thing that we always cope with in the US is that our defense spending is so high, yet it's also incredibly inefficient.

If we spend 10X what Great Britain does on defense, we should have a military 10X what Britain does.
If I recall correctly, you have 14 proper carriers, each with a huge airwing and a surface fleet of escort ships.  The RN has just had it's "through-deck cruisers" retired, so has no carriers, and has no fixed wing combat aircraft having lost the Sea Harriers in 2006 and the RAF's Harrier GR9s last month.  The new Type 45 Daring Class destroyers have been cut from 14 to 6, two of which are likely to be leased to the Saudis.  Their sensor suites have been pared back and their main weapon system, TACTOM, has been omitted.  The First Sea Lord has called them "the most expensive dug-out canoe ever built".  Even theeir new gun was scrapped and they have guns transplanted from their predecessor Type 42s.   The Type 25 Frigates have been cut too, and we're unlikely to get more than two Astute Class submarines.  Meanwhile, the RAF has lost all of it's combat aircraft except for a handful of Tornados (35, IIRC) and a few Typhoons.  The Tristar and VC10 transport and tanker fleets are to be replaced by a privately owned and joint-privately operated fleet of A330s with refuelling capability, but it has been revealed they they can't operate into Afghanistan as it's deemed to high a threat, so the RAF is going to lose its in-theatre troop transport and tanking capability.  The British Army has been equally stuffed over the last decade with rabid cut backs.

Of course, the politicians tried to spin it as a restructuring of agile, rapidly deployable and flexible forces, but that's a lie - how can you deploy forces if they have no reserves, transport ability or opportunity to train or recuperate between combat tours?

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Getting rid of fighters can never happen - the UAVs can't execute their own combat tactics against a good human; it requires very intelligent AI that just doesn't exist, but more importantly, a human needs to be kept in the loop for the very same reason ASRAAMs are deemed more useful than AMRAAMs (and equivalent) and why the Pheonix was never replaced - BVR combat is purely theoretical, but real battle ROEs require visual identification of the target because IFF is so easily cocked up in multi service, multinational operations: the only ever real Pheonix kill was of an A6 returning to the same carrier as the F14 which shot it.  There is no point in carrying heavy, less agile medium or long range missiles if you need to visually confirm your target - ASRAAMs are much more useful and effective.
Ah, that's something I hadn't thought of. Fair enough, then.

Ironic that the F-35 is supposedly a poor dogfighter then.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Yeah this is why I've always thought the era of the dogfight may end soon - visual range engagements will always remain the norm, at least until magic happens, and HOB heatseekers are so agile that kill probabilities may just ceiling.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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To be honest, the non-BVR engagement survives solely because of restrictive Rules of Engagement. Those won't last forever as forces get more networked. AWACs and the like mean it's no longer actually necessary, and BVR engagement has been conducted with SAMs enough by now that it's very clearly possible. They bagged a MiG-21 with a Telos at fifty miles back in Vietnam, and plenty of people got whacked by the Flying Telephone Pole.

Iraq One could have been fought entirely BVR and there would have been only one resulting friendly-fire incident. The capability to fight that way already exists and as long as it does, someone can take it and you will need to be able to respond in kind.
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Offline Dilmah G

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I reckon even if the use of BVR ordnance BVR is authorised, the dogfight is still going to be where it's at. Ranges of 20, 30, 40 miles are closed quickly enough by converging aircraft that if a pilot evades whatever's thrown at him BVR, it's going to fall back into a dogfight again.

They've been saying the end of the dogfight was around the corner for the last 50 years, and with that, they also said pilots were going to be obsolete in ten years, every ten years or so when something new came out.

To be honest, the non-BVR engagement survives solely because of restrictive Rules of Engagement. Those won't last forever as forces get more networked. AWACs and the like mean it's no longer actually necessary
I disagree. Remember the Gulf of Sidra? Tomcats and Fitters tangled until the Fitters had the nerve to deploy ordnance. The RoE in those circumstances isn't something I feel is going to change. As long as it's reactive, in the sense that the BLUFOR can only fire in response the the OPFOR, you're always going to have scenarios like well, that entire week.

EDIT: used receptive instead of reactive. Oops!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 10:37:32 pm by Dilmah G »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Because there wasn't a declared war. You're discussing a scenario completely different from mine. :P

The trend has been away from the no-fly zone and games of chicken in the west because aircraft are too expensive to be risked like that, and the same expense means that things are very different from on the ground where there are many spurious targets that shouldn't be killed. It's much easier to keep tabs on and sort aircraft. Dogfighting will still be necessary, certainly, but as aircraft grow fewer in number and more expensive, closing to the merge is less and less attractive.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline IceFire

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Getting rid of fighters can never happen - the UAVs can't execute their own combat tactics against a good human; it requires very intelligent AI that just doesn't exist, but more importantly, a human needs to be kept in the loop for the very same reason ASRAAMs are deemed more useful than AMRAAMs (and equivalent) and why the Pheonix was never replaced - BVR combat is purely theoretical, but real battle ROEs require visual identification of the target because IFF is so easily cocked up in multi service, multinational operations: the only ever real Pheonix kill was of an A6 returning to the same carrier as the F14 which shot it.  There is no point in carrying heavy, less agile medium or long range missiles if you need to visually confirm your target - ASRAAMs are much more useful and effective.
Ah, that's something I hadn't thought of. Fair enough, then.

Ironic that the F-35 is supposedly a poor dogfighter then.
There seems to be conflicting reports... the F-35 is supposedly a poor dogfighter and then other comparisons suggest that although the wingloading is higher than a F-16 the power is also higher and the aerodynamics are very good leading to an aircraft with F-16 level agility which is nothing to sneeze at. If that's the case then it's considerably better than virtually everything except the very latest Sukhoi and the Typhoon. Of course it depends on what the armament is at the time but that matters to most jets... a fully loaded Typhoon or Su-35 aren't going to be doing much top level dog fighting either.

The wildcard in all of this is that there has not been a 5th gen fighter engagement ever. The introduction of helmet mounted sights, thrust vectored missiles alone could help rewrite some of the books on dogfighting. It used to be about putting the enemy in front of you but if an off aspect angle kill is possible and reliably possible then the launching aircraft needs only be agile enough to make that angle possible. Doesn't mean you can fly freight train around with AIM-9Xs hanging off of it but it does mean that you don't necessarily have to maneuver quite so much.
- IceFire
BlackWater Ops, Cold Element
"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."

 

Offline IceFire

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Oh and also I wanted to share...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5t6R9faLf8

Found this the other day while Googling the PAK-FA. What an aircraft! The Russians seem very pleased.. I think Putin may have had a slight tremble resembling a smile :)
- IceFire
BlackWater Ops, Cold Element
"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Well its certainly is prettier then the F-22.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”