[Mars]

Honestly, religion is the ultimate leash in general; but I think that the conditions in the Middle East could not have happened through religion alone. Exploitation, war, and poverty are probably the main drivers. Religion is just a tool. That's my guess anyway.

[MP-Ryan]

Honestly, religion is the ultimate leash in general; but I think that the conditions in the Middle East could not have happened through religion alone. Exploitation, war, and poverty are probably the main drivers. Religion is just a tool. That's my guess anyway.

There's a lot of really solid evidence for that position.

Historically, religion has been used by the powerful as a means to exert control over the masses - a tool made more powerful still by social and economic repression (as Battuta has been saying).  Fundamentalist religion is the vehicle through which power brokers move, and socioeconomic deprivation is the fuel that powers the vehicle.

This fairly basic truth is repeated through history; from Babylon, to Greece, to Rome, to the Crusades, to the Inquisition, to the conflicts that ravaged Ireland for centuries, and through many, many other examples, it should be fairly evident that it is not the belief system of the religion that matters, but the socioeconomic circumstances of the people who practice it and the geopolitical objectives of their leaders.

Islam is only the latest religion to be used in this way.  Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, and yes, even Buddhists have all had their own troubles with mis-use of religious doctrine (and in many cases, still do).

It is no coincidence that fundamentalism and extremism within the broader religion of Islam have only really exploded since the Second World War.

[Mars]

Actually during the Crusades, both the Muslims and the Christians took up staunch fundamentalist positions. To be fair though, they were historically less extreme.

I believe it was the Battle of Lepanto  in which the commander of the Ottoman fleet told the Christian oar slaves that they would be freed should they come out victorious

[Scotty]

And also all about the money.  That's what the Crusades were really for, opening the silk road and pilfering the Holy Land.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Didn't the Conquistadores use Christianity to exterminate the Incas and loot their gold?

[redsniper]

I'd say the guns and steel cuirasses helped a bit too.

[Mars]

I'd say the guns and steel cuirasses helped a bit too.

Dammit, beat me to it.

[General Battuta]

And the germs, most.

[Flipside]

Well, strictly speaking it was a mixture, the Conquistadors bought smallpox to the Incas (and then, ironically, told them it was a punishment from God for Idolatory) and then the Spanish king gave the go-ahead for the War against the Incas, and by that stage they were in no condition to fight.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Oh yeah, I forgot the germs bit...

[Scotty]

Didn't the Conquistadores use Christianity to exterminate the Incas and loot their gold?

For the same reason that the Crusades went off.  All Mostly about the gold.  Yeah, the people doing the dirty work probably thought it was God's work, but for the people who commanded them, and thereby got the mulah, I doubt it mattered.

[Beskargam]

so what happens when the middle east runs out of oil? then they wont have any source of income (not that much of the money makes it down to the little people anyway)

[Flipside]

Aside from China, the Middle East is still one of the most mineral rich areas in the world, copper, nickel, zinc etc, as well as some of the rarer metals used in Electronics, often come either from Africa or the Middle East.

That's why I always find it slightly amusing when people talk about Muslim/Christian confrontations, because it has never, and will never, be about who they are, what they believe, or how they go about believing it. It's always been about what they have, and we've been getting involved in the politics of the area, keeping it unstable for decades.

[Beskargam]

have those resources been developed yet?

[Flipside]

Some of them have, but many of them are deposits that have only been found recently, or, at the very least, reported recently, so a lot of development would be required if it is to be mined in large quantities.

[Beskargam]

so could these be exploited to reduce the socioeconomic imbalance and overall general poverty and bring stability to the region ? or would it not happen with the cuurent regimes in place? essiantially what would happen if those resources were developed?

[Flipside]

Well, as an example, take the large copper reserves recently found in Afghanistan, if it were developed by Afghanistan, and if that money was re-invested in infrastructure and social development without being pocketed by various officials along the way, then it could contribute several billion dollars to the country. and probably go a fair way to allowing them to develop their education further, which is the dynamo that powers a country.

The main stumbling blocks are foreign and internal interference, and corruption in the Government, the problem being that it is a vicious circle, many of these problems exist because of the same weak infrastructure.

[Nuclear1]

I'd say the guns and steel cuirasses helped a bit too.

And the germs, most.

I remember reading that book back in high school...

[NGTM-1R]

Everyone who credits the germs is severely overestimating the ability of a relatively undisciplined army to advance in the face of firearms. These aren't the Zulus, who had practical experience and a level of discipline and unit cohesion nearly the same as the people they faced. They're the Incas and Aztecs, they're operating in a mode of personal combat and "charge in a screaming mass" that the Roman Legions obsoleted in Europe a very long time ago using far less impressive equipment.

(Granted it took about until the conquistadors for military units to develop the same kind of discipline and cohesion as a Legion of the late Republic, but the point stands.)

[General Battuta]

nah man, it was the pox