Author Topic: Total size of GTVA armada  (Read 8978 times)

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Beware using modern naval ship classes as a direct comparison; the FS navies have much larger ship series than we do.  Many US ship classes in WWII, for example, were only a few ships, even though they had broadly similar capabilities to all the other ships of the same type in the fleet.  Therefore, to get a better comparison, you should look at real navy totals by type, not class.  Anyway, during WWII, the US built 141 carriers of all types (110 were merely escorts), 10 BB's, 48 cruisers, 349 DD's, 498 DE's, and 203 subs, along thousands of minelayers, coastal patrol ships, landing craft, etc.  If we want to do a direct translation to the GTVA (I don't think that's really all that accurate, but whatever), they have ~70-80 destroyers, about twice that many corvettes, and almost 1,000 cruisers.  From a naval organization standpoint, this makes a lot of sense to me, but it still doesn't square up with what we see in universe, since cruisers aren't just thrown around like they were free candy.

The only example of yours I have a problem, Battuta, is the first.  Why respond to what is simply a cruiser and some fighters (at that point, anyway) with some enormous force?  Sure, it's the Shivans, but even a destroyer was probably overkill at that point, no matter if the GTVA had 50 or 500.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Because of the marginal returns on overresponse vs. underresponse. With an unknown node open and Shivans on the other side, you want maximal force on the scene (so long as you don't seriously compromise your depth), no questions asked.

 

Offline Drogoth

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Because of the marginal returns on overresponse vs. underresponse. With an unknown node open and Shivans on the other side, you want maximal force on the scene (so long as you don't seriously compromise your depth), no questions asked.

FS2 covered in exhaustive depth the hubris of the GTVA, which would explain sending only the Carthage.

As for a ten destroyer force giving them trouble, this is a rebellion. There could be defectors everywhere at any time, hell, the Trinity only defected 3 weeks before we encounter it. What if most of the fleet was sabotaged or disabled in drydock? Or crews being beached until the traitors could be weeded from the loyalists?

Also look at combat in FS. There really aren't effective jump node blockades that can 'cork' a system. The situations appear to be very fluid, in that ships can hide in star systems and quickly move to other star systems. Ten destroyers could be a significant thorn in the side of a 200 (well cut to 190 now) destroyer fleet, and guaranteed the fleet could in no way nail down those units with overwhelming force.

As for the point you raised about the Psamtik being a tragedy yes thats true but what about the Phoenicia? Command just threw her out there like a big paperweight. The point made earlier about just casually destroying the Vindicator was a good one as well. Why not disable and capture?

And returning to the Psamtik, could it be argued that command placed a higher emphasis on its loss because you were flying in a wing deployed FROM the Psamtik?

The GAME may exist to do service to better the mission, but the universe within itself doesn't serve that purpose, and from the numbers and attitudes available, I am of the opinion that they fleet is larger then the opinion you have. Canonically, I just think it makes sense for them to have a larger fleet then 70 being on the high end. Whether they effectively USE that fleet is up for grabs, and I personally think the GTVA sucks at strategy, but thats just me.
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Offline Marcov

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
At a helluva of points we see that descriptions usually contradict gameplay.

One of these points is the total fleet assets the GTVA has. We never see a squadron-sized force of  cruisers of the same class, at the same side in any mission. Like always, realism in FreeSpace is usually sacrificed for more enjoyable gameplay. As mentioned already several times, "how is the player going to have any effect on a battle if the enemy has 50 cruisers in one battle?"

Still, I think I've made it quite accurate for the estimations of the GTVA fleet size. Around 70 destroyers, possibly several hundred corvettes (maybe 400 of them) and over a couple thousand cruisers, making the GTVA navy count to around 3,000.
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
FS2 covered in exhaustive depth the hubris of the GTVA, which would explain sending only the Carthage.

Highly debateable. I've made this case before. It seems much more likely they represented all available assets that could simply drop everything at the moment.

As for a ten destroyer force giving them trouble, this is a rebellion. There could be defectors everywhere at any time, hell, the Trinity only defected 3 weeks before we encounter it. What if most of the fleet was sabotaged or disabled in drydock? Or crews being beached until the traitors could be weeded from the loyalists?

Assumes facts not in evidence. It's much easier to point to existent game mechanics (subspace nodes) providing a natural chokepoint that hinders the GTVA bringing its strength to bear.

Also look at combat in FS. There really aren't effective jump node blockades that can 'cork' a system.

wat

Did you even play The King's Gambit? How about all those NTF ships that died making the run to Gamma Drac? Park three Orions and fightercraft complements at a node and let me know if something gets through before you start talking about "really aren't effective jump node blockades".

The situations appear to be very fluid, in that ships can hide in star systems and quickly move to other star systems. Ten destroyers could be a significant thorn in the side of a 200 (well cut to 190 now) destroyer fleet, and guaranteed the fleet could in no way nail down those units with overwhelming force.

Why? Let's be blunt here; you sight, you blockade the exits, and you let him sit there and run out of air, food, fuel, and ordnance. Without repairs or sources of supply any military force is ultimately doomed. The NTF has to be able to keep the GTVA from bringing overwhelming force to bear on not just its ships, but its shipyards, factories, population centers, farms, spaceports. These are fixed targets. The only way to keep them safe is to keep enemy ships out of the system. The only way to do that is with node blockades.

As for the point you raised about the Psamtik being a tragedy yes thats true but what about the Phoenicia? Command just threw her out there like a big paperweight. The point made earlier about just casually destroying the Vindicator was a good one as well. Why not disable and capture?

A destroyer has a crew of 10,000. It has enough physical space inside it for each one of them to have five or ten or even twenty compartments all to themselves. Any attempt to board and capture a destroyer that does not surrender will require the services of at least a half-dozen regiments of infantry just to conduct a proper sweep and secure operation, during which at any point it could be self-destructed by the detonation of magazines, fuel stores, or power plant. Unless the ship has actually formally surrendered, the risks involved and the resources required make the capture of a destroyer distinctly unattractive.

The Phoencia was given the order to block. To consider it "casually thrown away" in the face of an opponent like the Sathanas and the threat a Sathanas represents to any inhabited world (and lest we forget, Capella had at least one) is a gross misunderstanding of the situation. The GTVA needed time to assemble a defense. The Phoenica was assigned to buy it. All military assets are ultimately, by their nature, expendable on some level. A destroyer, whether they have 70 or 200 or 2000, is a very small price compared to the loss of an inhabited planet.
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Offline Liberator

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
That post just made realize that the captain of the Phonecia is the most human character in all of FS.  She tries to save her crew when ordered to sacrifice all of them.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
That post just made realize that the captain of the Phonecia is the most human character in all of FS.  She tries to save her crew when ordered to sacrifice all of them.

Well, she actually didnt' save them. If she had more nerves, then she could well have deserted the ship from the battle, and faced a court martial afterwards. Perhaps she would have died, but she would have saved ten thousand lives. Instead, she merely whined and then sat there waiting for the blow. Never was someone who I admired. At least Command had the balls to pressure her to sacrifice everybody. Command is dickish, but hey at least it's a dick with balls.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Btw, I hear all the arguments back and forth, and while I'm emotionally attached to the idea of the GTVA having lots of destroyers, etc., I think GB has the strongest points overall.

Regarding the thousands of cruisers we should be seeing all over the place, if one is to make the comparison to the US fleet, well it doesn't have to do exclusively with gameplay. It's also about "Framerate" and actual ship limits. I'm sure that volition wouldn't have minded to have done missions with dozens of cruisers getting on each other while you must fly between the beam shots to get into a sniper position to kill something very specific, or whatever.

For instance, in BP WiH, I think it would be great if one could get to see in real time other battle stations being totally destroyed by tev destroyers, and while you are thinking "I'm avoiding the death of this station, hurrrah", you are getting incoming messages and visual confirmation of the disasters occurring elsewhere. That would be a terrifying but epic moment right there.

But something's got to give. FSO just doesn't have the raw power to show things in its full epicness.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Because of the marginal returns on overresponse vs. underresponse. With an unknown node open and Shivans on the other side, you want maximal force on the scene (so long as you don't seriously compromise your depth), no questions asked.

FS2 covered in exhaustive depth the hubris of the GTVA, which would explain sending only the Carthage.

No it didn't. Or it did, but in a manner much more sophisticated than what you're proposing, and which in no way explains only sending the Carthage.

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As for a ten destroyer force giving them trouble, this is a rebellion. There could be defectors everywhere at any time, hell, the Trinity only defected 3 weeks before we encounter it. What if most of the fleet was sabotaged or disabled in drydock? Or crews being beached until the traitors could be weeded from the loyalists?

You're literally just making this up. They've had eighteen months. This was never mentioned.

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Also look at combat in FS. There really aren't effective jump node blockades that can 'cork' a system. The situations appear to be very fluid, in that ships can hide in star systems and quickly move to other star systems. Ten destroyers could be a significant thorn in the side of a 200 (well cut to 190 now) destroyer fleet, and guaranteed the fleet could in no way nail down those units with overwhelming force.

There are effective blockades. The second mission of the game contains the leader of the NTF shrieking about how effective a blockade is. And this argument is actually beautifully self-defeating; if these ten destroyers couldn't be pinned down and destroyed with overwhelming force, how were they instead taken down in one-on-one duels with single Allied destroyers? Why, when they finally fell, were they generally destroyed by the same Allied warships, the Psamtik and Colossus?

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As for the point you raised about the Psamtik being a tragedy yes thats true but what about the Phoenicia? Command just threw her out there like a big paperweight. The point made earlier about just casually destroying the Vindicator was a good one as well. Why not disable and capture?

The Phoenicia was thrown in front of the Sathanas, which Command believed was the biggest threat since the Lucifer. The Vindicator was a ship with 10,000 crew; trying to capture it would have been a bloodbath.

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And returning to the Psamtik, could it be argued that command placed a higher emphasis on its loss because you were flying in a wing deployed FROM the Psamtik?

I dunno, why would they say 'a tragedy for all Vasudans', it's not like the entire species was flying off the Psamtik.

Look, when the plan was to destroy the Sathanas with the main guns of the Allied fleet's capital ships, you know how many destroyers they sent? Three. The GTVA was in full-on panic mode at that point. How do you only send three destroyers if you have 200?

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The GAME may exist to do service to better the mission, but the universe within itself doesn't serve that purpose, and from the numbers and attitudes available, I am of the opinion that they fleet is larger then the opinion you have. Canonically, I just think it makes sense for them to have a larger fleet then 70 being on the high end. Whether they effectively USE that fleet is up for grabs, and I personally think the GTVA sucks at strategy, but thats just me.

The universe should exist to service the gameplay as close as possible. That's what a good ludonarrative does.

I think that opinion is completely unsubstantiated and does not hold up to the weight of ten years of reviewing the available facts. I think it makes no sense, and I think that this ancient argument that the GTVA is stupid is basically a forum meme that does not hold up to any sort of analysis.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 07:34:38 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
That post just made realize that the captain of the Phonecia is the most human character in all of FS.  She tries to save her crew when ordered to sacrifice all of them.

Well, she actually didnt' save them. If she had more nerves, then she could well have deserted the ship from the battle, and faced a court martial afterwards. Perhaps she would have died, but she would have saved ten thousand lives. Instead, she merely whined and then sat there waiting for the blow. Never was someone who I admired. At least Command had the balls to pressure her to sacrifice everybody. Command is dickish, but hey at least it's a dick with balls.

Dude, the Phoenicia jumps out.  :rolleyes:

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For instance, in BP WiH, I think it would be great if one could get to see in real time other battle stations being totally destroyed by tev destroyers, and while you are thinking "I'm avoiding the death of this station, hurrrah", you are getting incoming messages and visual confirmation of the disasters occurring elsewhere. That would be a terrifying but epic moment right there.

That pretty much happened in bp2m05, but there aren't messages calling it out so it's easy to miss.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
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The Vindicator was a ship with 10,000 crew; trying to capture it would have been a bloodbath.

This makes sense. But there's an alternative, I think. Disable the ship's weapons and engines. Negotiate with the crew the surrendering. If there's anyone hiding in there for a sneak attack, just blow up the ship and then execute the officers. Make it so that the threat of anihilation is superior to the temptation of planting some kind of trap.

Idk, perhaps it's useless. Such destroyers may become unusable, since there's always the chance they are rigged in the process of surrender. But at least you are saving lives and showing to the dissenters that you do care for their lives, and you will not butcher them like a raving lunatic, giving them a chance to surrender as well.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
That post just made realize that the captain of the Phonecia is the most human character in all of FS.  She tries to save her crew when ordered to sacrifice all of them.

Well, she actually didnt' save them. If she had more nerves, then she could well have deserted the ship from the battle, and faced a court martial afterwards. Perhaps she would have died, but she would have saved ten thousand lives. Instead, she merely whined and then sat there waiting for the blow. Never was someone who I admired. At least Command had the balls to pressure her to sacrifice everybody. Command is dickish, but hey at least it's a dick with balls.

Dude, the Phoenicia jumps out.  :rolleyes:

Really? The feeling I have right now is when someone well versed in astronomy suddenly tells me the sun is actually blue. It's a mixed feeling. For one hand I have to believe you, you are so well versed in the stuff. On the other hand, I can't but trust my eyes...


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That pretty much happened in bp2m05, but there aren't messages calling it out so it's easy to miss.

Ok. Such messages would somewhat resemble the last mission in FS2, with all the despair implied.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
You could try to besiege the Vindicator, but given the situation - the NTF was about to mount 'a credible offensive' on the Knossos - I think that straight out reducing their firepower was the priority.

And the Phoenicia will jump out if it survives the first beam salvo, which it sometimes will. So it doesn't always happen. Some people claim to have never seen it, for others it happens reliably.

 

Offline Marcov

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Actually I brought up the issue of the Vindicator primarily to justify my rejection of destroyers being too expensive and tedious to build. Like I said, given that it took 2 decades to build the Colly wouldn't it take also 2 decades to build a destroyer, since assumably there is much less manpower done in the latter's construction?

Many members counter this statement by saying "No. The 20-year period took not just the actual construction of the ship, but the planning, the hiring, the blueprints, the retrofitting of new beam cannons and all sorts of expensive weaponry". Perhaps so...

Although I find the discrimination of the importance on destroyers pretty interesting. For example, the Vindicator was raped like crap immediately by a few bomber wings, yet the NTD Repulse was given 2 chances to surrender. Even the Belisarius was given a chance to surrender (imagine, a corvette was given some mercy yet the Vindicator wasn't!). Also the loss of the Phoenicia (although this is based on chance depending if it actually manages to jump out) seems to fruit out much less grievance and a decrease in morale, than the destruction of the Psamtik, as already said previously. Then again, it might've been due to the fact that the player was serving aboard the ship herself, not just watching her die.
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

~FreeSpace: The Battle of Endor (voice dub)~
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9K9-Y1JBTE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQanXDRAXM
Part 3/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBLKYt_oG0

Old (original) videos:
Part 1/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ygskaoUtE
Part 2/4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uoPTksBlI

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Idk, perhaps it's useless. Such destroyers may become unusable, since there's always the chance they are rigged in the process of surrender. But at least you are saving lives and showing to the dissenters that you do care for their lives, and you will not butcher them like a raving lunatic, giving them a chance to surrender as well.

Any crew worth being called military would render the ship harmless before they surrendered as a matter of course; and you'd want it that way anyways, so they can't power up the guns without warning while you try to take possession. You're not going to take the ship intact even if it surrenders.

More to the point, the survivors of the NTF military who have made it to Gamma Drac are already demonstrably diehards who will not surrender. They have followed orders that have resulted in severe losses for the NTF and probably destroyed it's ability to successfully protect its territorial holdings and either stalemate or win the war. If they'd stayed in Polaris, you might have had a shot at making them see reason. But these guys? If they had any sense they would have packed in the towel when the Colossus broke the Polaris blockades.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I don't think it's impossible to argue a 200-destroyer navy, you could probably wiggle it out of the available canon information. I just think it's far less probable than smaller numbers.

Taking the 12 Terran fleets figure as the closest to canon we've got, with 35 Terran destroyers you can do just under 3 per fleet, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. With 200 you've now got 17 destroyers per fleet, which just seems absurd. There should have been 17 destroyers in Capella ready to roll to Gamma Draconis; even leaving most as a strategic reserve you should've seen six or seven at the Knossos.

You could argue for far more Terran fleets but eventually you run straight out of systems to put them in.

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More to the point, the survivors of the NTF military who have made it to Gamma Drac are already demonstrably diehards who will not surrender. They have followed orders that have resulted in severe losses for the NTF and probably destroyed it's ability to successfully protect its territorial holdings and either stalemate or win the war. If they'd stayed in Polaris, you might have had a shot at making them see reason. But these guys? If they had any sense they would have packed in the towel when the Colossus broke the Polaris blockades.

Exactly. They already ran a gauntlet of blockades, presumably shooting in the process. They're the die-hards.

 

Offline Drogoth

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I never said they DID have traitors running back and forth, I said that could be a possible explanation for not seeing large numbers of fleet units.
But arguing 'they've had eighteen months' doesn't work because the trinity defected only three weeks before the Aquitaine crosses the Knossos. Additionally, Alpha 1 stages himself as a deserter and joins the rebel ranks for his covert op, which means the rebels had a structure in place to quickly integrate defectors and that it was still common, or at least not uncommon enough to cause issues, for a pilot to defect EIGHTEEN MONTHS after the beginning of the rebellion. That's a pretty major security/loyalty concern on the part of the GTVA.

As for jump node blockades, yes of course i've played the King's Gambit. And that blockade leaked like a colander! Even if Alpha 1's group kills all ships that jump in, he's either godlike or lucky as hell because in your debrief your told that your group was the ONLY one that didn't have leakers. This I might add, is after MULTIPLE SUCCESSIVE blockades. If they are still a fighting force capable of mounting a 'credible' offensive on the Knossos after running a gauntlet of blockades, then blockades are simply not good enough to guarantee that you can trap a force in a system for a long enough period of time o nail them down. A major rebel force could simultaneously crash jump a node and escape a 'blockaded' system no problem if a 3 destroyer led force can run multiple blockades leading to drac. Further more, they 'somehow outmaneuvered the colossus and her battlegroup' so they can't be that easy to tack down.

On the topic of the vindicator, I see your point, and concede the point that expediency probably had a higher priority then capture. But Koth was given a chance. Why not the Vindicator if time had allowed? Yes capping a destroyer would be painful... but disable, disarm, tow to secure location and starve them if you have to. I get that in the Vindicator's case, fanaticism may have made that unlikely, but if you only have 70 of these things, ten have defected, and you lost at least one to the new shivan incursion, you'd think command would at least ASK for a surrender. The worst they can do is say no.

On the Phoenicia, I'm not arguing they shouldn't have deployed the Phoenicia to engage, im saying camping a Destroyer directly in front of a ship that we KNOW has overwhelming firepower through the bow, is stupid as hell. The whole reason we're deployed is to disable the Sath's beam cannons because if we don't, the Colossus will get boned. If the beam cannons are that dangerous, why have we camped a destroyer right in front of it? If destroyers were so uncommon, we should be just a little more intelligent about tactical plans. Engage from the side for example, Alpha 1 gave command some decent recon on this ships capabilities. Except the whole, blowing up suns thing but I don't even think we would have known what to look for there.

On the Psamtik, if your block gets blown up, and an authority figure, say I dunno, the towns mayor or something is talking to you about it after you watched it happen from three blocks away, does he say "This is a tragedy for you and anyone who was directly associated with people who lived on your block" or does he say  "this is  tragedy for our whole town, we share in your pain"? I still think the psamtik was emphasized because we served aboard her. She was also a flagship of a fleet, that's another reason that ship is more significant then others.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I never said they DID have traitors running back and forth, I said that could be a possible explanation for not seeing large numbers of fleet units.
But arguing 'they've had eighteen months' doesn't work because the trinity defected only three weeks before the Aquitaine crosses the Knossos. Additionally, Alpha 1 stages himself as a deserter and joins the rebel ranks for his covert op, which means the rebels had a structure in place to quickly integrate defectors and that it was still common, or at least not uncommon enough to cause issues, for a pilot to defect EIGHTEEN MONTHS after the beginning of the rebellion. That's a pretty major security/loyalty concern on the part of the GTVA.

The period of major defections was clearly over. If it wasn't, it would have been a narrative issue. The Trinity and its crew were almost certainly sleeper agents that Bosch planned to use to activate the portal.

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As for jump node blockades, yes of course i've played the King's Gambit. And that blockade leaked like a colander! Even if Alpha 1's group kills all ships that jump in, he's either godlike or lucky as hell because in your debrief your told that your group was the ONLY one that didn't have leakers. This I might add, is after MULTIPLE SUCCESSIVE blockades. If they are still a fighting force capable of mounting a 'credible' offensive on the Knossos after running a gauntlet of blockades, then blockades are simply not good enough to guarantee that you can trap a force in a system for a long enough period of time o nail them down. A major rebel force could simultaneously crash jump a node and escape a 'blockaded' system no problem if a 3 destroyer led force can run multiple blockades leading to drac. Further more, they 'somehow outmaneuvered the colossus and her battlegroup' so they can't be that easy to tack down.

This is an argument for fewer destroyers, not more. For jump node blockades to be leaky, they cannot routinely have 30 or 40 destroyers piled on them, which they would if 200 destroyers (!) were available. Nor would the Knossos be so lightly defended.

By arguing that blockades are weak you argue for few destroyers.

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On the topic of the vindicator, I see your point, and concede the point that expediency probably had a higher priority then capture. But Koth was given a chance. Why not the Vindicator if time had allowed? Yes capping a destroyer would be painful... but disable, disarm, tow to secure location and starve them if you have to. I get that in the Vindicator's case, fanaticism may have made that unlikely, but if you only have 70 of these things, ten have defected, and you lost at least one to the new shivan incursion, you'd think command would at least ASK for a surrender. The worst they can do is say no.

Koth was a leader. His surrender would have implied the surrender of those under him. The Vindicator was clearly not going to surrender after refusing to give up in Polaris, or at any node it passed.

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On the Phoenicia, I'm not arguing they shouldn't have deployed the Phoenicia to engage, im saying camping a Destroyer directly in front of a ship that we KNOW has overwhelming firepower through the bow, is stupid as hell. The whole reason we're deployed is to disable the Sath's beam cannons because if we don't, the Colossus will get boned. If the beam cannons are that dangerous, why have we camped a destroyer right in front of it? If destroyers were so uncommon, we should be just a little more intelligent about tactical plans. Engage from the side for example, Alpha 1 gave command some decent recon on this ships capabilities. Except the whole, blowing up suns thing but I don't even think we would have known what to look for there.

The Phoenicia's mass might have prevented the Shivans from jumping for a few extra seconds. High Noon isn't a very well-designed mission, but if it were, having a few extra seconds on the Bearbaiting side might well have made a difference. It's easy to condemn the decision looking back, but that's hindsight bias.

And no this isn't an argument for rare destroyers. If the second Lucifer is bearing down on you, for all you know headed on a beeline for Earth (and it just jumped one unstable node), you do what you need to do to slow it down. With the Colossus on the line, a destroyer could be a necessary sacrifice, and FS2 command is nothing if not pragmatic.

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On the Psamtik, if your block gets blown up, and an authority figure, say I dunno, the towns mayor or something is talking to you about it after you watched it happen from three blocks away, does he say "This is a tragedy for you and anyone who was directly associated with people who lived on your block" or does he say  "this is  tragedy for our whole town, we share in your pain"? I still think the psamtik was emphasized because we served aboard her. She was also a flagship of a fleet, that's another reason that ship is more significant then others.

She was a flagship of a battle group; the Vasudans don't even have clear Fleets. Every destroyer loss in the game is described as either a major victory (if enemy) or a significant blow (the Delacroix, the Psamtik, so on.)

None of these feel like compelling arguments to me. At best they're shaky rebuttals to peripheral points; you never addressed the issue of where the hell all these notional destroyers are, or how the hell they could pack 200 destroyers into ~12 fleets.

This argument feels pretty wrapped up. FreeSpace 2 gives us a sample of the total GTVA destroyer population, gives us an idea of the size of the sample by invoking the fleets involved (by the end of the campaign, 'most of our fleet'), and thus leads us to a conclusion. The most probable suggested FS2 destroyer count is pretty clearly in the 50-80 range.

The Colossus is the nail in the coffin. There is no reason to build that ship if you have 200 destroyers. The firepower it can bring to bear is utterly insignificant.

 
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Keep in mind that the phonecia is sexp'd to jump out, so canonically, it survives. we also dont know how large the gtva is. you are just 1 pilot, on 1 destroyer in 1 engagement at a time. you dont jump around between players at random. for all we know, there are 12 other fronts for 12 other wars that are less significant than the shivan incursion. also the destroyers we see can likely be assumed from lack of evidence saying otherwise, that all the fs2 ships are part of 1, or maybe 2 fleets per speciies.

 

Offline SypheDMar

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Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I think the Phoenicia's fate is ambiguous. Sometimes it dies. Sometimes it lives. Though FS2 defaults on Easy mode, it has a higher chance of dying in any other mode higher.