[Sushi]

"You must understand, young Hobbit, it takes a long time to say anything in Old Entish Java. And we never say anything unless it is worth taking a long time to say. "

[Flipside]

Can't say I've encountered that specific problem. Will admit, if I were to say Java has one specific weakness, it's the fact it can almost encourage over-design, you start trying to split things up into Interfaces and Superclasses etc, and if you're not careful, you can get carried away with the whole thing

[CP5670]

Actually, in my experience, Java is becoming more and more common in Finance for client-level programs

You may be right about that. I was thinking more along the lines of the quant trading software they use internally, which is almost always in C++, although some outfits use specialized low level languages.

[sayoqod]

Java is the first programming class I'm taking for my Comp Sci major...so far, pretty much the same as C++

[Flipside]

It has a great deal of common ancestry as far as structure/syntax is concerned. The real programming differences are the fact it is far more designed around Object Orientation, it likes to be split up into Classes, it only allows one Superclass for each Class (Which can be a pain) and it doesn't allow the kind of memory access facilities that C++ does. It demands a lot less 'cleanliness' from the programmer because of the internal Garbage collection, but you pay for that in other ways.

[Ghostavo]

Although I use Java a lot, which featured in most of my course work and whatnot (my dissertation is going to be implemented in Java even), some decisions by the language designers and the standards libraries leave a lot to be desired.

The last annoying one I've encountered was the PriorityQueue implementations.

It withholds a method as private that would allow you to reorder the queue correctly if you changed one of its elements. As it is, you have to remove the element and add it again, which means instead of a O(log n) operation you have a O(n) one.

[sayoqod]

It has a great deal of common ancestry as far as structure/syntax is concerned. The real programming differences are the fact it is far more designed around Object Orientation, it likes to be split up into Classes, it only allows one Superclass for each Class (Which can be a pain) and it doesn't allow the kind of memory access facilities that C++ does. It demands a lot less 'cleanliness' from the programmer because of the internal Garbage collection, but you pay for that in other ways.

'cleanliness' was never really a problem for me. Ah well, I suppose I'll see how it goes

[Flipside]

Although I use Java a lot, which featured in most of my course work and whatnot (my dissertation is going to be implemented in Java even), some decisions by the language designers and the standards libraries leave a lot to be desired.

The last annoying one I've encountered was the PriorityQueue implementations.

It withholds a method as private that would allow you to reorder the queue correctly if you changed one of its elements. As it is, you have to remove the element and add it again, which means instead of a O(log n) operation you have a O(n) one.

Yeah, there are a few like that, one that annoys me is that certain elements of the Observable class are Protected, which means that you cannot observe things outside the package it is operating in.

[Nuke]

Agreed, I'm not saying, nor would I ever say, that one is better or worse than the other, but declaring "**** java" because it doesn't suit your own programming purposes is just plain wrong, I suppose that's the point I'm trying to make

I'll split this out and move it to Programming because it's pretty much derailed Zacks original thread.

Edit: Did what I could, but some posts were a mixture of opinions on both topics.

i must point out that i made that comment in a different context (before the thread mutated into what it is now). had the thread been in a programming context at the time, id have probably used more tact.

So because it wasn't very useful 10 years ago, it must therefore be crap now?

Interesting reasoning...

As of OOP, the whole point of OOP is not about speed, it's about modularity and flexibility.

Oh, and for the record, the first programming language I learned was Z80 machine code. In Hex.

Personally, I think Java is a far better place to start because 90% of applications are not speed-centric. Certainly, if you want to judge a language by it's speed then Machine code upwards is the way to go, but that's a pretty archaic viewpoint, almost everyone who works in programming isn't interested in speed, it's only the gaming market that really pushes in that direction, and even then not entirely, most programmers are more concerned about cross-compatability and ease of coding, they don't want to spend months on a project which should take weeks, and in that respect, Java is a very useful language. It has good database access, RMI support, and a good UI interface, the easier it is to put together and maintain an app, the better in almost every every business situation.

my point was that quake was an invalid example. unlike modern idtech engines, it was designed to run on hardware that was already quite old at the time, and not all that fast. quake was released well into the pentium era but was still capable of running on much older hardware. you made the claim that the java3d based quake engine was faster. of course it would be faster because its running in a vm that required much much more resources than the original game used. the way i see it its an entirely different game engine from the original quake engine (sorta like glquake or winquake). it is not a fair comparison. its like comparing retail fs1 in software mode to fs2open 3.6.12, running the fsport. the newer executable may be somewhat faster, but thats because its been optimized for modern hardware.

as i said somewhere (not that i can find it after the split) that java has its place (same can be said for oop). but its certainly not in performance oriented applications. speed (as well as efficient memory usage) might not required of most software, but it does come in handy. since almost all computer systems emphasize multitasking, and which all dip into the same pool of resources, the more tasks you can run concurrently without impeding the system, the more responsive the system is. efficient code is better code.

[Thaeris]

Thanks Nuke. That was kind of my tangent to begin with.

And yes, I did mess up a bit with the high/low level terminology to an extent, but then, you really can do just about everything with C++. (and thus high- and low-level coding)

As far as teaching proper, understandable logic goes, I really liked C++ as well. My only other formal code training was in MATLAB, which I hate with a pashion - until you get into things such as tools which can solve derivatives and integrals from just punching in the base equation. Then I'll give MATLAB a bit more time.

I would still stand by learning C++ first, and then I'd be willing to invest time in Python if I ever got a chance as well. Apparently Python is quite abundant in the financial world as well.

[Flipside]

as i said somewhere (not that i can find it after the split) that java has its place (same can be said for oop). but its certainly not in performance oriented applications. speed (as well as efficient memory usage) might not required of most software, but it does come in handy. since almost all computer systems emphasize multitasking, and which all dip into the same pool of resources, the more tasks you can run concurrently without impeding the system, the more responsive the system is. efficient code is better code.

Well, you know, I've looked through the Mod board etc, nothing's been deleted, and I've looked through the original thread and I didn't leave any of your posts relating to this behind, and don't remember you saying what you claim to have said, so something wierd is going on here. Either the board is eating posts without record, or you posted that to a different thread.

[iamzack]

...i didn't notice this thread got moved

[sayoqod]

...i didn't notice this thread got moved

Not very observant, are you?

[Jeff Vader]

http://evvk.com/javakurssi/ . For those who don't speak Finnish, it's a Java course:

Part 1: Dye your hair orange, purple or green.
Part 2: Get a piercing.
Part 3: Get a piercing.
Part 4: Get a tribal tattoo.
Part 5: Get overall-shaped Diesel jeans.
Part 6: Learn to say "Javabeanz enterprise".
Part 7: Get one more piercing.
Part 8: Read "Teach Yourself Java in Two Minutes" by petterijärvinen.
Part 9: Get one more piercing.

Congratulations. You are now a Java expert and can get a job at any Java business with a good salary.

[Topgun]

http://evvk.com/javakurssi/ . For those who don't speak Finnish, it's a Java course:

Part 1: Dye your hair orange, purple or green.
Part 2: Get a piercing.
Part 3: Get a piercing.
Part 4: Get a tribal tattoo.
Part 5: Get overall-shaped Diesel jeans.
Part 6: Learn to say "Javabeanz enterprise".
Part 7: Get one more piercing.
Part 8: Read "Teach Yourself Java in Two Minutes" by petterijärvinen.
Part 9: Get one more piercing.

Congratulations. You are now a Java expert and can get a job at any Java business with a good salary.

lol. I know a few java "experts" like that.