Author Topic: Split From: NuDeimos  (Read 5660 times)

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Offline Black Wolf

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Nope.

It's not about game balance persay, it's about people wasting time in mission hammering away at turrets which don't do anything. We shouldn't see a turret and have to think "Oh yeah, this is the MVP deimos, which has thing that look exactly like turrets on it, but which are no threat to me or any of the ships I ought to be guarding, I can ignore them." We should just be able to see a turret, kill a turret. Keep it simple.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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This thread is getting retarded very, very fast. Everyone stand down, trust the FSU team to do their job, and let Hades model his stuff. Seriously.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline Commander Zane

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The problem about those side turrets here is that they are big, very visible multiparts. Which wasn't the case of the Lucy's side bombardment beams.
*Snip*
Not... really. The Lucifer's bombardment beams' radius is about that of a Fenris' height.

As for the side guns, I might change the function up a but (make them have large, single barrels for heavier guns, missile pods, etc)

I haven't gotten to the chingine (chin engine) yet, still want to finish up the rest a bit more first.
I really like how it looks there, as well as your idea for alternative weapon systems for the side turrets on the Cover Box version. :)

 

Offline Nohiki

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Nope.

It's not about game balance persay, it's about people wasting time in mission hammering away at turrets which don't do anything. We shouldn't see a turret and have to think "Oh yeah, this is the MVP deimos, which has thing that look exactly like turrets on it, but which are no threat to me or any of the ships I ought to be guarding, I can ignore them." We should just be able to see a turret, kill a turret. Keep it simple.

That's why they can be set as untargetable. And if you're trying to shoot them down just by visual, you have to be facing them, in which case simple pressing "v" key (target subsys in reticle) will tell you that it's the unused one. Problem solved.

 

Offline Commander Zane

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I don't want to say how many time the V key has failed me in pointing out which part of the ship I'm actually shooting... :nervous:

 

Offline General Battuta

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I am definitely 100% with BW here. Extra turrets should ONLY be on a variant model, not on the MVP original. Who can say if there will be missions with targeting disabled a la that one Wings of Dawn EMP mission? What if someone has their sensors shot off?

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Man.  I didn't know such a suggestion would bring up so much heated debate.  Personally, I'm on the no-extra-visible-guns-on-the-default-version side, but if they can be removed in PCS2 without leaving any notable discrepancies in the mesh (like a conspicuous space in the underlying model), then I've no objections.  I do have another suggestion however, but it could be more of a can of worms... though less in terms of overt aesthetics.  My suggestion comes down to visual effects, borrowing a technique that so far I've only seen used on the Boadicea... subsystem debris.  When for example, a turret is destroyed on a normal ship, there's an explosion, some briefly rendered generic debris chunks that disappear almost immediately, and then you see the destroyed model of the turret (if one was included).  Including subsystem debris means that visible chunks of the destroyed submodel will be spawned from the explosion that actually look like they used to be part of it, and they won't disappear after a second or two.  The Boadicea used this so that chunks of the asteroid surface could be blown away.  The only thing that might need some source code additions would be to give enough outward momentum to the debris, as on the Boadicea they don't fly away at any great pace.  The drawbacks to using this (that I know of) are down to the number of polys... though a more informed modeler/coder might have more reasons to shoot down this suggestion.
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Offline Rga_Noris

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One issue with debris is how it effects balance. Imagine that a ship has added debris for the cool factor, but it basically becomes giant shrapnel hurling through space and impacting other ships, significantly damaging them.

Subsystem debris is relatively small, but the potential is still there.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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People keep bringing up the Lucifer, but the problem is that's not really comparable. The Lucifer's bombardment turrets on the side, you look at them and you don't think gun because they don't actually look like a gun, or for that matter terribly threatening. Deactivated and not targetable, they only register as being shiney greebly bits like the spikes on the Lucifer's back. These, on the other hand, are very visibly and very clearly weapons, even if not activated in the tables. Not only would this possibly cause problems for a player in a hurry or in a primitive-sensors/no-sensors situation, it would be aesthetically strange to watch a Deimos with the turrets on it but not activated while fighting because it would clearly have weapons that it's not using.
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Offline Mongoose

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Yeah, I'm very much with Black Wolf and Battuta and NGTM-1R on this.  The potential for confusion aside (I can guarantee that I'd probably try to blow them off at some point, and I actually know the game), I feel like having big obvious guns tacked onto the sides of the Deimos that don't really do anything would just look plain stupid.  Like, the first thought that would come to any semi-new player's mind would be, "Well this looks wrong...maybe something's screwed up with the game."  There's also the question of aesthetics; I've always associated the Deimos with "smooth-sided space brick," and having random turrets hanging off the sides totally nerfs that.

(Also, the suggestion that I should have to download some modding tool I don't have installed and have no use for and then learn how to use it far enough to delete the extra turrets just to take care of the issue seems fairly asinine.  But maybe that's just me.)

 

Offline Droid803

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You people are hypocritical if you bash on c914 and TrashMan for including extra turrets that don't even look like turrets that would be disabled, but are absolutely fine with massive multiparts hanging off the side.

Look at which has a higher potential of misleading players to shoot at them : random little knobs/lights on the hull, or a full-blown multipart turret?
Do note that the first were given a big fat NO.

The only one that stuck was the Lucifer's "bombardment beams", which are really just a set of claws...that appeared in every cutscene, and basically don't look like turrets. AT ALL.

The only real solution is to sabotage all the turrets at mission start (or whenever it arrives), but that means you can't have a -destroyed object or subsystem debris.

What exactly is wrong with having two models?
Are you assuming modders are so incompetent they can't go to FSMods and download the upturreted version?
Yes, I'm assuming new players can't tell real and fake turrets apart, which I feel is a fair assumption...

Now, unless there's an option to hide the subsystem entirely via tables, I think the turrets should go, just because of the confusion it could cause. Even if the turrets could be hidden, there shouldn't be platforms for the side turrets cause it'd look strange with them gone. (this is in response to the example Hades currently has up).
(´・ω・`)
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Offline Rga_Noris

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What turrets on the Cain are we all referring to?

And my point to drop it is that it is so easily changable, and up to Hades. The opinions have been heard, and no one has anything to add. Droids post is a fne example of adding very little to any point that has been made, and everyoje is repeating themselvess.
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Offline Hades

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This argument is pretty god damned silly. Not because of what people have said, but because it's irrelevant for a model so early on in its infancy.

I know something like this could theoretically 'break' things, there's no need for you all to blow up at me as if I don't know anything about balance. I, frankly, find it insulting.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 07:30:17 pm by Hades »
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Offline Droid803

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The Cain Turret Issue: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=64780.0
c914 wanted to add a few turrets to make its armament more symmetric.
people blew up.
(´・ω・`)
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