[Solatar]

I'm impressed that the religious among us have not yet played the "you don't want to believe" card.

It's more of a matter that the religious among us know better than that.  We're quite heavily outnumbered here.

It's like talking to a brick wall trying to "argue" religion around here.

[sigtau]

That, among other things.  You'll occasionally have someone try to kill it from the inside out for those 'arguing' in favor of religion by quoting erratic bible verses, or calling someone out on a faulty argument because of word choice (yes, in a religious debate, one word can change the meaning of an entire paragraph).

...which is why it's silly to even debate those things.  Evangelists who go out and try to convert everyone left and right, ur doin it wrong.

[Bobboau]

well, in a thread that has the phrase "confirmation bias" mentioned so often I can't help but admit it is something of a legitimate concern, however I simply cannot accept something that I can not experimentally confirm, that is the major difference between our world views.

[Fury]

Very cool and inspiring story of a little boy who visited heaven and came back to tell about it.

Yeah right. What a joke. Assuming that everyone involved are telling the truth, such experiences can always be explained by facts. But the bottom line is, everybody lies. This isn't anything but a scam looking for attention and money.

[Sushi]

...which is why it's silly to even debate those things.  Evangelists who go out and try to convert everyone left and right, ur doin it wrong.

Well, if your goal is to convert people, your best option actually is going out and talking to people one-on-one. Internet forums are somewhat less effective.

[Goober5000]

As for the article, I'm skeptical, but I'm also open to the idea that it happened. Can't say definitively one way or the other.

I find the likelihood of it being a function of a brain in certain circumstances infinitely more likely than one's soul looking into another realm.

* Dark Hunter questions why it can't be both.

Ah, a genuine agnostic!  Cool.   Keep searching and you'll find what you're searching for.

Yeah right. What a joke. Assuming that everyone involved are telling the truth, such experiences can always be explained by facts. But the bottom line is, everybody lies. This isn't anything but a scam looking for attention and money.

You seem very sure of yourself.  Do you not consider the possibility you may be mistaken?


And to those who are quick to cite alternative explanations for NDEs, such as centrifuges and partial brain death, let me ask you this: How many of those experiments resulted in the participants gaining knowledge they could not possibly have known?  Be careful not to focus so much on explaining away the visions, colors, sights and sounds that you neglect to address this aspect.

[Fury]

You seem very sure of yourself.  Do you not consider the possibility you may be mistaken?

Not in the slightest. There has never been any concrete proof of God, Heaven or Hell existing in any form whatsoever. Same can be said for any other religion that has similar beliefs of higher power, Heaven and stuff.

How many of those experiments resulted in the participants gaining knowledge they could not possibly have known?

Irrelevant unless proven to be so. People always lie. Even if the parents don't, the kid could have gained this knowledge in many other ways the parents don't know of. Even if the kid doesn't lie per-se, he still could have gained that knowledge by earthly ways but doesn't remember it. These can always be explained by simple logic when all facts are known.

Since facts are never fully known in situations like those, making proper analysis is most often impossible. Yet, simplest explanation is almost always the correct explanation. The kid simply learned of it, lies about it or doesn't remember, or parents lie. Or they both lie.

If Heaven actually exists or had existed at some point, don't you think there would be proof of such instead of religions bickering about their own beliefs and rest of the world shaking their head at those so called believers. Especially since those beliefs are often used as an excuse for nothing but violence.

[achtung]

You seem very sure of yourself.  Do you not consider the possibility you may be mistaken?


And to those who are quick to cite alternative explanations for NDEs, such as centrifuges and partial brain death, let me ask you this: How many of those experiments resulted in the participants gaining knowledge they could not possibly have known?  Be careful not to focus so much on explaining away the visions, colors, sights and sounds that you neglect to address this aspect.

Anything is possible. It's just how probable something is. The chances of this being true are just extremely unlikely.

Kids have wild imaginations, and they see and overhear things their parents/grandparents don't always know about. You never picked up photo albums when you were young? Never listened to your parents talk in the other room? I know I did both. Kids also tend to do things to satisfy their parents. Were the parents religious? (Sorry, if it was covered in TFA, too late to bother)

[Bobboau]

"and then I saw an old man mommy"
"was it our grandfather?"
"...yeah, yeah it was"

and no implication of lies are being expressed here. when one remembers an event your memory can be altered based on expectations you are given during the recall of the event. this is not a case of lieing to fulfill the expectations or get attention but rather you try to see if something fit a set of criteria that you are given and if you can your memory of the event gets altered. it is particularly problematic during states of hightened emotion.

There is also an issue of what about the stuff the kid said early on that didn't get an OMG response from mom that was then never said again. IIRC a sensation of familiar presences is one of the phenomena reported during the centrifuge experiments, if the kid said some little baby was there who felt like a sister this would be consistent with the known results, this could very easily get changed into something much more dramatic without either party being aware of what was happening after the fact.

the fact is when people get into an emotional state there memories become extremely unreliable.

[Spicious]

People have been saying Heaven is real for millennia. How is this news?

[watsisname]

"and then I saw an old man mommy"
"was it our grandfather?"
"...yeah, yeah it was"

Pretty much this.  If you look at stories of people who have been hypnotized in order to relive/recall "past lives", you see this come into play time and time again.  The human brain is highly susceptible to suggestion, especially when one subconsciously wants or expects the suggestion to be true.

It may be imprudent of me to go so far as to say "THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE AND THIS KID JUST HALLUCINATED THE WHOLE THING", but I am very, very far from being convinced of anything supernatural having taken place here.

edit: 

And to those who are quick to cite alternative explanations for NDEs, such as centrifuges and partial brain death, let me ask you this: How many of those experiments resulted in the participants gaining knowledge they could not possibly have known?  Be careful not to focus so much on explaining away the visions, colors, sights and sounds that you neglect to address this aspect.

Of course, and I think some of us have at least partially addressed this.  I would also like to raise the question of why profoundly NDE-like experiences can be produced through the use of centrifuges or hallucinogens, if they are not the "real thing".

...unless all of these are the real thing, in which case it's comforting to know that I've seen glimpses of heaven on multiple occasions.

[QuantumDelta]

I recall a NDE/OBE "empirical test" being done by someone, where they basically put objects or writing in a room that the patients wouldn't even be aware of, and definitely unable to read from normal eye height or on the operating table, and while the reports of OBEs didn't change in their accuracy dealing with things the doctors said or did, or events that took place nearby while they were doing it, they hadn't had a single person report the writing that they should have been able to see while not in their bodies.

The brain does crazy stuff while it's oxygen or blood deprived, it's about the equivalent of holding an electron magnet up to a computer and then running the voltage down to a point that can't properly support the CPU and expecting it to work properly.
When you wake up, the subconscious mind fills in the rest of the experience with details picked up visually, since most OBE experiences are based on sound.

As for the whole heaven thing, welp, we'll see when we get there, but I remain so very highly sceptical.

[karajorma]

Actually I'm going to take a different spin on this. I have no idea why anyone religious would think this story is true. The implications of it actually being real are rather worrying if you are a Christian as it means Heaven is nothing like the description the theologically sophisticated have for it and closer to the version you teach 5 year olds.

[Fury]

theologically sophisticated

Really now, theirs is just another made up explanation of Heaven among hundreds of others. And not all of them can even agree with each other. The only worry I have is that those people actually believe this crap that cannot be explained by hard proof. Religions ain't nothing more than one of the oldest fiction there is, similar to all those weird decades old science fiction movies we all laugh at these days. You could just as well believe everything you saw in that one 50's science fiction movie is all true.

[karajorma]

I didn't say it wasn't.

It's just that anyone who actually believes this story really needs to sit down and think a bit cause if it's true it's ****ing terrifying.

[Locutus of Borg]

A combination of pre-existing expectations, self-interested parents feeding him information directly and indirectly, bad reporting, and retroactive fabrication on everybody's part, all spiced with a heaping helping of confirmation bias.

I don't think money's the entire point, they probably genuinely believe, but people also genuinely believe Mother Mary was in that toast.

 

[Kolgena]

I've had experiences where people have "told" me to go check out this or that, or buy this or that album. The album or internet gimmick I am directed to exists, but once I go back to those people and tell them what I think about them (and after trying others that might have told me about them), I find that nobody I know has ever heard of this or that gimmick or this or that album. This has happened 3-4 times in the past 2 years.

I'm not convinced that I am able to predict things that are out there. It's probably some stupid mind failure in my brain that is screwing up perceptions or memory. It may be the same thing here with NDEs, especially since a brain under stress is more likely to screw up.

[General Battuta]

And to those who are quick to cite alternative explanations for NDEs, such as centrifuges and partial brain death, let me ask you this: How many of those experiments resulted in the participants gaining knowledge they could not possibly have known?  Be careful not to focus so much on explaining away the visions, colors, sights and sounds that you neglect to address this aspect.

Already explained, Mulder.

A good scientist remembers that in the absence of strong evidence the simplest explanation is most likely the truth. If you want scientific proof of heaven and Jesus, maybe you just don't have enough faith? You shouldn't need proof if you really believe.

[Mongoose]

theologically sophisticated

Really now, theirs is just another made up explanation of Heaven among hundreds of others. And not all of them can even agree with each other. The only worry I have is that those people actually believe this crap that cannot be explained by hard proof. Religions ain't nothing more than one of the oldest fiction there is, similar to all those weird decades old science fiction movies we all laugh at these days. You could just as well believe everything you saw in that one 50's science fiction movie is all true.

Hey Fury, you wanna try, maybe, not being a total douche about this?  Kthx.

(inb4 this is why we shouldn't talk about religion on the internets)

[Flipside]

I just can't imagine God not being certain as to whether someone's dead or not...

"Mary! We have to send this one back, it's not finished yet!"