[Buckshee Rounds]

The funny part about the GTVA total war clause is that they still give the civilians a chance to surrender - the first mission of WiH for instance. It's not like they randomly kill civilians for the hell of it.

Erm... no. That was the decision of a wing leader to offer the surrender. The first two (or three?) waves of attackers that came before the one that offered them a chance to surrender, didn't bother with any such offers. They just immediately started to blast away at the convoy.

They were being escorted by two cruisers therefore they're fair game. The wing leader was just being courteous. When exactly was the total war clause activated anyway? I thought it must've been just before Severanti decided to up his ante.

Ninja'ed: what Scotty said.

[-Norbert-]

That's exactly what I meant to say. The wingleader decided to give them another chance, even though he was not obligated to do so by their rules of engagement.

[Destiny]

The GTVA and the UEF philosophy and military doctrines...heh. The UEF's never seen how deep crap can get, like the GTVA have. I'd say this makes the UEF, inherently weak. The UEF never faced the Shivans. The GTA did. The UEF doesn't understand why the GTVA is big ships and big guns. Having fast, maneuverable corvettes and frigates and battlegroups whatnot are nothing to hitscanning, giant, evil pulsating red beams that always seems to have a tendency to hit Alpha 1 when shooting at a capital ship. And especially the...sheer numbers (read: SF Dragon) of the Shivans which can turn your surprise 'jump behind into the blindspot', useless. As with the Solaris, the UEF was built for a 'non-existent threat'. The GTVA, engineered for the Shivan threat. The GTVA Colossus. I'd like to see it in Blue Planet.

The threat that threatens to destroy all that they hold dear. Vasuda. Capella. Both...gone. If the GT of the GTVA takes that one more step, Earth will be theirs. Why don't they take that extra step, I do not know. Perhaps the GTD Aquitane's battlegroup, which could (help) win the war, could've been sent. But why not? There are threats looming. For every ship taken away from GTVA systems, the higher the chance that particular system could be lost to a sudden invasion by XXX. Heh, I'm not sure how this relates to ship size inflation, but it explains itself to me in a philosophical way. I do expect to hear someone saying biased, though. Just my two ¥.


Also, can't forget to mention Lieutenant Commander Snipes.

[The E]

The GTVA and the UEF philosophy and military doctrines...heh. The UEF's never seen how deep crap can get, like the GTVA have. I'd say this makes the UEF, inherently weak. The UEF never faced the Shivans. The GTA did. The UEF doesn't understand why the GTVA is big ships and big guns. Having fast, maneuverable corvettes and frigates and battlegroups whatnot are nothing to hitscanning, giant, evil pulsating red beams that always seems to have a tendency to hit Alpha 1 when shooting at a capital ship. And especially the...sheer numbers (read: SF Dragon) of the Shivans which can turn your surprise 'jump behind into the blindspot', useless. As with the Solaris, the UEF was built for a 'non-existent threat'. The GTVA, engineered for the Shivan threat. The GTVA Colossus. I'd like to see it in Blue Planet.

The threat that threatens to destroy all that they hold dear. Vasuda. Capella. Both...gone. If the GT of the GTVA takes that one more step, Earth will be theirs. Why don't they take that extra step, I do not know. Perhaps the GTD Aquitane's battlegroup, which could (help) win the war, could've been sent. But why not? There are threats looming. For every ship taken away from GTVA systems, the higher the chance that particular system could be lost to a sudden invasion by XXX. Heh, I'm not sure how this relates to ship size inflation, but it explains itself to me in a philosophical way. I do expect to hear someone saying biased, though. Just my two ¥.

Not trying to be overly dismissive here, but have you read the supplementary materials for Blue Planet? Techroom entries, and the fiction posted on our website? Because most of what you said there was adressed, in one form or another.

Also, you are contradicting yourself massively. The GTVA fleet in BP is in the process of converting to a model where you have fast and maneuverable Corvettes as the main source of firepower (See: Serkr Team. Those guys are built to take down Sathanases without having to commit multiple Destroyers in the process). Big dreadnoughts like the Colossus are, in the BP universe, a really bad idea, because they represent a single concentrated force, which can be outmaneuvered with ease (Yes, the Colossus is the ultimate blockade breaker. It would be utterly helpless in the Sol theater.). Also, never underestimate the firepower a UEF frigate squadron can put out. Or the firepower of fighters like the Durga, Izra'il or Vajradahara.

[Pred the Penguin]

We haven't seen the full military might of the UEF yet. R2 is gonna be awesome!

[Destiny]

The GTVA and the UEF philosophy and military doctrines...heh. The UEF's never seen how deep crap can get, like the GTVA have. I'd say this makes the UEF, inherently weak. The UEF never faced the Shivans. The GTA did. The UEF doesn't understand why the GTVA is big ships and big guns. Having fast, maneuverable corvettes and frigates and battlegroups whatnot are nothing to hitscanning, giant, evil pulsating red beams that always seems to have a tendency to hit Alpha 1 when shooting at a capital ship. And especially the...sheer numbers (read: SF Dragon) of the Shivans which can turn your surprise 'jump behind into the blindspot', useless. As with the Solaris, the UEF was built for a 'non-existent threat'. The GTVA, engineered for the Shivan threat. The GTVA Colossus. I'd like to see it in Blue Planet.

The threat that threatens to destroy all that they hold dear. Vasuda. Capella. Both...gone. If the GT of the GTVA takes that one more step, Earth will be theirs. Why don't they take that extra step, I do not know. Perhaps the GTD Aquitane's battlegroup, which could (help) win the war, could've been sent. But why not? There are threats looming. For every ship taken away from GTVA systems, the higher the chance that particular system could be lost to a sudden invasion by XXX. Heh, I'm not sure how this relates to ship size inflation, but it explains itself to me in a philosophical way. I do expect to hear someone saying biased, though. Just my two ¥.

Not trying to be overly dismissive here, but have you read the supplementary materials for Blue Planet? Techroom entries, and the fiction posted on our website? Because most of what you said there was adressed, in one form or another.

Also, you are contradicting yourself massively. The GTVA fleet in BP is in the process of converting to a model where you have fast and maneuverable Corvettes as the main source of firepower (See: Serkr Team. Those guys are built to take down Sathanases without having to commit multiple Destroyers in the process). Big dreadnoughts like the Colossus are, in the BP universe, a really bad idea, because they represent a single concentrated force, which can be outmaneuvered with ease (Yes, the Colossus is the ultimate blockade breaker. It would be utterly helpless in the Sol theater.). Also, never underestimate the firepower a UEF frigate squadron can put out. Or the firepower of fighters like the Durga, Izra'il or Vajradahara.

I know, I've been stalking lurking HLPBB for years on the end (remember AoA on it's first release with that Balor?). The Exigency, Meson fluctuations, SJ Dante, watching the Serkr team blow up that frigate and running from the three anti-ship wings, the Yangtze's destruction. But what's the use of the Serkr team in the face of this? (Naturally I can't imagine anything like that ever happening in any scenario, nor would it be sensible) As you've stated, not the entirety of the GTVA has converted to the 'wolfpack' combat doctrine. However I do truly believe that if the GTVA takes that one more step, Earth is theirs. I can kinda feel like...they're...holding...back. I've FREDed the Durga, that white fighter, the super-bomber, flew it myself. They can't make a difference, if that one step is taken. The GTVA is like a beehive or anthill or something. If they decide to toss a few more 'stuff' into Sol...actually:

If you leave the Atreus and Imperieuse to go whack other UEF stuff in Sol instead of joining the Colossus, the Colossus battlegroup (I daresay, Capella-era ships only, although it would be rather large and FPS eating) would still singlehandedly eliminate the Earth blockade (especially in the wake of the blitzkrieg by Balls of Steele) and end the war, even with all three Solarises gathered. Of course, I'm not trying to change anything or anyone's opinion, just how I feel about the ships (their sizes too, strangely) and how they're deployed. I may seem like downplaying the UEF and making the GTVA seem so powerful and in the end contradict myself, so forgive me on that even though I'm neutral. I am enjoying BP myself,on the contrary, blowing up GTVA fighters and the Cho with Gattlers, disarming Deimoses with Archers and all that. The story is deep and immersing and all that but...hey, this is 'warship inflation'. Haha.

(I enjoy a good debate and everyone stands to gain if we manage to get the team to flesh out more details, no?)

[SD-Beast]

I'm not so sure the Colossus would be useless in the Sol Theater, it would simply fill the UEF public with terror and dread. Here they are struggling hard again Raynor's and Titan's, then suddenly this gigantic, gritty, ugly tev juggernaut appears through the node. Bristling with enough firepower to rival nearly half an entire UEF fleet all by itself? Terrifying to your average 'buntu. Granted, in direct combat a Colly would struggle with it's Capella-era green beams. But the psychological impact of the GTVA possessing such a vessel and using it would be very beneficial to undermining the UEF's will to fight.

Besides, I'm sure Steele could do very magical things to the UEF if he had command of a Colossus. 

[MatthTheGeek]

Well if, the GTVA had a Colossus, that would mean that all the resources spent to buy it wouldn't have been spent toward most other military stuff. That means nearly no SSM strikes, probably no Serkrs, maybe no Atlanta/Draco/Nyx, less AWACS, most likely a smaller overall fleet... You get my point. Those things are not cheap. There is a good reason the GTVA has "never considered building a fleet of Colossus", as the tech room says.

[The E]

Ahem.

There is no Colossus in the BP continuity. The Colossus project died when the Colossus got beamed to death. Now, you have observed that the GTVA is holding back. They aren't. They are sending every last ship they can spare to Sol, so that by the start of WiH, there are three Battlegroups operating in the system. They can't send more ships without weakening their standing defense commitments elsewhere, and given that the stated reason for going to war is rather thin at best, they cannot allow their populace to start doubting now. If they were to weaken other fleets, they would undermine their main argument for going to war in the first place.

Second, there is no blockade. At the beginning of WiH, the GTVA has firm control over the node and the outer system.

Third, the Solaris class is incredibly powerful. While they may take a while to whittle down the Collossus' HP until it asplodinates, the Colly will be disarmed and disabled long before then. Same goes for the Karunas and Narayanas, what they lack in terms of sheer DPS output, they make up in precision. The only reason why the UEF isn't steamrolling over the GTVA fleets is because of politics; up until the battle of Artemis station (AKA WiH's opening cinematic), only 2 of the three UEF fleets were actively conducting offensive combat operations.

As for Durgas and Vajradaharas not making a difference, you're pretty much very wrong there. A single wing of Vajras can utterly annihilate any but the biggest capital ships fielded by the GTVA.

I'm not so sure the Colossus would be useless in the Sol Theater, it would simply fill the UEF public with terror and dread. Here they are struggling hard again Raynor's and Titan's, then suddenly this gigantic, gritty, ugly tev juggernaut appears through the node. Bristling with enough firepower to rival nearly half an entire UEF fleet all by itself? Terrifying to your average 'buntu. Granted, in direct combat a Colly would struggle with it's Capella-era green beams. But the psychological impact of the GTVA possessing such a vessel and using it would be very beneficial to undermining the UEF's will to fight.

Besides, I'm sure Steele could do very magical things to the UEF if he had command of a Colossus. 

NGTM-1R is very right when he say the Colossus is a blockade breaker. It is neither made nor suitable for stand-up line combat, especially against a foe who is just as maneuverable, and has the ability to track the Colossus in real-time. "Feint, Parry, Riposte" only worked because Koth wasn't aware that the Colossus was operational and in his system. The UEF, on the other hand, is far better at gathering intelligence, and thus at evading the Colossus until it can be suckered into a trap. The name of the game is subspace chess, and one of its rules is that the most powerful piece is one that has not yet entered the field.

[Mars]

I'd have to say that Blue Planet continuity seems to indicate many other reasons why the UEF hasn't "steamrolled" the GTVA.

[Buckshee Rounds]

I doubt the GTVA has the resources or time to build another one of those monstrosities. It took twenty years to build the first and it got vaporised in seconds. The Colossus was designed to hunt Lucifer class ships. The closest the UEF has that matches the juggernaut's mission profile is the Solaris and there are only three. Even if somehow the Tevs got ahold of another Colossus and drived it through Sol what then? It has absolutely no use other than to hunt smaller ships, save for being an oversized carrier. Can you hunt Gef with a juggernaut?

For the cost of one Colossus the GTVA could probably build an entire battlegroup. Which would you want? A gas guzzling ubership or a more flexible, more powerful and more economic solution?

Ninja'ed.

[Dragon]

Colossus would actually be an usefull asset for the GTVA against the UEF, seeing as it can use long range beams and is invurnable to flanking, making attacking it really difficult.
Also, it's fighters would have been usefull in case of fighter attack. Speed and cost of operating are the downsides of Colossus, UEF would simply flee from it wherever it shows up, such ship can't be in multiple places at once.

[Qent]

I think the GTVA made the right decision in tossing the Colossus idea, but "Helios" is still a pretty awesome "What If?"

[The E]

Colossus would actually be an usefull asset for the GTVA against the UEF, seeing as it can use long range beams and is invurnable to flanking, making attacking it really difficult.
Also, it's fighters would have been usefull in case of fighter attack. Speed and cost of operating are the downsides of Colossus, UEF would simply flee from it wherever it shows up, such ship can't be in multiple places at once.

Range advantage is nullified by Narayanas and fighter strikes. Carrier capacity is better supplied via Hecate- or Titan-class ships. Ressources spent to build a massive juggernaught are better employed building strike corvettes and Raynors or Titans.

[Mars]

seeing as it can use long range beams and is invurnable to flanking,

The LRBGreens are actually shorter ranged than BBlues, meaning Raynor's actually have both of those areas covered.

Range advantage is nullified by Narayanas and fighter strikes.

Actually every bit of range helps, Karunas are significantly outranged by BBlues for example. Although artillery ships are powerful, the UEF fleet only has 11 of them (including known Fedayeen ships) at the beginning of WiH.

You in general seem to believe that the UEF have a huge tactical advantage over the Sol Expeditionary Force; does this reflect a general shift in the BP team? Originally they seemed pretty clearly envisioned as the underdog.

EDIT:

Tactical underdog, that is. I know politics was supposed to be a major factor from the start. It seemed to be implied that the UEF had certain important defensive advantages tactically, but lacked the offensive punch of the Tevs

[The E]

Nope, that's just my personal bias. I am firmly of the opinion that the UEF forces, if they had fought competently, could have secured Sol rather easily; Calder almost single-handedly holding back the GTVA invasion for over a year should be proof of that. As it is, infighting amongst the three fleets gave Steele and Severanti all the openings they needed to slowly chip away at the UEF naval force.

In terms of technological capabilities, the UEF is at least the GTVA's equal. However, because they didn't use the chances they had to establish a permanent blockade of the node, the GTVA can now exploit their much greater reserves.

[Dragon]

Range advantage is nullified by Narayanas and fighter strikes. Carrier capacity is better supplied via Hecate- or Titan-class ships. Ressources spent to build a massive juggernaught are better employed building strike corvettes and Raynors or Titans.

Colossus has it's own fighters to defend itself and at the time of return to Sol, it would have most likely been upgraded with new beams. Though, as I said, costs of deploying and operating such a ship make it less effective compared to smaller, more versatile warships. The biggest adventage Colossus would have against UEF would be it's size, which makes a great psychological weapon. I doubt UEF would dare to fight a ship of such size (and so though it would appear invincible, even when technically not being so), it could also serve as a morale booster for GTVA. If they did dare to fight it, however, it would soon turn out to be less usefull than regular carriers and destroyers, being a single ship (thus unable to defend two locations at once) and being rather slow.

I am firmly of the opinion that the UEF forces, if they had fought competently, could have secured Sol rather easily;

Also, if 1st fleet wasn't mostly standing near Earth and guarding their secret project (though they do it for a good reason, which will be revealed when the time comes), they could shift the balance in favor of UEF. If all three fleets answered to a single commander, and if that commander was a good tactican, then UEF could be doing much better.

[Qent]

If it gets destroyed however, the same phenomenon would work against the GTVA, trashing morale more than they would have had the GTVA never invested in a second Colossus.

[PsychoLandlord]

In terms of technological capabilities, the UEF is at least the GTVA's equal. However, because they didn't use the chances they had to establish a permanent blockade of the node, the GTVA can now exploit their much greater reserves.

But thats the hell of it. Even if the UEF military did begin a unified effort to push the GTVA  out of Sol, it would be too little, too late. They've nullified the "home field advantage" by giving the GTVA the outer systems, allowing them to service damaged vessels in-theater and therefore get them into the fight quicker. Technologically even grounds is nothing in  the face of the greater numbers and, more importantly, experience, the GTVA has. And while UEF ships may be better at this kind of war then their Tev counterparts, the Tev captains have already demonstrated the tactical competence to retain the advantage.

tl;dr, at this point, the UEF is hosed barring the Deus ex Machina FS narrative so loves. Which is a shame, as I really like the UEF.

[The E]

There is no deus ex machina at the end of BP. Everything that will happen has been foreshadowed.