Author Topic: hmmm hate or not?  (Read 12609 times)

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Offline Beskargam

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http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/28/herman-cain-assailed-as-bigoted-over-muslim-remarks-2/#more-151825

so is this guy just being prejudiced or no? and what does he mean about Europe and letting it come in a bit at a time? i mighta heard smthing about about France on NPR . . .or i could just be crazy who knows

 

Offline Mars

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Quote

Cain told a reporter- if he became president – he would not appoint a Muslim to his cabinet or as a federal judge.

No, totally not prejudiced at all? (EDIT: sarcastic)
Webster
Quote
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2
a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
b : an instance of such judgment or opinion
c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

See definition 2.  I generally think religion, by in large, is dangerous to believe. At the same time, their specific beleif may vary, to not hire a more qualified person, who might even hold less destructive beliefs, because their particular god is named Allah, is silly. Especially considering that there are plenty of Republicans right now with dangerous beliefs, and only some of those are religious.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 12:37:02 am by Mars »

 
I don't know about Europe. All news I've heard in the past few years has been of governments banning spinnerets or face covering. It seems to me that this guy is manufacturing fear.

The ironic thing is that countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, which are a good representative of the bogeyman he's trying to bring up, are oppressive to women. Conservatives, however much they may bash Islam, are also eroding women rights. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

EDIT: Also, I think he is a bigot

 

Offline karajorma

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All news I've heard in the past few years has been of governments banning spinnerets or face covering.

You mean Minarets. Banning Spinnerets would mean banning spiders. Unless there is some secret to Persian silk rug weaving I'm not privy to. :D


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And she addressed CAIR's criticism of Cain, an African-American.

"The claim that he is bigoted – when he himself has lived the majority of his childhood and young adult life under segregation – is pretty baseless."

The claim that he can't be bigoted because he's black is inherently racist in and of itself. :p
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 06:29:53 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Luis Dias

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Quote
"I was asked, 'What is the role of Islam in America?' I thought it was an odd question. I said, 'The role of Islam in America is for those that believe in Islam to practice it and leave us alone. Just like Christianity. We have a First Amendment. And I get upset when the Muslims in this country - some of them – try to force their Sharia law onto the rest of us.'"

Seems pretty good to me. I don't think he really meant to be against muslims, but against muslimhood in politics and justice. Some people have difficulty making the distinction but this paragraph is as good as it gets.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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I don't know about Europe. All news I've heard in the past few years has been of governments banning spinnerets or face covering. It seems to me that this guy is manufacturing fear.

.... which just shows your ignorance on the subject. If you "don't know about Europe", then dissuade yourself from commenting on the subject.

There's one thing in Europe called "France" and there is another one called "Great Britain". They are massively different. Just as any other european country you can name about. Some have the exact issue the man was talking about, some do not. GB has this problem and it is a *serious* problem, while France, for instance, has banned the burka.

[qutoe]The ironic thing is that countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, which are a good representative of the bogeyman he's trying to bring up, are oppressive to women. Conservatives, however much they may bash Islam, are also eroding women rights. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.[/quote]

I'm no republican, but to make that kind of comparison is very silly on your part. I refrained myself from saying "bigoted", since this word has been abused here.

Quote
EDIT: Also, I think he is a bigot

That I do not know. Nor care.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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All news I've heard in the past few years has been of governments banning spinnerets or face covering.

You mean Minarets. Banning Spinnerets would mean banning spiders. Unless there is some secret to Persian silk rug weaving I'm not privy to. :D

****, americans are completely ignorant of what's going on rofl. France has banned the burka. Do you know what a burka is? Switzerland is the country that has banned minarets. GB approved of sharia law to be applicated between muslisms.

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The claim that he can't be bigoted because he's black is inherently racist in and of itself. :p

It's more of a reference, not a logical necessity, and I thought it was a good reference of actual experience on the subject. And on top of that, you call them racists for pointing that out!

I mean, wow.

 

Offline Mars

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Quote
The ironic thing is that countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, which are a good representative of the bogeyman he's trying to bring up, are oppressive to women. Conservatives, however much they may bash Islam, are also eroding women rights. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm no republican, but to make that kind of comparison is very silly on your part. I refrained myself from saying "bigoted", since this word has been abused here.
I don't see how. Yes, Middle Eastern oppression of women is unquestionably worse, but we're talking about a party that has, out and out, attempted to ban abortions and redefine rape to exclude drug rapes, etc.

****, americans are completely ignorant of what's going on rofl. France has banned the burka. Do you know what a burka is? Switzerland is the country that has banned minarets. GB approved of sharia law to be applicated between muslisms.
Why? Why are you American baiting? I knew this stuff, and I'm a yank, I bet there are a fair number of Europeans who don't know everything there is to know about racism in the United States, and you know what? It's not worth trolling them over.

Quote
The claim that he can't be bigoted because he's black is inherently racist in and of itself. :p

It's more of a reference, not a logical necessity, and I thought it was a good reference of actual experience on the subject. And on top of that, you call them racists for pointing that out!

I mean, wow.

It was a joke, I'm pretty sure. EDIT: As for that though the idea that someone who's experienced something unpleasant can't then proceed to practice the same thing is, I think, patently false.

EDIT: Just realized there were 3
Quote
"I was asked, 'What is the role of Islam in America?' I thought it was an odd question. I said, 'The role of Islam in America is for those that believe in Islam to practice it and leave us alone. Just like Christianity. We have a First Amendment. And I get upset when the Muslims in this country - some of them – try to force their Sharia law onto the rest of us.'"

Seems pretty good to me. I don't think he really meant to be against muslims, but against muslimhood in politics and justice. Some people have difficulty making the distinction but this paragraph is as good as it gets.
Please read my initial post
Quote

Cain told a reporter- if he became president – he would not appoint a Muslim to his cabinet or as a federal judge.

No, totally not prejudiced at all?
Webster
Quote
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2
a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
b : an instance of such judgment or opinion
c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

See definition 2.  I generally think religion, by in large, is dangerous to believe. At the same time, their specific beleif may vary, to not hire a more qualified person, who might even hold less destructive beliefs, because their particular god is named Allah, is silly. Especially considering that there are plenty of Republicans right now with dangerous beliefs, and only some of those are religious.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 09:22:45 pm by Mars »

 

Offline Mars

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Oops double post, sorry!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 09:18:40 pm by Mars »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Quote
The ironic thing is that countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, which are a good representative of the bogeyman he's trying to bring up, are oppressive to women. Conservatives, however much they may bash Islam, are also eroding women rights. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm no republican, but to make that kind of comparison is very silly on your part. I refrained myself from saying "bigoted", since this word has been abused here.
I don't see how. Yes, Middle Eastern oppression of women is unquestionably worse, but we're talking about a party that has, out and out, attempted to ban abortions and redefine rape to exclude drug rapes, etc.

Again, to compare the issue of abortion, that quite frankly is completely debatable indepedently of whether you and I and many people "sit" on it, to the misogynistic practices in Afghanistan is outright insulting. Not. Even. Wrong.

Quote
****, americans are completely ignorant of what's going on rofl. France has banned the burka. Do you know what a burka is? Switzerland is the country that has banned minarets. GB approved of sharia law to be applicated between muslisms.
Why? Why are you American baiting? I knew this stuff, and I'm a yank, I bet there are a fair number of Europeans who don't know everything there is to know about racism in the United States, and you know what? It's not worth trolling them over.

I was joking there. And yeah, many europeans do not know the backstory of racism in america.

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Quote
The claim that he can't be bigoted because he's black is inherently racist in and of itself. :p

It's more of a reference, not a logical necessity, and I thought it was a good reference of actual experience on the subject. And on top of that, you call them racists for pointing that out!

I mean, wow.

It was a joke, I'm pretty sure.

Mkay.

Quote
EDIT: Just realized there were 3
Quote
"I was asked, 'What is the role of Islam in America?' I thought it was an odd question. I said, 'The role of Islam in America is for those that believe in Islam to practice it and leave us alone. Just like Christianity. We have a First Amendment. And I get upset when the Muslims in this country - some of them – try to force their Sharia law onto the rest of us.'"

Seems pretty good to me. I don't think he really meant to be against muslims, but against muslimhood in politics and justice. Some people have difficulty making the distinction but this paragraph is as good as it gets.
Please read my initial post

Did he now? I did read the quotes, but I do know how reporters often go for the soundbytes, etc. The whole gist of his message didn't seem to be "fking muslisms no WAY they gonna get over ma arse". It was more like "religion doesn't step in justice while I have a word about it". The reference of christianity as an example was also very clear. I seriously doubt he would not "appoint" a christian dude per se. But he would if said dude would see the bible as his own "justice" reference point.

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No, totally not prejudiced at all?
Webster
Quote
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2
a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
b : an instance of such judgment or opinion
c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

It depends on the actual quote. I am quite skeptical of the reporter's accuracy there, and even if he expressed what he meant the right rigorous way. Again, his fears were not about people, but about specific beliefs that run counter to his notions of what justice in America means. He should be discriminatory against all of those from which he disagrees on those terms. Obviously. To call that "prejudice" or "bigotry" is profoundly idiotic.

Now you seem to be sticking with this only small quotation from him to reach the whole conclusion that he's bigoted, prejudiced, etc. Sorry, I don't think people are defined by soundbytes, specially typos.

Quote
See definition 2.  I generally think religion, by in large, is dangerous to believe. At the same time, their specific beleif may vary, to not hire a more qualified person, who might even hold less destructive beliefs, because their particular god is named Allah, is silly. Especially considering that there are plenty of Republicans right now with dangerous beliefs, and only some of those are religious.

It has nothing to do with "Religion" per se, but with its inherent contradiction with the first Amendment and justice policies overall. Again, in this kind of situation it is pretty difficult to separate the man from his "beliefs", but if you see a religion affiliation as a political affiliation (which is what it is, really), then why on earth should he be criticized for discriminating against muslims?

Try to substitute "muslim" for "democratic" to get the point. Would he get such a bad reporting against him were he to say that he would never appoint a "dem judge"? Of COURSE not. And yet, dems are way more similar to reps than muslims are. So all this fuss is just political correctedness gone berserk.

 

Offline Mars

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Again, to compare the issue of abortion, that quite frankly is completely debatable indepedently of whether you and I and many people "sit" on it, to the misogynistic practices in Afghanistan is outright insulting. Not. Even. Wrong.
I don't know where you get your ethics from, but in my book, it's just as bad to try to control the innards of a woman and the outer clothes she wears. I don't think late term abortion should be the norm, but that is something that has been established here, in laws. There are some seriously bad things that go on in some parts of the Middle East, but unless you have some sort of ethical position, they're just as "debatable."
I was joking there. And yeah, many europeans do not know the backstory of racism in america.
Many do, many don't.

Did he now? I did read the quotes, but I do know how reporters often go for the soundbytes, etc. The whole gist of his message didn't seem to be "fking muslisms no WAY they gonna get over ma arse". It was more like "religion doesn't step in justice while I have a word about it". The reference of christianity as an example was also very clear. I seriously doubt he would not "appoint" a christian dude per se. But he would if said dude would see the bible as his own "justice" reference point.

It depends on the actual quote. I am quite skeptical of the reporter's accuracy there, and even if he expressed what he meant the right rigorous way. Again, his fears were not about people, but about specific beliefs that run counter to his notions of what justice in America means. He should be discriminatory against all of those from which he disagrees on those terms. Obviously. To call that "prejudice" or "bigotry" is profoundly idiotic.

Why not watch?

Now you seem to be sticking with this only small quotation from him to reach the whole conclusion that he's bigoted, prejudiced, etc. Sorry, I don't think people are defined by soundbytes, specially typos.
No, he's taking a bunch of examples of Musilims trying to gain political power for Islam and Sharia law, and saying that it means that ALL Musilims will do the same thing.
It has nothing to do with "Religion" per se, but with its inherent contradiction with the first Amendment and justice policies overall. Again, in this kind of situation it is pretty difficult to separate the man from his "beliefs", but if you see a religion affiliation as a political affiliation (which is what it is, really), then why on earth should he be criticized for discriminating against muslims?
In that case, according to you there should be no Christians nor Buddhists nor anyone else with a religion in power - if having a religion necessitates political affiliation, then any religious person in power is a violation of the Separation of Church and State.

Try to substitute "muslim" for "democratic" to get the point. Would he get such a bad reporting against him were he to say that he would never appoint a "dem judge"? Of COURSE not. And yet, dems are way more similar to reps than muslims are. So all this fuss is just political correctedness gone berserk.

Substitute Musilim for Christian, or for atheists, or for anything else. And even "Democratic" is a problem. Cabinets are supposed to be bi-partisan typically. The last three - I know, had members from both political parties. 

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Again, to compare the issue of abortion, that quite frankly is completely debatable indepedently of whether you and I and many people "sit" on it, to the misogynistic practices in Afghanistan is outright insulting. Not. Even. Wrong.
I don't know where you get your ethics from, but in my book, it's just as bad to try to control the innards of a woman and the outer clothes she wears. I don't think late term abortion should be the norm, but that is something that has been established here, in laws. There are some seriously bad things that go on in some parts of the Middle East, but unless you have some sort of ethical position, they're just as "debatable."

Ok, so I just think your "ethics" on this matter are ridiculous, but hey. As a matter of fact I am in favour of women's choice to abort, but I fully understand the opposite point and to compare it with the mysogenistic ethics that pervade many barbaric traditions out there is ... wow. I am lost at words.


I was joking there. And yeah, many europeans do not know the backstory of racism in america.
Many do, many don't.

Did he now? I did read the quotes, but I do know how reporters often go for the soundbytes, etc. The whole gist of his message didn't seem to be "fking muslisms no WAY they gonna get over ma arse". It was more like "religion doesn't step in justice while I have a word about it". The reference of christianity as an example was also very clear. I seriously doubt he would not "appoint" a christian dude per se. But he would if said dude would see the bible as his own "justice" reference point.

It depends on the actual quote. I am quite skeptical of the reporter's accuracy there, and even if he expressed what he meant the right rigorous way. Again, his fears were not about people, but about specific beliefs that run counter to his notions of what justice in America means. He should be discriminatory against all of those from which he disagrees on those terms. Obviously. To call that "prejudice" or "bigotry" is profoundly idiotic.

Why not watch?[/quote]

Yeah, thanks about that. Now I am a fan of that man. He's 100% correct, and I find appalling that left-wingers get to criticize him for his bluntness, and side with this notion that the constitution is to be played around and fiddled whenever the "racist card" gets base. I mean wtf? The left-wing? Are they so desperate to take on right-wingers that they forget their own values? I'll be damned.

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No, he's taking a bunch of examples of Musilims trying to gain political power for Islam and Sharia law, and saying that it means that ALL Musilims will do the same thing.

Did he say "All muslims will do the same thing"? Where? I missed that part. Or are you making it up?


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In that case, according to you there should be no Christians nor Buddhists nor anyone else with a religion in power - if having a religion necessitates political affiliation, then any religious person in power is a violation of the Separation of Church and State.

It's not according to "me", it's according to "him". And he *did* say exactly that. So there.

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Substitute Musilim for Christian, or for atheists, or for anything else. And even "Democratic" is a problem. Cabinets are supposed to be bi-partisan typically. The last three - I know, had members from both political parties.

I'm not saying I'd "vote" him if he would say that, for instance, he would not appoint an "atheist" judge. If however he based this judgement upon principles of the constitution with specific examples on why atheists would probably "**** up" the constitution I would at least respect the call. Frankly and specifically I can't see how the hell can an atheist "**** up" the constitution of the USA for being an atheist, since it's probably one of the most atheistic constitutions in the world, but we are speaking academically here.


Now to your point about bigotry, yes, I see the difference between a person "saying" he's a muslim and effectually behaving like a Sharia Law enforcer. So he is probably wrong on that account. But I have no statistics on this issue. He could well be right that a muslim judge is to be distrusted a priori.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Hint: imagine that he would have been asked whether he would appoint a scientologist judge. And then he would reply in the same vein.

Would that be bigoted?

 

Offline Nuclear1

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God, watching that guy talk made me puke.

If he's afraid of Muslims enforcing Sharia law on Americans (which, by and large, they're not) then I'd love to know his position on blue laws, anti-abortion legislation, and same sex marriage bans.

This man's a bigot, plain and simple, because he claims every Muslim in America (including ones who are eligible to sit on the bench) is attempting to enforce Sharia law on the US.  He doesn't say he will look at the individual's record or beliefs, but instead he will simply disqualify him because he's a Muslim.

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Hint: imagine that he would have been asked whether he would appoint a scientologist judge. And then he would reply in the same vein.

Would that be bigoted?

In the same vein, yes it would.  Not all Muslims are the same, not all Jews are the same, not all Christians are the same, and not all Scientologists are the same.

This whole debate is as stupid as saying a Catholic who runs for President who would be a servant of the Pope.  It's stupid bigotry at its finest, coming from the mouths of a politician from the Grand Old Stupid Bigotry Party.

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Again, to compare the issue of abortion, that quite frankly is completely debatable indepedently of whether you and I and many people "sit" on it, to the misogynistic practices in Afghanistan is outright insulting. Not. Even. Wrong.
The driving force behind the anti-abortion crowd in the US is religiously-driven suppression of women's rights, under the guise of protecting lives.

If the same anti-abortion activists cared about that child's life, why do they cut education and welfare, make healthcare for that baby so damned expensive, and squander that child's future through defense spending?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 11:51:23 pm by Nuclear1 »
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Offline karajorma

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GB approved of sharia law to be applicated between muslisms.

Okay, I've been out of the country a couple of years so I'm gonna need a link on that one.

I will point out that Jewish courts have existed for a long time. Is this guy going to say he wouldn't appoint a Jew? Would you think he was right to say that?

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It's more of a reference, not a logical necessity, and I thought it was a good reference of actual experience on the subject. And on top of that, you call them racists for pointing that out!

I mean, wow.

I pointed out the ridiculousness of acting like he couldn't be racist because he was old and black. There are plenty of people who are old, black and racist. It doesn't give him a pass. He needs to defend his claims based on what he actually said and what it means. Unfortunately he's said he'd not hire a Muslim because they would ALL try to pass Sharia law. How is that NOT a bigoted comment? 


And yet, dems are way more similar to reps than muslims are. So all this fuss is just political correctedness gone berserk.

[Brass Eye]I can't prove it, but that's a scientific fact![/Brass Eye]

Seriously? You're going to make a ridiculous comment like that and then claim political correctness? You don't think there are Muslim Republicans and Muslim Democrats?

Dems are not more similar. Your comment betrays that you hold the same bigoted views we've been having a go at him for. You've assumed that all Muslims hold the same political views. That's exactly what this discussion is about!
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Offline Unknown Target

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Quote

Cain told a reporter- if he became president – he would not appoint a Muslim to his cabinet or as a federal judge.

No, totally not prejudiced at all?
Webster
Quote
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2
a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
b : an instance of such judgment or opinion
c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

See definition 2.  I generally think religion, by in large, is dangerous to believe. At the same time, their specific beleif may vary, to not hire a more qualified person, who might even hold less destructive beliefs, because their particular god is named Allah, is silly. Especially considering that there are plenty of Republicans right now with dangerous beliefs, and only some of those are religious.

Is it OK to hire a Christian? Whether or not they're practicing, many people in Europe consider themselves some form of "Christian".

What if the individual in question has identified himself as Muslim on the census, but isn't any more Muslim than a Christian who only celebrates Christmas and who likewise wrote down "Christian" on the census?

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Quote
And yet, dems are way more similar to reps than muslims are. So all this fuss is just political correctedness gone berserk.

No, no it's not.

It's blatantly wrong and a gross misrepresentation of a very large group of people in the US.  It's as dumb as the following:

"I wouldn't appoint Christian judges because they'd all be sympathetic to abortion doctor murderers."
"I wouldn't appoint a Jewish judge because they'd all rule unfairly against Muslims."
or, a classic:  "All Muslims are potential terrorists."

It's taking the worst aspect of an entire group of people and branding them all with it, rather than considering each candidate on an individual basis.
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Offline Mars

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Unknown Target, I think you took my sarcasm seriously. Not sure.

Karajorma got most of what I wanted to say down, but lets have a look at this too:
Now to your point about bigotry, yes, I see the difference between a person "saying" he's a muslim and effectually behaving like a Sharia Law enforcer. So he is probably wrong on that account. But I have no statistics on this issue. He could well be right that a muslim judge is to be distrusted a priori.

Now read it like this.

Now to your point about bigotry, yes, I see the difference between a person "saying" he's a muslim and effectually behaving like a Sharia Law enforcer. So he is probably wrong on that account. But I have no statistics on this issue. He could well be right that a Christian judge is to be distrusted a priori.


Do you realize how absurd that is in this country? Or this:


Now to your point about bigotry, yes, I see the difference between a person "saying" he's a muslim and effectually behaving like a Sharia Law enforcer. So he is probably wrong on that account. But I have no statistics on this issue. He could well be right that a judge with any quirky, unprovable beliefs is to be distrusted a priori.


 

Offline Unknown Target

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Apologies, I thought you were being serious with your original post.

 

Offline Mars

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Apologies, I thought you were being serious with your original post.

No worries, it was rather unclear, I should have used tags XD