[Mongoose]

Didn't you start playing in, like, the past six months?

TF2 is still a good game, I guess, but it moved away from its original design tenets, and those tenets were very good. That's disappointing to me.

No, I started playing a bit under a year ago.  Granted, this was after the original nine class updates had completed, but it was (shortly) before the Mann-Conomy Update, which included the first big multi-class item dump.  So basically, I've been actively playing through the majority of the game's item expansions, and what I've seen is that the core gameplay really hasn't changed in any discernible sense.  The majority of the weapons added since the very start of TF2 are simple balance trade-offs, with only a select few (the Gunslinger, the Dead Ringer, the Kritzkreig) representing some level of change in the game's basic mechanics.  Each class is, for the most part, still fitting into the exact same roles they did when the game was first released (well, maybe not Demoman, but Demoknight is more for lulz than anything else).  The real kicker is that most skilled players will tell you that the original default weapons are still the best option in most situations...they usually provide the best all-around options, which is why you still see them used on a daily basis.  I really can't see how the game's design has changed in any fundamental fashion.

I think my big complaint is really about, like you said, how noisy the game has become. Depriving the player of the information they need to make moment-to-moment decisions and reactions, or burying this information under layers of complexity, reduces player agency and leads to frustration. I was really happy when I ditched TF2 for more cleanly designed games.

Now this I don't understand at all.  What information is the player being deprived of, exactly?  Does a new rocket launcher with somewhat-different stats change the basic fact that you should move the hell out of the way of said rockets?  As I said, the majority of weapons added to the game represent some degree of stat tweak...their fundamental mechanics are the same, so your decision-making process isn't going to change.  There haven't been any convoluted "layers of complexity" thrown into the game to perplex players, and player agency is still the primary driving force.  And the lovely thing is, if there is some sort of new weapon that you get killed by, its stats show up right in the killcam, so you can take that into account the next time you run into the player.  It's not all that difficult to learn what that crazy new Scout fish or Demoman sword does.

[pecenipicek]

Didn't you start playing in, like, the past six months?

TF2 is still a good game, I guess, but it moved away from its original design tenets, and those tenets were very good. That's disappointing to me.

No, I started playing a bit under a year ago.  Granted, this was after the original nine class updates had completed, but it was (shortly) before the Mann-Conomy Update, which included the first big multi-class item dump.  So basically, I've been actively playing through the majority of the game's item expansions, and what I've seen is that the core gameplay really hasn't changed in any discernible sense.  The majority of the weapons added since the very start of TF2 are simple balance trade-offs, with only a select few (the Gunslinger, the Dead Ringer, the Kritzkreig) representing some level of change in the game's basic mechanics.  Each class is, for the most part, still fitting into the exact same roles they did when the game was first released (well, maybe not Demoman, but Demoknight is more for lulz than anything else).  The real kicker is that most skilled players will tell you that the original default weapons are still the best option in most situations...they usually provide the best all-around options, which is why you still see them used on a daily basis.  I really can't see how the game's design has changed in any fundamental fashion.

I think my big complaint is really about, like you said, how noisy the game has become. Depriving the player of the information they need to make moment-to-moment decisions and reactions, or burying this information under layers of complexity, reduces player agency and leads to frustration. I was really happy when I ditched TF2 for more cleanly designed games.

Now this I don't understand at all.  What information is the player being deprived of, exactly?  Does a new rocket launcher with somewhat-different stats change the basic fact that you should move the hell out of the way of said rockets?  As I said, the majority of weapons added to the game represent some degree of stat tweak...their fundamental mechanics are the same, so your decision-making process isn't going to change.  There haven't been any convoluted "layers of complexity" thrown into the game to perplex players, and player agency is still the primary driving force.  And the lovely thing is, if there is some sort of new weapon that you get killed by, its stats show up right in the killcam, so you can take that into account the next time you run into the player.  It's not all that difficult to learn what that crazy new Scout fish or Demoman sword does.

i'm more pissed off by the fact that fartwads can now name their weapons and punt text in there. which is very irritating in 99% of the cases.

[General Battuta]

*words*

Are we actually going to reach any kind of agreement with this discussion?

the real kicker is that most skilled players will tell you

And please stop wasting time telling me **** I already know. ''Oh, the default items are better!' 'Oh, a window pops up when you're killed by a new item!" I played this game for a long time before you started, and I was pretty active discussing the metagame. My points are informed and drawn from experience.

Or, reading over your sentence, are you trying to imply I was bad at the game? That's not a very classy way to make a point.

ED: Come to think of it, you missed all the bull**** surrounding the Scout update, so you may not actually have seen some of TF2's worst design decisions. hahah the sandman

[Grizzly]

I think the main gist of Battutta's problem is (but this situation might be clouded because of what my problem with TF2 is) is that the interface, especially at the start, is just commuted with 'THIS ITEM! THIS PRICE! Buy now!" and that there's a lot of stuff added to the game that doesn't really do anything but still tries to attract your attention (Ooh, this is me! MEE! Watch mee! And instead of 'I am heavy weapons guy, and this is my weapon', the guy now has an entire library of miniguns which is bigger then his russian litirature one). It's rather annoying when you first started playing the game, when everyone just had one gun (or two, when I dropped in).

It's like driving trough a busy street with a lot of shops you never visit, all of them trying to attract your attention with their fancy neon lightning.

EDIT: http://www.gamebanana.com/guis/24128

[Mongoose]

*words*

Are we actually going to reach any kind of agreement with this discussion?

We'd have to actually have a discussion in order to do that, which is something you apparently don't want to do.

And please stop wasting time telling me **** I already know. ''Oh, the default items are better!' 'Oh, a window pops up when you're killed by a new item!" I played this game for a long time before you started, and I was pretty active discussing the metagame. My points are informed and drawn from experience.

Or, reading over your sentence, are you trying to imply I was bad at the game? That's not a very classy way to make a point.

ED: Come to think of it, you missed all the bull**** surrounding the Scout update, so you may not actually have seen some of TF2's worst design decisions. hahah the sandman

Y'know, for all your *****ing about some of my posts in here in the past, you've done a fantastic job of ****ting all over my post.  I love how I'm supposed to have some psychic intuition of how much you played the game in the past, or how involved you may have been with discussing its overall design, or how much you may know about how it's changed over the years.  And no, the thought of how skilled you may or may not be didn't even cross my mind when I wrote that, though I might be tempted to think as much in the future after this.

Seriously, Battuta, don't you think it's about time you let up on the whole holier-than-thou looking-down-my-nose act?  It stopped being amusing months ago, and I'm far from the only person around here who's sick of it.

(And people whined about the Sandman, of all things?  Cry some moar indeed.)

[General Battuta]

(And people whined about the Sandman, of all things?  Cry some moar indeed.)

Are you aware of how the Sandman worked when it was first implemented? Or the FaN? Do you know how much they needed to be nerfed to reach the states they're in today?

If not, why do you feel like you can comment on it?

And no, the thought of how skilled you may or may not be didn't even cross my mind when I wrote that, though I might be tempted to think as much in the future after this.

Then why did you out-and-out say I was not a skilled player? It's right there, I quoted it.

Seriously, Battuta, don't you think it's about time you let up on the whole holier-than-thou looking-down-my-nose act?  It stopped being amusing months ago, and I'm far from the only person around here who's sick of it.

Please stop trying to make a discussion about a cartoon video game into some kind of personal feud. If you're going to open a discussion by assuming that you know everything about a topic and the other person knows nothing, that's disrespectful, and you're going to get called out on it. That's just how it goes.

[General Battuta]

updated to clarify

[General Battuta]

Look, Mongoose, take a look at the history of the Sandman - a weapon which is now pretty well balanced.

March 13, 2009 Patch:

    * Players who are stunned by a Scout now take 50% less damage
    * Increased the minimum distance to stun a player with the Sandman

August 13, 2009 Patch (The Classless Update):

    * A Scout will receive 1 point for stunning an enemy and 2 points for a long range stun
    * Stunned players now take 75% of all incoming damage instead of 50%
    * Übercharged players can no longer be stunned
    * Heavies spinning their mini-guns will continue to spin when stunned (whether the left or right mouse button is pressed)
    * The minimum distance to stun a target has been reduced
    * The negative attribute has changed from "no double jump" to "-30 max health"

December 17, 2009 Patch:

    * The Sandman now only stuns on a max range hit (when you hear the cheering)
    * All shorter hits now force the enemy into the thirdperson fleeing state (also removed the damage reduction on them)
    * Penalty changed from -30 max health to -15 max health.

See that? In its initial state the Sandman:

1) Rendered you totally immobile (you couldn't move, couldn't attack, had no control; you stood in place until the stun expired)
2) Did this even through an ubercharge
3) Could do this at any range

Now the Sandman

1) Does not render you immobile unless you're hit at long range
2) Does not work through an uber
3) No longer removes control from the player

The game was an utter mess when this came out, and it's obvious why: it was bad design. It violated one of the core tenets of the game, one Valve had repeated over and over - that the player should never lose control. It also totally violated the psychology of the ubercharge; players stopped charging when ubered because they were afraid they'd just be Sandmanned. It was beyond dumb.

The days after the Scout update were just godawful. The FaN was also broken to hell and back, and with entire teams of scouts running around paralyzing and FaNning everything in sight, it stopped being fun and started being a chore. This was just one episode; we've had to go through a lot of periods like this, and the frustration just builds up.

The Sandman was eventually fixed. But it's these kind of design decisions which really began to cloud the experience and killed my interest in the game. You started playing well after most of the major changes had been made (and well into the period when Valve had started fixing some of them), and for all I know the game has really recovered since I stopped spending time on it. But as far as I can tell, while TF2 still has its charm, it's lost a lot of what made it truly great.

[Mongoose]

Are you aware of how the Sandman worked when it was first implemented? Or the FaN? Do you know how much they needed to be nerfed to reach the states they're in today?

If not, why do you feel like you can comment on it?

I am aware that both were nerfed, and I generally know how (though can't confirm, since the TF2 wiki is getting hammered today), but my point still stands.  It certainly wouldn't be the only weapon ever added to the game that Valve had to go back and tweak later...I played for several months before the Natascha was nerfed, and I saw more than my fare share of people whining about that, but even it could be fairly easily handled by the Heavy's natural counters.  In the same way, the Sandman's pre-nerf attributes could be avoided by not getting hit by the easily-visible ball.

EDIT: Yes, I agree that aspects of the original design were overpowered, but to remain frustrated at it after Valve listened to complaints from the playerbase, realized their errors, and corrected them seems rather absurd.  Considering that the Scout has the lowest amount of health in the game yet by its nature is almost always on the front lines, the whole original point of the Sandman was to help level the playing field...yes, they went too far at first, but they toned things back.  And I'm not really sure how "never losing control" could ever have been a core design tenet of the game when there's always been a class that can insantly one-shot you from halfway across a map without you ever getting the chance to do something about it.  A Heavy doesn't have any control at all when he's headshot...and in most instances, not much more than that when he's backstabbed.

Then why did you out-and-out say I was not a skilled player? It's right there, I quoted it.

Except I didn't.  I wasn't thinking of you at all when I wrote that sentence, nor indeed of myself, but of legitimate pro-level players.  Again, would you mind not attempting mind-reading?

Please stop trying to make a discussion about a cartoon video game into some kind of personal feud. If you're going to open a discussion by assuming that you know everything about a topic and the other person knows nothing, that's disrespectful, and you're going to get called out on it. That's just how it goes.

I never assumed that I knew everything about the game (far from it), and I'm rather curious as to how I was supposed to presume your own knowledge of the game when all you posted in here was a single one-liner about it.  This isn't some personal feud...it's the fact that you're reading insinuations into my comments that I never remotely intended in the first place, and that I think most reasonable people wouldn't pick up from them.  How am I supposed to react when your first response to my post is to insult me to my face?

[General Battuta]

I am aware that both were nerfed, and I generally know how (though can't confirm, since the TF2 wiki is getting hammered today), but my point still stands.  It certainly wouldn't be the only weapon ever added to the game that Valve had to go back and tweak later

The issue is that Valve started implementing content which violated the core design principles it used to build the game. 'Don't remove player control' is one example. 'Allow snap recognition of all classes (and their capabilities)' is another one that feels like it's really degraded.

It's no coincidence that most of the genuinely screwy items have been those that violated these design tenets - the initial Sandman and the superbroken-era Natasha are good examples. There are other items which do alter the gameplay which I think are excellent, like the Sandvich, but which ended up being broken because of related changes - the Heavy no longer has any real reason to use the shotgun due to spinup time changes.

TF2 was built to be an intuitive, transparent, high-agency team game which didn't require extraordinary amounts of poopsocking. While I don't think it's a bad game, I don't think it meets any of those standards any longer, and other games I play do.

On the other hand it is still quite frequently hilarious.

[BloodEagle]

You know, I remember when they introduced the backburner.

Damn, that was one overpowered weapon.  And it changed the way most people played the game.

....

Yeah, that's when it started going downhill.

[General Battuta]

You know, I remember when they introduced the backburner.

Damn, that was one overpowered weapon.  And it changed the way most people played the game.

....

Yeah, that's when it started going downhill.

Airblast bro, airblast is king of proro

[BloodEagle]

Not when the BB first came out.  It had so much bonus HP that you could solo a heavy on open-ground.

And then came the 'weapon-unlock' servers. 

[General Battuta]

I don't know, I like a lot of the earlyish addon weapons, when the focus was on cleaning up portions of the class gameplay that just weren't fun. Granted, the bonus HP on the backburner was a terrible idea, but the pyro was clearly in need of some help.

I think my pleasure curdled about the time they moved from big-idea 'patch a hole' items like the Sandvich to this sea of finely differentiated gadgetry. It's hard to know exactly what capabilities an opponent has any more, and therefore harder to plan actions on the second-by-second level. I can't pin down exactly when I started feeling this way - it started with the Scout, but might have really gone bad around the Classless Update or the WAR update? I can't remember.

ED: probably around the neighborhood of WAR and First Contribution

[Mongoose]

You know, I remember when they introduced the backburner.

Damn, that was one overpowered weapon.  And it changed the way most people played the game.

You mean the weapon that (until very recently) didn't have any airblast, which is one of the Pyro's most useful attributes?  Most people considered it a terrible weapon precisely because of that fact, since you were pretty much limited to playing ambush or being a W+M1 idiot while using it.  Even now that it has an airblast, the ammo cost for it is so high that it's essentially an emergency-use feature.  In most hands, the Degreaser + Axtinguisher combination is much more powerful.

The issue is that Valve started implementing content which violated the core design principles it used to build the game. 'Don't remove player control' is one example. 'Allow snap recognition of all classes (and their capabilities)' is another one that feels like it's really degraded.

As I said in the edit I slipped in above, I don't really see how never removing player control could ever be truly construed as a core tenet when there's always been at least one class, and sometimes two, that essentially do so as their fundamental mechanic.  Again, I agree that Valve went too far with that particular decision, but I also think that they had a good reason for doing so, considering the Scout's shortcomings.  I've switched away from the Sandman myself on occasion, but I always keep coming back to it, because it's something that helps me actually survive encounters with much more powerful classes.

As far as snap recognition goes, I've always taken that to mean the ability to tell classes apart at a glance based on their easily-identifiable silhouettes, and that hasn't really changed at all.  I do understand where someone like Joshua is coming from regarding identifying weapons and their uses, but on the moment-by-moment level, the majority of weapons use the same fundamental mechanics as the stock weapons, so your reactions to them don't change all that much.

It's no coincidence that most of the genuinely screwy items have been those that violated these design tenets - the initial Sandman and the superbroken-era Natasha are good examples. There are other items which do alter the gameplay which I think are excellent, like the Sandvich, but which ended up being broken because of related changes - the Heavy no longer has any real reason to use the shotgun due to spinup time changes.

The best Heavy player I know (the guy's just about pro-level) uses the Shotgun exclusively, I'd assume because of the ridiculous amount of mobility he's able to pull off with it.  I swear, the guy's harder to hit than most Scouts.  Even with reduced spin-up time, an actively-firing Heavy is a very cumbersome class in terms of movement, so having a weapon that allows you to be more mobile is still advantageous.  Plus, even in public servers, good Heavies usually wind up picking up a pocket Medic, so there's not as much incentive to carry around your own health pack.

TF2 was built to be an intuitive, transparent, high-agency team game which didn't require extraordinary amounts of poopsocking. While I don't think it's a bad game, I don't think it meets any of those standards any longer, and other games I play do.

On the other hand it is still quite frequently hilarious.

I would respectfully disagree, as I think it still fits most of that to at least some extent.  The explosion of weapon options is a valid concern, and I think it's one that Valve would probably like to do more to solve, though there are at least some mitigating factors that they have been able to implement.  (Giving the player access to all weapons in offline practice might be a good idea.)  But while it may have shifted away from some of those tenets somewhat, I think that what it represents in terms of a developer's long-term commitment to actively expanding and experimenting with a product more than makes up for it.  It's certainly the most engaging multiplayer experience I've ever found anywhere myself.

[General Battuta]

You mean the weapon that (until very recently) didn't have any airblast, which is one of the Pyro's most useful attributes?  Most people considered it a terrible weapon precisely because of that fact, since you were pretty much limited to playing ambush or being a W+M1 idiot while using it.  Even now that it has an airblast, the ammo cost for it is so high that it's essentially an emergency-use feature.  In most hands, the Degreaser + Axtinguisher combination is much more powerful.

He's talking about the Backburner when it was introduced. The Degreaser didn't exist and the Backburner gave you extra HP.

As I said in the edit I slipped in above, I don't really see how never removing player control could ever be truly construed as a core tenet when there's always been at least one class, and sometimes two, that essentially do so as their fundamental mechanic.

No they don't. Not a single thing about the sniper or spy removes any form of player control. (That said the sniper is a terrible class and Valve's efforts to fix this have been pretty cool).

As far as snap recognition goes, I've always taken that to mean the ability to tell classes apart at a glance based on their easily-identifiable silhouettes, and that hasn't really changed at all.

That signal no longer couples with the gameplay information it was meant to in the original design.  I'm just not fond of the increased entropy of the information going into the moment-by-moment decision loop.

As a gamer I want agency. I don't like Team Fortress 2 steadily robbing me of it.

[General Battuta]

All these very serious words said I am probably going to play the game some more just so I can use the riding crop :V:

[Mongoose]

See?  Sadism conquers all!

(the real joy of that thing is that everyone whacks their teammates already, but now it actually does something productive)

[Grizzly]

It was quite fun today, actually. Played as an heavy for half an hour and I broke some kill records.

Oh, Batutta. A few posts you said that Demo was the most powerfull combat class. I don't really see how that is, but that might just be because the Demoman is the only class I really can't get a hang off.

[Mongoose]

Man I want that new Heavy minigun.  The sound effect for it is fantastic.