[JerichoDeath]

The crews may have defected, but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they'd be willing to turn around and kill their former comrades. Plus there's a high likelihood that a significant  fraction of the crew disagreed with the decision to defect, so at least part of the crew would be new by neccessity. Finally, the UEF might not entirely trust the entire crew enough to allow them to stay with their ship - you might not be able to guarantee they'd follow orders, for example, to kill rather than disable GTVA ships - and replaced the crews entirely.

True, but even if most (if not all) of the crew was replaced with UEF personnel, I think that the war has been going on long enough for them to be at least competent in the running of the ship.
Personally, I suspect the Fedayeen to be controlling the Duke and Labouchere. That could be how they are brought into the game again (when Noemi sees them in action).

The Solice, I think, was mentioned in reference to that mysterious "project".

Also, I wasn't arguing that the two ships would make a world of difference, but every ship counts, right? As for that physiological thing - I think that lends support to the Fedayeen controlling them secretly, and them avoiding the problems associated with using them publicly.

[Drogoth]

I completely disagree that 18 months is long enough to get up to snuff running the kind of hardware we're talking about here. Not only are the UEF personnel not trained with this hardware, there is no way to replace defective parts in a timely fashion. It's probably far more effective to hold these ships for a research role then it is to operate them. I doubt the UEF has the capacity to replace parts that could be defective or damaged in combat on the ships. (I'm looking at you beam weapons). While the Solace and Agincourt would undoubtedly be able to handle those repairs, it only goes on for so long. Factor in that the Duke and Labouchere are the only ships with this kind of offensive hardware that the UEF has access to and putting them into combat is frankly far to much of a risk.

IF they are being operated in a military fashion rather then just serving as technological treasure troves then we are at least in agreement that highly senior elements of the military or the Fedayeen are the ones handling them. Either way, the people on those ships possess sky high clearance levels ad have intricate knowledge of deeply classified data (Byrne's project for example). It would be a nightmare for the UEF if Steele were to capture these vessels and their personnel, and I guarantee Steele would know the weaknesses of those ships far better then the UEF would, and he would exploit it to recapture them ASAP

They also don't fit into the deployment posture of the UEF very well. Corvettes simply don't fit as independent operators in a Frigate heavy fleet, they don't bring enough combat power to sustain themselves on their own, doubly so for the Chimera, with all of its heavy firepower directed forward. Easy to outmaneuver, and the UEF does not have the capacity to keep that corvette secure from ambush unless its tied down in defensive posture. The Hyperion could fit into the role of the Sanctus I suppose, but it would be awkward fitting that into effective doctrine with a fleet that is well trained and works well together. The new crew would be green, inexperienced, and their fellow ships would not be able to support them effectively, or be supported effectively due to lack of familiarity.

Factor in UEF fighter doctrine and its a total recipe for disastor. We've read the reasons that UEF fighters stay close to their ships... and why Tevs don't. As soon as we start telling UEF fighters to avoids the beams so they wont get hit, they push far from their ships and into an unsupported environment. Superior fighters or not, the UEF is best served by serving in the element it is used to. Introducing these ships for PR value could be a tactical and ultimately strategic misstep on the highest order. The firepower they bring to bear isn't enough to change that

[TwentyPercentCooler]

Using those ships in a decisive battle that concludes in the UEF's favor would have huge psychological impact on the GTVA, sort of like salt in the proverbial wounds.

Or it would send the message "we can't win with our own ships, so we need to use GTVA ships to win" to both sides and thus reduce the morale impact on the GTVA while hampering the morale gain of the UEF troops.

I don't mean that two ships would be enough to turn the tide of battle in the UEF's favor, but if they were present in a battle that already favored the UEF in outcome, it reminds the GTVA crews fighting against them that they have very little moral support. What effect that might have, I don't know - the psychologists and sociologists and are undoubtedly employed by both sides would be better able to say than I. But after taking as many pictures as possible, evaluating the technology, and debriefing the crews, what else is there to do with those two warships but use them (aside from moral objection, see the 2nd paragraph)? The UEF is up against a wall, it would be ridiculous to keep two perfectly good warships in space dock. 18 months is more than enough time for experienced techs to learn all they can from the ships, keeping in mind that it's likely they got a few GTVA engineers in the defection.

It would be a mistake to overestimate the usefulness of reverse engineering - it can actually be harder to reverse engineer and build a replica than it would to simply develop the technology yourself. I don't think we'll see the UEF making beam cannons anytime soon. They have the same data from the Lucifer as the GTA did after the end of the Great War, and comparable industrial and research capacity. Recall that in the first mission of War in Heaven, the comms officer in one of the cruisers says something about "watching the ghosts of the Lucifer's own weapons" carving up his comrades. That suggests that the UEF didn't go down the path of building their own beam weapons because in their ideology, it seemed too much like they would become the Shivans. And the GTVA seems to be doing just that. They copied their weapons, they copied their tactics, and now they're even willing to destroy their own race because they don't agree with their politics. It's a dark road.

I think it's more likely that, instead of seeing beams on UEF ships, we'll simply be seeing more ECM and ECCM. Reverse engineering may not be good for copying hardware but they'll certainly learn a hell of a lot about the computer systems aboard GTVA vessels. Targeting, automation, navigation, etc. A targeted computer virus that will shut down a whole GTVA fleet for a few minutes? A wing of Vajrahadras with ECM that will spoof GTVA targeting systems and essentially render them invisible to GTVA sensors? The possibilities are staggering, and I know the BP team is going to come up with something awesome. 

[-Norbert-]

Would the UEF even need to reverse engineer beamcannons from the parts in the Labouchere and Duke?
I mean they got two logistics ships and while the Solace might have been depleted, the Agincourt surely was well supplyed when it was taken over. That includes parts for beamcannons or maybe even fully assembled pieces of the smaller ones (AAA or the cruiser beams come to mind).
And unless both Anemois databanks were completely purged by GTVA loyal crewmembers, the UEF is bound to have very extensive data on beamcannon technology from one or both of those ships too (and a few technicians who defected, like TwentyPercentCooler already said). There should really be no need to take apart the two combatships, unless it has something to do with studying their meson reactors perhaps.


As for mixing GTVA and UEF crews on those two ships, I think that might be a bad idea. We don't have much information about the training of GTVA and UEF crews, but considering the differences in culture, philosophy and government I suspect it to be quite extensive. And in the missions we already heard (or rather saw) that the UEF seems to use different terminology ("vampires approaching, fangs out"or somesuch for example).
Put the terminology and crew taining differences together and possibly some crewmembers feeling themselfs superiour to the member of the other faction and you likely end up with a mixed crew working less effective than a crew of greenhorns that all had the same training.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

Would the UEF even need to reverse engineer beamcannons from the parts in the Labouchere and Duke?
I mean they got two logistics ships and while the Solace might have been depleted, the Agincourt surely was well supplyed when it was taken over. That includes parts for beamcannons or maybe even fully assembled pieces of the smaller ones (AAA or the cruiser beams come to mind).
And unless both Anemois databanks were completely purged by GTVA loyal crewmembers, the UEF is bound to have very extensive data on beamcannon technology from one or both of those ships too (and a few technicians who defected, like TwentyPercentCooler already said). There should really be no need to take apart the two combatships, unless it has something to do with studying their meson reactors perhaps.


As for mixing GTVA and UEF crews on those two ships, I think that might be a bad idea. We don't have much information about the training of GTVA and UEF crews, but considering the differences in culture, philosophy and government I suspect it to be quite extensive. And in the missions we already heard (or rather saw) that the UEF seems to use different terminology ("vampires approaching, fangs out"or somesuch for example).
Put the terminology and crew taining differences together and possibly some crewmembers feeling themselfs superiour to the member of the other faction and you likely end up with a mixed crew working less effective than a crew of greenhorns that all had the same training.

Yeah, reverse engineering is pretty unlikely - it never works as well as people think it would. Like I said, the UEF started in parity with the GTA after the Great War with the data from studying the Shivan technology. I don't think they really want beam weaponry. The Labouchere and the Duke, plus the two Anemois, are a veritable treasure trove of information, though. They have all the GTVAs computer systems to break down and study, information on armor composition, reactor design, propulsion systems, and information on weapons like the Balor and TAG missiles. Information is power, and the more the UEF knows about all of those things, the better it can combat them. Studying the TAG beacons would be especially helpful in avoiding losing assets to TAG-assisted targeting. Since there's no canon information saying that the GTVA has captured any UEF vessels (unless I'm mistaken; I'm hardly an expert), the UEF seems to have the upper hand in information warfare at the moment.

Since they have a smaller Navy that's rapidly dwindling, they need that kind of force multiplication. There's a whole bag of tricks they can pull from if they're smart about using the information that they have. Spoofing GTVA sensors to sneak-attack a destroyer with some Sledgehammer-armed Durgas to disable it and leave it vulnerable before it can react? Converting TAG-C missiles to plant beacons for their own subspace missile strikes? Improving their reactor design to increase the maximum speed of their remaining ships, or increase the intensity of the magnetic field on mass driver cannons for a higher muzzle velocity? Developing better penetrator rounds specifically designed to smash GTVA alloys on their newer vessels (which happen to be the most dangerous)? I just came up with those off the top of my head. No doubt the BP team has even more surprises in mind.

[StargateSpankyHam]

If anything, I think that the closest thing to a UEF ace-in-the-hole, if there's going to be one, will likely be the GTC Duke. The ship's crew was completely overtaken by the Vishnans during AoA, and at the very least, they managed to push the subspace drive far beyond its standard operating limits. It's quite conceivable that there's still Vishnan data floating around inside the Duke's computers.

If this is the case, the imagination truly is the limit. Will we see superweapons? Some anti-subspace device? Telepathic hacking?

Never mind, the GTC Duke is the perfect ship for a behind-the-scenes, secret escort mission. Cruisers are weak and vulnerable, and some random heavy fighter squadron could pose a significant threat to it. Unlike escorting a destroyer, the Tevs would not need to discover the UEF's secret mission and mount a full-scale assault, to have a decent shot at taking it out.

Never mind, if they can somehow sneak through the Delta Serpentis node (cloaking device, decoys, diversion, extensive jamming, etc), there's the N-362 Knossos portal. The Vishnans needed a giant ship to alter the node for trans-dimensional transit. A reconfiguration of the portal may be able to accomplish the same thing. They could perhaps open a node through space and time.

The BP team never fails to impress. Just when I thought it couldn't get any cooler than a mod involving travelling to a parallel universe infested with Shivans, they launched War in Heaven...which was the best gaming experience I've ever had. Whatever they are planning for BP3, I have little doubt that it will be awesome.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

If anything, I think that the closest thing to a UEF ace-in-the-hole, if there's going to be one, will likely be the GTC Duke. The ship's crew was completely overtaken by the Vishnans during AoA, and at the very least, they managed to push the subspace drive far beyond its standard operating limits. It's quite conceivable that there's still Vishnan data floating around inside the Duke's computers.

If this is the case, the imagination truly is the limit. Will we see superweapons? Some anti-subspace device? Telepathic hacking?

Never mind, the GTC Duke is the perfect ship for a behind-the-scenes, secret escort mission. Cruisers are weak and vulnerable, and some random heavy fighter squadron could pose a significant threat to it. Unlike escorting a destroyer, the Tevs would not need to discover the UEF's secret mission and mount a full-scale assault, to have a decent shot at taking it out.

Never mind, if they can somehow sneak through the Delta Serpentis node (cloaking device, decoys, diversion, extensive jamming, etc), there's the N-362 Knossos portal. The Vishnans needed a giant ship to alter the node for trans-dimensional transit. A reconfiguration of the portal may be able to accomplish the same thing. They could perhaps open a node through space and time.

The BP team never fails to impress. Just when I thought it couldn't get any cooler than a mod involving travelling to a parallel universe infested with Shivans, they launched War in Heaven...which was the best gaming experience I've ever had. Whatever they are planning for BP3, I have little doubt that it will be awesome.

Yeah, they have a ridiculous spectrum of possibilities to draw from. And it'll definitely be awesome.

Personally, I'm hoping it will be something a little more conventional than relying on anything Vishnan, though. I don't trust those...things. Their motives are questionable, at best. The UEF seems to me like they like to rely on human ingenuity and creativity to solve problems.

But, it's not my story, so I'll just patiently wait for WiH R2 and allow it to blow my mind when it comes out anyway. 

[JerichoDeath]

I recently played through FS1 again, and I noticed that most of the best weapon projects seemed to have been built in, or around, Sol system. Plus, like you guys said, they already had the data that they really needed for analyzing beam weapon technology, in essence. Likely, they didn't want to associate with it.

On the other hand, what do you think of supplementing some 1st Fleet frigates with a forward (and maybe aft) beam cannon? The pilots would know to stay away from there because of the railguns and such. Why not add a bit of firepower to the ships that have (possibly) access to the Solice and Agincourt?

-
I still don't think that they would risk using greenhorns to pilot such important(?) ships, though. Considering the level of trust that they (I'm assuming) are placing in the Bei family, why couldn't the original crew use their ships? If they are being used in a military capacity, of course. Putting aside the issue with parts of the crew disagreeing the defecting decision (the ships would be unlikely to defect in the first place if that large of a portion of the crew disagreed, I think)

[LordPomposity]

On the other hand, what do you think of supplementing some 1st Fleet frigates with a forward (and maybe aft) beam cannon? The pilots would know to stay away from there because of the railguns and such. Why not add a bit of firepower to the ships that have (possibly) access to the Solice and Agincourt?

I doubt it's that easy. The Chimera and Bellerephon models are essentially beam cannons with engines; any UEF ships that used beams would similarly need to be designed and built around the beam cannons rather than have them added post-construction.

[Scotty]

The Fenris, Leviathan, and Orion laugh at your statement.

[Flak]

Reverse engineering is one thing, but putting them into mass production is another. It is actually easier to just salvage them from destroyed tev ships and jury rig them to ships that can carry them.

[-Norbert-]

Considering that in WiH ships try to escape before death and usually the beam cannons are the first thing that is disabled, there isn't really much so salvage in this regard. The "than can carry them" part is also problematic. Can UEF ships carry beamweapons without extensive rebuilding?

On the other hand, what do you think of supplementing some 1st Fleet frigates with a forward (and maybe aft) beam cannon? The pilots would know to stay away from there because of the railguns and such. Why not add a bit of firepower to the ships that have (possibly) access to the Solice and Agincourt?

I doubt it's that easy. The Chimera and Bellerephon models are essentially beam cannons with engines; any UEF ships that used beams would similarly need to be designed and built around the beam cannons rather than have them added post-construction.

On the other hand the Naras big guns also have quite long barrels.

I think the bigger problem might be the power/ammunition supply.
Do we know how exactly beamcannons get their plasma? Are they supplyed with some "raw material" that is heated up inside the cannon, or do they drain plasma right out of the reactor? If it is the latter you'd need some delivery system from the reactor to the cannon, were right now the UEF only needs cables, since electricity is enough to make gausscannons and massdrivers fire (plus the ammunition of course). Either way it's likely they'd need a stronger reactor to sustain the ship functions and the beams.

I suppose if they replaced the ammunition-based weapons with beams, they could always use the room that was used to store ammunition to cram in auxilary reactors for the beams, but that would also mean they'd need take out the ammunition delivery systems and replace them with conduits, build in cooling systems for the auxilary reactors, ect.
For all those reasons I very much doubt putting beamcannons on UEF ships is something done quickly, if it's even possible.

Better to incorporate the beams into ships, currently under construction than to try jury-rigging the currently active ships, or better yet, design a new shiptype from the ground up.

[JerichoDeath]

Couldn't the UEF update some of their own Orion-class ships? We've seen what the Carthage was able to do, and how much damage it was able to take.

Also, considering how quickly the Agincourt was able to repair/replace parts of the UEF ships that captured it, I'm not so sure that the process would be entirely too time-consuming if they had the right facility. The Agincourt wasn't designed to repair ships of those specs, and yet...

Also, speaking of the Agincourt, how quickly would it be able to repair the disabled/destroyed beam-cannons of captured ships? Just putting that out there.

[-Norbert-]

Did you just compare the fixing up of fighters with completely rebuilding a capital ships?
As for the Orions, I suppose they were scrapped when the GTA was dissolved. They were after all a symbol of GTA authority and militarism, so getting rid of them would discourage any remaining followers from rebelling in the period were the Ubuntu party rose to power.
Also, unlike the GTVAs Hecate, the Solaris is superiour to the (old, non beam) Orion in every way, except perhaps the ability to fly independently without any supply - a situation being unlikely in the extreme within sol.

[Flak]

It appears possible to rig the SBlues and SGreens from destroyed tev cruisers into the Sanctus, at the cost of stripping its railguns and torpedoes. It is still quite doubtful if the Karunas and Narayanas can use the Chimera beams, considering how much modifications it would require. The anti fighter beams on the other hand is quite readily used, but considering how deadly effective the PDS turrets on UEF ships are, they are unecessary modifications.

[LordPomposity]

The Fenris, Leviathan, and Orion laugh at your statement.

Not really a fair comparison. The Fenris, Leviathan, and Orion weren't designed with beams in mind, but the beams were presumably designed with the Fenris, Leviathan, and Orion in mind.

[JerichoDeath]

Did you just compare the fixing up of fighters with completely rebuilding a capital ships?
As for the Orions, I suppose they were scrapped when the GTA was dissolved. They were after all a symbol of GTA authority and militarism, so getting rid of them would discourage any remaining followers from rebelling in the period were the Ubuntu party rose to power.
Also, unlike the GTVAs Hecate, the Solaris is superiour to the (old, non beam) Orion in every way, except perhaps the ability to fly independently without any supply - a situation being unlikely in the extreme within sol.

-No, I didn't... I'm pretty sure that ship partially repaired the frigates. Although, I'd have to replay to be sure. I know it said something about running on full efficiency, and I think the frigates were at full health for the next mission.

-More likely, the Orions were "mothballed". I know about what happens to old ships like that. So, I don't see the problem with breaking out one or two. Unless of course, the GTVA attack on Earth specifically targeted mothball fleets too.
-Also, I doubt I'm the only one who remembers the existence of the Sanctuary. Although, I will admit that ship was really different from your standard Orion.

[-Norbert-]

Now that you mention it, the Sanctuary does have one advantage. It was designed to be self sufficient and sustain a lot of people in cold sleep.
If they switch those systems off, they got a lot of excess energy and if they completely remove them, they also got a lot of free space (no pun intended) inside the ship. At the very least this should enable them to put in loads of massdrivers, even if they can't outfit it with beams.

As for the frigates, I think they were able to do all those repairs not so much because of the parts the Agincourt carried, but because of the personel, raw materials (for hull repairs) and most of all several days (wasn't it two weeks?) without anything else to do and very little danger of getting into battle, since they were making a silent run in the middle of nowhere.

[The E]

-More likely, the Orions were "mothballed". I know about what happens to old ships like that. So, I don't see the problem with breaking out one or two. Unless of course, the GTVA attack on Earth specifically targeted mothball fleets too.

Wrong. There are no ex-GTA Orions available for reactivation. Even if they were, the UEF does not have the ressources to spare to bring them up to serviceable condition (all yard space is taken up by repair work or for new construction), and their manpower requirements are such that the UEF does not have the personnel required to operate them.

And that's assuming that there still are old Orions in mothballs; there are none.

[MatthTheGeek]

Contrary to remaining GTVA Orions in service, that were probably built 10 or even 20 years after the Great War, UEF's hypothetical GW-era Orions would probably be far to be in anything near a serviceable state after half a century of mothballing anyway. At that state of decay, it's not worth retrofitting.