[technopredator]

My 2 cents:

Would be useful to have a kind of automatic "redirection" or compatibility handling system, so when a an error occurs when some mod asks for a retail resource it could be redirected by this system to the latest installed FS2O/MVP ones. Also a similar tool, to go and automatically update a given old mod to point to the newest resources. I suppose FSU has already standard files & resources to point at if any new mod that someone might want to develop, if not I think you should have one. Also a way to address the new additions that coders/artists add all the time to FSU and their own mods.

In short, standards, a harmonious & easy way to address resources for FSU & mods.

Also I think would be also useful to have a tool that indicates the modder that the resource, for example, is standard but not available and give a list of available replacements, with thumb views if possible, if they're tiles or other graphic resources. I don't have a clue what tool set you need to develop a mod or  FSU, but I think would be nice to have the tools I mentioned, on the fly, integrated in the tool set, to continue developing without leaving your developing environment and lose inspiration/concentration.

If what I suggest already exists, the better, I hope that is the case.

Cheers.

PS: I'm attaching 'fs2_open.log' because I found error even though I can play the game just fine; can anyone tell me what those errors are?. Are they old resources-related or something else, I have made a clean SSE2 install with MediaVP both 3.6.12, fresh pilot, only with 'aqmouse' & 'Shields' mods active.

For convenience I have selected the error below, with 1 line before and 1 after so you can locate better where the error is. I hope it helps and not confuse you instead.

Code: [Select]

SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...

---

texture_pool: creating new 1360x768 texture
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...

---

TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...

---

TrackIR Init Failed - 1
Movie Error:  Unable to open 'intro' movie in any supported format.
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)

---

IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x25d2520e, IBX checksum: 0xb4c1376d -- "mx-50.pof"
DDS ERROR: Couldn't open 'wep-mx50-shine.dds' -- DDS was in an unsupported/unknown format
Loading model 'debris01.pof'

[attachment deleted by a ninja]

[mjn.mixael]

I... Uh.. hmmm...

Ok, well first of all, FSU is not in the business of making sure that every old mod out there remains compatible with the latest MediaVPs. We make sure that FS2 still plays like FS2. Beyond that however, we are willing to lend a hand, answer questions, etc. with the mod designers out there to ensure a quick transition to the latest release. However, a tool like you suggest simply seems like way more work than it's worth.

Besides that, there are already standards of sorts. In general, if it is an asset from retail you can bet that the new asset will be as close to drop-in compatible as possible. The issue this specific thread addresses is the removal of upgraded retail tile maps because models nowadays aren't being tilemapped. That issue has been solved with a tile map package that we'll keep updated.

Your issues don't seem entirely related, and off the top having only looked over your log highlights... I'm going to guess something was installed incorrectly or you are using a mod that is built for an older MediaVPs.

[headdie]

SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...

this is more of a note than an error, basically its saying there is no scripts running with the mod so is only of concern if there are supposed to be scripts

TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...

again an optional table so no issues there apart from i though MVP uses an armour table for the penetrating weapon hits?

TrackIR Init Failed - 1
Movie Error:  Unable to open 'intro' movie in any supported format.
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)

your cinematic files use the retail and depreciated file format

IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x25d2520e, IBX checksum: 0xb4c1376d -- "mx-50.pof"
DDS ERROR: Couldn't open 'wep-mx50-shine.dds' -- DDS was in an unsupported/unknown format

This is the interesting one and would suggest a corrupt shine map file.


ohh and you should be able to attach log, tbm and tbl files directly to a forum post here without needing to use a zip as a container file

[The E]

The various tbl warnings are meaningless. scripting.tbl and armor.tbl are almost never used, because using the associated tbms (-sct and -amr) is much more convenient. interface.tbl does not work and has not worked ever.

[technopredator]

@mjn.mixael: I have seen mods that might have improvements that could benefit the entire community, like shaders and stuff, instead they're exclusive to a single mod, so IMO what I think you guys lack here is organization and seems nobody is interested in doing so, or at least that organization is not apparent to me from the dozens of post I have read in every thread, so what I suggested was a small organization  point, for better handling of resources, a more efficient way so people don't get lost wondering, making posts taking unnecessarily your time you need for other things. What I wanted was tools to locate resources faster, in a better way, but well, what do I know... as I wrote, my 2 cents...

And my problem is realted since that mx-50 is a retail item and I thought and the shine file I thought was new effect that wasn't working on the old missile much like the tiles with newer resources, so from that POV my .log is related. Nothing installed wrong, I did as I wrote and all is OK, I just ran the debug version to check if everything was actually OK and I found those error messages.

@headdie: thx for the clarification, I'll look into that file.

I upload in .7z because I like efficiency:  I found no need to move files uncompressed over the Internet since is not that fast yet, not for evreybody, not for me, and the bandwidth could be spared for others to use, hence I rather prefer send compressed files over the Internet; besides 7.zip is opensource freeware and probably the 1 of the best, if not best,  compressor out there, the file I sent is compressed 5.62:1. Also I save space on the server, which I think it also helps, because is efficient.

@E: Thx for the clarification. Would be better to get rid of useless references?

[The E]

I have seen mods that might have improvements that could benefit the entire community, like shaders and stuff, instead they're exclusive to a single mod,

Wrong. There is very little that is exclusive to a single mod nowadays, except for custom models or music. Things like the shaders, which have been around for over a year now, are publically released. That a given mod decides to incorporate them as a required feature is a consequence of that (And seriously, as the guy who co-wrote the current shaders, I will incorporate them in any mod I am part of).

Second, the tool you want. What is it supposed to do? It sounds to me like it's supposed to work in exactly the same way as the current mod system works. Which would make this tool redundant at best, a nuisance at worst. I mean, as someone who said he wanted to get into coding, why don't you try to implement it?

so IMO what I think you guys lack here is organization and seems nobody is interested in doing so

I am sure Zacam will have some choice words here, but just for myself, I think your misconceptions are amusing. Do you honestly think projects like the SCP and FSU would be possible without some fairly strict organization? Or maybe I am misreading what you were trying to say here. Please elaborate on that point some more if I am.

I upload in .7z because I like efficiency:  I found no need to move files uncompressed over the Internet since is not that fast yet, not for evreybody, not for me, and the bandwidth could be spared for others to use, hence I rather prefer send compressed files over the Internet; besides 7.zip is opensource freeware and probably the 1 of the best, if not best,  compressor out there, the file I sent is compressed 5.62:1. Also I save space on the server, which I think it also helps, because is efficient.

All of that is true. But you are talking about compressing a file that is 38 kb to one that is 6 kb large. In this case, the increase in inconvenience (because one has to uncompress the file before opening it) far outweighs the space saving potential.

[headdie]

with Mod.ini able reference multiple other mods there is little need for different mod groups to co-ordinate.  Also once a mod is released unless otherwise stated everything in it is generally considered a public resource anyway.  Lastly this is a fan community where everything is done on a voluntary basis for the benefit of the community, so outside of the mod teams and site admins/moderators there is no one person or group in control making forced co-ordination impossible (not to mention generally unwanted) and with resources stashed all over the place, the closest thing there is to a central depositary is freespacemods.net but then there is significant number of assets not stored there or only stored there as a part of a released mod.   All this makes any attempt to make a universal asset catalogue and download tool a colossal project that would need constant maintenance and as it stands the community has difficulty keeping the damn installers working and up-to-date at times.

[CaptJosh]

In other words, if you think it's such a great idea, you do it, smartass. This modding community is not our whole lives. Most of us have school, jobs, families, and other offline concerns. This is something that is done in spare time. Hard Light Productions is NOT a game development company like Volition or Valve. It's a gathering place for modders who do things, again, in their SPARE TIME.

[mjn.mixael]

So you want a tool that can read the modpack, debug it, version it, and then search HLP for missing or updated assets? OK. This tool will need to be able to read all the various mod related file types (images, models, tables, sounds, etc.) and VPs. It will need to be able to compare checksums and MD5 tags. It will need to be able to compare file versions so some sort of versioning system will be necessary... I suppose our SVN could work for that. It will need a downloader. It will need an up-to-date catalog of all available assets...

Sounds to me like you want something to flat out mod for you, which is not a tool that will be simple to create. Not to mention that anyone who is looking to do all of that, shouldn't be relying on an auto-tool. Mods should be run with the MediaVPs they were made for, nothing more, nothing less. If they are to be updated, FSCRP is that way -->.

[technopredator]

Wrong. There is very little that is exclusive to a single mod nowadays, except for custom models or music. Things like the shaders, which have been around for over a year now, are publically released. That a given mod decides to incorporate them as a required feature is a consequence of that (And seriously, as the guy who co-wrote the current shaders, I will incorporate them in any mod I am part of).

Second, the tool you want. What is it supposed to do? It sounds to me like it's supposed to work in exactly the same way as the current mod system works. Which would make this tool redundant at best, a nuisance at worst. I mean, as someone who said he wanted to get into coding, why don't you try to implement it?

No so wrong because I have seen threads with mod specific coding to improve some their mods and I was the only one making a late suggestion to share that with the community on some cases on some I just passed, I think if they wanted to share they would have done so, or maybe the sharing is automatic in some way and is not apparent to the forum reader.

Your condescending and pedant tone only make you look unwise for a guy that I assume is smart given the kind of work you do and the previous answers you gave me, but as you said I could be mistaken by assuming too much. I see you can't take constructive critics well, you're all worked out now, shame, I think I assumed too much again. I wrote if that was already implemented the better and I hoped it was already implemented, you didn't need to redundant on that one, a simple "already done in this tool would have sufficed", but you're pissed off, that's OK, I thought this was a friendly place to share ideas & contructive criticism, I never intended to be pedant I only was giving suggestions, but well ... no wonder many complain that when you share your ideas here you get bully-banned by mods, so be it.

I am sure Zacam will have some choice words here, but just for myself, I think your misconceptions are amusing. Do you honestly think projects like the SCP and FSU would be possible without some fairly strict organization? Or maybe I am misreading what you were trying to say here. Please elaborate on that point some more if I am.

Maybe I'm amusing but at least I'm being positive & not trying to download my passive aggressiveness to another. I do honestly think so yes, because nobody give any reference to any standard as such, only "this is invalid", "this should be like this", or "make it like that", no reference to formats, docs, tutorials, etc. I have seen people making fairly thorough guides but that's about it, maybe that's ll you need, but somehow I don't think so for the nature of the questions on modding.

All of that is true. But you are talking about compressing a file that is 38 kb to one that is 6 kb large. In this case, the increase in inconvenience (because one has to uncompress the file before opening it) far outweighs the space saving potential.

If you're on the server decompressing there, yes is inefficient but if you're on another PC is not since you can delete after checking it out, and keep the compressed file if necessary. How come 1 "enter" key press or 1 double-click is an inconvenience? are you handicapped? I always prefer compressed files to download even the small one, I've learned to appreciate that once I have downloaded a lot of files. I think you're just upset and want to find inconvenience where there is none just to piss me off too.

[The E]

No so wrong because I have seen threads with mod specific coding to improve some their mods and I was the only one making a late suggestion to share that with the community on some cases on some I just passed, I think if they wanted to share they would have done so, or maybe the sharing is automatic in some way and is not apparent to the forum reader.

What "mod-specific coding" are you talking about? If it's features in FSO that were developed by a specific mod team to fulfill that mods' needs, then I have to tell you you're wrong because once it's in the engine, it's not mod-specific anymore. Those things are automatically shared to everyone because the engine is shared by everyone.

If you are talking about tables for a specific mod (like Blue Planet's AI table, or scripts used by a specific mod) then those are only exclusive for as long as the mod that is using them isn't released; in some cases, specific features will be given public test runs (as was the case with the BP AI, or the new shaders). And yeah, once it's released, it's released, and there is only one case in recent history where the authors actively forbade the use of their assets outside of a specific mod (that case being The Babylon Project, and only covering the original TBP 3.4 release). I am pretty sure that, if you want to copy a feature from another mod, there is nothing stopping you from doing so. And if you want to know how something was done, then asking the people who did it is always possible. Not to mention that most things can be figured out through extensive use of the wiki.

I see you can't take constructive critics well, you're all worked out now, shame, I think I assumed too much again. I wrote if that was already implemented the better and I hoped it was already implemented, you didn't need to redundant on that one, a simple "already done in this tool would have sufficed", but you're pissed off, that's OK, I thought this was a friendly place to share ideas & contructive criticism, I never intended to be pedant I only was giving suggestions, but well ... no wonder many complain that when you share your ideas here you get bully-banned by mods, so be it.

Unless I am actively stating that I am acting in my capacity as a moderator, it should be assumed that I am not doing so.
That being said, I do apologize for my tone here. I definitely was somewhat annoyed, and it shouldn't have come through as much. My apologies for that.

Now, regarding your specific proposals, as headdie said, they are good ideas, but they are not really workable for us. An online cross-referencing tool (and it would have to be online) is only as good as the references used. Updating those references, and keeping the infrastructure behind it running (servers do cost money, after all) is a nontrivial task, and risks falling to obsolescence once the people running it are losing interest.

Maybe I'm amusing but at least I'm being positive & not trying to download my passive aggressiveness to another. I do honestly think so yes, because nobody give any reference to any standard as such, only "this is invalid", "this should be like this", or "make it like that", no reference to formats, docs, tutorials, etc. I have seen people making fairly thorough guides but that's about it, maybe that's ll you need, but somehow I don't think so for the nature of the questions on modding.

This is what the wiki is for. In cases where the wiki is unclear, you can and are expected to ask questions so that it can be improved. Almost every bit of documentation regarding proper table formatting etc can be found there.

[technopredator]

@headdie: Oh I see why this looks disorganized, because is not unified and apparently there are not spare people to do so, well maybe eventually HLP will have. I would do it if I knew how to, repositories and hosting websites are not my thing, at least not for a long while. Forced no, I never said anything about that, I know all this is voluntary so forced would be a monumental mistake, but yes a universal repository sounds about right but ia not what I wanted, not so big, at least not at start, only local PC resources. I know the mods are suppose to be all open since this is a place to share but what worries me is that if there are resources spread around that don't get uploaded to a repository maybe people would do the job 2, 3 or more times when is already done or a problem solved somewhere.

@CaptJosh: smartass? what is your problem? why don't you calm down and use your brain before opening your big mouth? I already know all you have posted.

@mjn.mixael: well, that's and interesting elaboration on my idea, but I never said it should be like that, you just extrapolated my idea. Why people don't actually understand the scope when is clearly indicated? The tool I proposed was to be local, web based maybe later, not version nor debug, just find the file references that are wrong say which mod they belong to and which mods have them, you would have a directory with downloaded mods, VPs, etc and the tool would look in normal, .zip, .7z files searching for those files. Debug and version update could be on later versions to make the tool even more complete

[mjn.mixael]

You don't understand... in order to know which references are wrong, you need to debug the modpack. Now whether the tool does that or is capable of parsing the debug log could go either way.

You keep saying you would do it if you knew how... but those of us that know how are telling you that this not an easy idea and it likely requires much more than you think.

[headdie]

Your condescending and pedant tone only make you look unwise for a guy that I assume is smart given the kind of work you do and the previous answers you gave me, but as you said I could be mistaken by assuming too much.

Welcome to the HLP, no one has really arrived until they get hit with The E scorn.  Give it a few months and it wont bother you so much. Once you get through the thick layer of questions The E finds basic/simple/n00b/not researched properly/ill considered, then The E is ok and I think enjoys questions and problems that require serious though.  We all suffer it on the receiving because usually the results are worth it in the end and enjoy watching it when ppl are on the wrong end of it.

[technopredator]

@E: I accept your apologies and I offer apologies if I provoked for any offense I'd had made to you, no hard feelings, we're all fallible.

I remember Diaspora & Wing Commander Saga mods that has their websites the other here I don't remember since I have read some posts of some threads of some of the many mods and I couldn't get a fix on which ones have mod-coding, too many post read, I'm lost.

Yeah, this tool should be online but with a local cache to avoid re-downloading, easy upgradeable to add new types of references when needed.

The wiki, I see... yes the cost of the servers and running something that is voluntary must as limiting as frustrating in many ways. I didn't know about TBP, too bad, is a big mod, it has a lot to offer.

@mjn.mixael: I see... well I'm sure it must be more complicated than my idea, most if not all implementations are, too bad, I was hopping it wasn't and even that would be a spare coder to do it, well that one crushed then... (mayday, mayday, maydaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!)

@headdie: Is OK, this is bound to happen as part of interpersonal relations, is just 1 type of friction totally random that could occur, a n00b making a proposal that seems OK but he won't implement & the ones that can, can't spare it, answering forums posts when he could be developing, etc. As a PC tech I know about a lot of extra unrewarded work; but we managed well I think and is all behind now, that's the important thing, work problems out.

[jr2]

As far as server space to download files, http://gameupdates.org would be handy (server-seeded torrents), but, with nothing else in place... well, at least it could serve as a backup / alternate repository to take the load off your FTP servers.