Author Topic: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)  (Read 10415 times)

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Offline jr2

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
As far as voice goes, isn't there usually a button on the headset to switch between voice command and interplayer communication?  If not, there should be.  :nod:

 

Offline KyadCK

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
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Now for a counter: You can remove five of the targeting and reduce it to Reticule, Subsystem, and Turret.

The inability to cycle targets in a game such as freespace hurts. Quite badly since at longer ranges you can't always see that tiny fighter you're trying to pick off with a treb. Or perhaps target the guy right behind behind you trying to feed you tempests. Or those pesky escape pods.

In a game where there are many ships in the area, cycling through all ships would take forever, hence hostile vs friendly.

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Anyone who bought Bioshock, Fallout, Deadspace, or anything Rockstar. They make excellent singleplayer experiences worth playing.

It was a referance to call of duty, and games like it. the ones the "masses" buy. Battuta took that and even spelled it out in plain english for everyone. Fact is, online multiplayer is a huge deal no matter how badly they screw the singleplayer campaign in the process.

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Was this you when you first picked up Descent: Freespace? Everyone has that moment where you had to look at the keyboard to make sure you were about to hit that right key. Eventually, it becomes second nature and you didn't even have to think about it. In this case, it's the same thing, once you learn the lay of the land, it becomes second nature and no longer an issue.

You don't understand what I mean. Yes, in order to learn the keys most people end up looking down for a while, then it becomes natural.

What I am refering to is the process of using any directional/thumb key:
1) Take thumb off left or right stick
2) Press button
3) put thumb back on right or left stick

Once you get good with the keyboard, you can use your thumb and little finger to hit keys around your control area (i.e. using space for jump, shift for crouch with WSAD) without losing control. In the case of a gamepad your thumb must leave the stick leaving you flying straight or not moving for that time. If you played multi, you'd understand just how long that tenth of a second really is.

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"Lack of camera controls"
Because this is just so important. Crossed off
"No advanced targeting"
Advanced targeting? If I haven't heard of it, it isn't required
"Lack of hotkeys"
Once again, you really don't need hotkeys

Fair enough.
You play freespace and havent heard of advanced targeting? Really?
Again, fair enough.

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Make the dpad your shield management then, while shift does Primary, Secondary, Firerate and something else.

Trying to control shields this way wouldn't work out very well because during the time you try to manipulate your shields you get pounded by AI (because you took your thumb off the pitch/yaw stick) which requires you to manage shields more, and on it goes. A quick equalize shield key is the best you're going to get.

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We're talking singleplayer. Bob from Arizone (unless he's dressed in a green outfit creeping outside your window) won't hear you.

So there will be no multiplayer or AI control will just be disabled in multiplayer? Sounds a bit unlikely.

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On the subject of the keyboard attachment, there you have it. <picture>

Because removing your thumb from the stick to press a button isn't enough, a keyboard is added to keep your hands even farther from the sticks controlling your fighter for a longer time.

As far as voice goes, isn't there usually a button on the headset to switch between voice command and interplayer communication?  If not, there should be.  :nod:

It would have to be on a trigger or L3/R3, on the headseat is asking you to remove your hand from the gamepad entirely.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
"Quite badly since at longer ranges you can't always see that tiny fighter you're trying to pick off with a treb."

Never had this issue

"Or perhaps target the guy right behind behind you trying to feed you tempests"

There's a hollow arrow pointing to who's shooting at you. Turn around, and shoot back. Voila

"Or those pesky escape pods."

Again, never had an issue finding them without the friendly targeting option.

"cycling through all ships would take forever,"

Then don't cycle through all the ships. Pick the important one and go with it. Better yet, point at the one you want, and while you're flying towards him, you'll eventually target him with reticule targeting.

"Fact is, online multiplayer is a huge deal no matter how badly they screw the singleplayer campaign in the process."

Thanks tips. As for reference to Call of Duty, well, they'll be too busy playing Call of Duty to bother with this game.

"Once you get good with the keyboard, you can use your thumb and little finger to hit keys around your control area"

I use a joystick so no, this doesn't apply to me. Do I have an issue with switching between the two? No

"You play freespace and havent heard of advanced targeting? Really?"

I'm the one who flies around using reticule targeting for everything. So yes, really. Curious though, as I may have heard of it but misunderstood what it is you mean. What is it?

"Trying to control shields this way wouldn't work out very well because during the time you try to manipulate your shields you get pounded by AI (because you took your thumb off the pitch/yaw stick) which requires you to manage shields more, and on it goes"

I actually use my index finger for Dpad. I also use my index for the right four buttons. My thumbs rarely move from the analog sticks when I'm busy trying to stay alive. So, this particular aspect doesn't apply to me personally, but it is a valid point for those who don't use their index fingers.

"So there will be no multiplayer or AI control will just be disabled in multiplayer? Sounds a bit unlikely."

What multiplayer games have AI control on consoles? I know RSV2 (Rainbow Six Vegas 2) provides you with two AI partners along with a friend in co-op singleplayer, but that's about it.

"It would have to be on a trigger or L3/R3, on the headseat is asking you to remove your hand from the gamepad entirely."

Since L3 isn't currently being used, yes it would work.
"No"

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
As far as voice goes, isn't there usually a button on the headset to switch between voice command and interplayer communication?  If not, there should be.  :nod:

It would have to be on a trigger or L3/R3, on the headseat is asking you to remove your hand from the gamepad entirely.

Good point; L3/R3 it is... unless you can have the voice recognition system have a comm switch "Comm <Alpha 2 OR Alpha Wing OR Allies OR Everyone> voice message here"

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
To whoever say voice is faster than ex. c-1-1-5, you either use a vocaloid to speak for you, or have the world's most advanced voice recognition software to be able to understand you at that speed.

Are there even any games that dare to use voice commands frequently? Or voice commands at all?
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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
Deathfun; please stop calling it a reticule, there is no u, reticule = a womans handbag.

If your entire argument is "I'm doing okay on (whatever difficulty it is I play on, very easy? lol) without the extra stuff", then please, shut up, now.
Save me the trouble, because it's not an argument you're going to win just because you're ignorant and retarded.
Thanks.

The keypad on the joypad deals only help slightly insofar as the digits need to move less distance, and - in all honesty, having a keyboard which you can use your little fingers on under your joypad will lead to faster results anyway, believe it or not.

If you think that big ships are the only things that go on escort lists, again, more fool you; You can add your own to the mission escort list, in TvT this often becomes your primary target amongst your opponents, it can also be used to keep track of your allied fighters in missions where you need to track them very closely individually, if escort lists were only for the GTVA Colossus, no one would give a crap.

While reticle targeting is useful, and perhaps one of my most used targeting keys, for advanced AI control and management it is not by any means sufficient, if you do not need to control the AI I would suggest you're not playing on a challenging enough mission or difficulty.

Camera controls add situational awareness in extremely intense missions, which I am simply assuming you either haven't played, or play about 20 times before you say you've played it once, or some other mentally impaired fashion, personally, I prefer to try to beat it (perfectly if possible) first time, and then definitely beat it perfectly second time.

And no, there is no way to maintain full flight control while using a xbox pad, on a ps3 pad you can sort of do it if you hold the pad really fecking weirdly (ring finger for R/L2, middle for R/L1, index fingers free for on top of the pad).

If I were to do it, I would have an auto-pausing comms menu that used the analogue sticks like an option wheel (see ME2 or Crysis), for single player, for multiplayer, again, you're fecked.

If you're going to detract that much from the game to get it on the console, it wouldn't be freespace any more.

And, although I don't tend to use them single player especially when certain fredders set them to F12 battuta! :P), if you don't know how valuable hotkeys are, you're still a quantifiable noob.
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Offline KyadCK

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
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There's a hollow arrow pointing to who's shooting at you. Turn around, and shoot back. Voila
Oh pleeeease join us in multi, see just how far that logic gets you.  :D

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Again, never had an issue finding them without the friendly targeting option.
Hostile escape pods, like from Vasudan Assault or The Die Is Cast. The ones where you have about 30 seconds to kill all 6 of them going in different directions before they all jump out.

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Thanks tips. As for reference to Call of Duty, well, they'll be too busy playing Call of Duty to bother with this game.
Very good point, we should probably hope it stays that way too unless you think they can be converted.

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In the case of a gamepad your thumb must leave the stick leaving you flying straight or not moving for that time.
I actually use my index finger for Dpad. I also use my index for the right four buttons. My thumbs rarely move from the analog sticks when I'm busy trying to stay alive. So, this particular aspect doesn't apply to me personally, but it is a valid point for those who don't use their index fingers.

Ok, so you understand my reasoning when it comes to using the Dpad for shields. Apply that the right hand as well, and for any commands put on those keys. That's my argument about the gamepad I've tried to explain however many ways.

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I'm the one who flies around using reticule targeting for everything. So yes, really. Curious though, as I may have heard of it but misunderstood what it is you mean. What is it?
Target targets target, target attacker, target targets attacker, target previous closest hostile/friendly/escort/subsystem/turret/etc (reverse cycle) and so on. Basically any of the targeting commands I didn't list in the 8 I gave the gamepad, because they aren't very common keys.

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What multiplayer games have AI control on consoles?
Two that come to mind the quickest would be SW Battlefront 1/2.

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Offline deathfun

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
"Deathfun; please stop calling it a reticule, there is no u, reticule = a womans handbag."
Reticle*

"in all honesty, having a keyboard which you can use your little fingers on under your joypad will lead to faster results anyway, believe it or not."
I know this, but we aren't discussing which is better, we're discussing how it can be made practical for consoles. Instead of saying "you can't" try using your brain and figure out a way so it actually does work. It's possible, but with people like you constantly saying "keyboard rules consoles drool" and not making any effort to come up with a solution, it isn't particularly helpful. At least Kyad makes an effort You just bash me for saying otherwise to your opinion

"in TvT this often becomes your primary target amongst your opponents"
Multiplayer seems to be the only basis for your argument. Your argument being "the way it is now on PC won't work for consoles simply because of multiplayer". Fact: This isn't PC multiplayer. Rules change, and so does gameplay/tactics. Don't like it? Don't play it on console.

"Camera controls add situational awareness in extremely intense missions"
So does looking at the little thing that displays all these fancy dots in different colours

"And no, there is no way to maintain full flight control while using a xbox pad, on a ps3 pad you can sort of do it if you hold the pad really fecking weirdly (ring finger for R/L2, middle for R/L1, index fingers free for on top of the pad)."
Let's see, in moments they are required, move index and switch it with middle finger (which does both L1 and L2, rarely does one need both at the same time in games) and then move it back. So yes, there is a way. You just don't have the ability to comprehend how to do it as it would seem

"If you're going to detract that much from the game to get it on the console, it wouldn't be freespace any more."
Because making something work for the current times, and something that you won't have to deal with because you'll be playing it on PC anyways, will make a game you'll never play, not the game you know it to be? That's a terrible argument. Most people who'll be playing it on console WON'T know what Freespace is since just how many of you will purchase it for console?

"If you think that big ships are the only things that go on escort lists, again, more fool you"
I don't think that big ships are the only things that go on escort lists. I hope that clears that up for you

"because it's not an argument you're going to win just because you're ignorant and retarded."
I see it as an idea dump in a process to make it work for consoles, not so much an argument. Notice how the scheme slowly gets better and better as we discuss this more?

"Oh pleeeease join us in multi, see just how far that logic gets you."
Let's see. Someone who never played multiplayer vs someone who played multiplayer for a significant amount of time. Hmm
It'd be better to get someone who has played multiplayer adopt that strategy in order for it to be a basis for anything

"Hostile escape pods, like from Vasudan Assault or The Die Is Cast"
Multiplayer mission I have never played

"That's my argument about the gamepad I've tried to explain however many ways."
People can adapt to different control layouts, just takes time. That's my argument

"Basically any of the targeting commands I didn't list in the 8 I gave the gamepad, because they aren't very common keys."
Ah. Well these I am unaware of. They don't really seem all that important either as it just simplifies what you could see with your own eyes. Who's the guy attacking? Well, follow the lasers

"Two that come to mind the quickest would be SW Battlefront 1/2."
Another that comes to mind is Mercs 2 (albeit, the command is "embark this vehicle you useless prick"). I don't remember too many commands for Star Wars Battlefront. Is there a difference between console and PC? Either that or I just never bothered...
Ah, another game that comes to mind is Perfect Dark. You could command AI teammates by a popup menu

"To whoever say voice is faster than ex. c-1-1-5, you either use a vocaloid to speak for you, or have the world's most advanced voice recognition software to be able to understand you at that speed."
Endwar did pretty good doing what I wanted it to. Okay, it isn't really faster, but it doesn't take away from your focus as much

Sidenote: I know I'm not doing the quote /quote thing. Don't feel like it

« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 09:47:30 pm by deathfun »
"No"

 

Offline KyadCK

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
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Let's see. Someone who never played multiplayer vs someone who played multiplayer for a significant amount of time. Hmm
It'd be better to get someone who has played multiplayer adopt that strategy in order for it to be a basis for anything

The only reason a person who plays multi all the time should be any better is becuase they know that something like "turn around and shoot it" doesn't work against another human. The controls are exactly the same, the only difference is skill.

There is a reason you would need to convince someone who plays multi to try it your way: they learned not to do it. and that is all the example I need.

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Multiplayer mission I have never played

And I havent played Sync yet. That doesn't make any key command I haven't used or found a use for yet worthless. Just means the fredders of the missions I have played didn't include a need for it.

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People can adapt to different control layouts, just takes time. That's my argument

Control layout is not the same as how you hold the controller. Like the keyboards WSAD, gamepads have their 'default' controls too. (X is jump, R1 is fire, etc) The idea is to make it simple for the user, not force them to hold the controller in an awkward way just to be able to play the game well. (see: using index finger for Dpad)

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So does looking at the little thing that displays all these fancy dots in different colours

Try to understand where QD is coming from here, since your ideas of extremely intense are obviously so very different. The most intense mission I can think of would be Post Meridian TvT as a fighter pilot. Why? Because you need to keep an eye on your cap ships, their cap ships (some of which are piloted by people on both sides), your fighters to see how your wing is doing, their fighters to see how much crap your in, find out which of those dozen or more enemy fighters are humans and not AI, tell your AI what to do, tell the AI that just jumped in what to do, and know which of their cap ship is hitting you when you get too close so you don't turn the wrong way right into a flak cannon.

In this situation, the radar is of no real use. There is so much on the screen you couldn't begin to tell what dots are what anyway. And if this sounds like a regular mission to you, I again ask you to join us in multi.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
Good enough

I concede.
And will more than likely not join you on multi anyhow. If what you say is correct, I won't last three seconds, and will probably cease to play
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Offline KyadCK

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
If what you say is correct, I won't last three seconds, and will probably cease to play
Which is why people normaly start with co-op and someone who knows the mission on their side, and we balance the teams for any TvT (2 good players vs 1 good and 3 new, stuff like that). We do ease new people in gently before tossing them in against QD alone. Multi missions NEED to be harder: you have 4 or more pilots, plus however many respawns.


I constantly bring up multi in the talk about the controller layout because that's where the hardest missions and most attention demanding situations I know are, and to design a layout around something easy when it can get much harder very easily seems a bit off.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
I suppose I should rephrase
I will more than likely not change my methods regardless of whether or not they apply in multiplayer scenarios

"No"

 
Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
You just learn to be better, and expand your tool set and repertoire multi lets you get away with being a bit worse at coping with massive combat as well due to respawns, and dead weight can easily be carried by exceptional pilots.
You quickly improve, but realistically with a joypad you're always going to be average at best.
Joystick's a different matter entirely.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Automated game design (used to be Another FreeSpace 3 Thread)
I'm using a HOTAS with 40 buttons, and use most of them in combat (except for shield management, which is on a thumb rest on the stick and thus not so easily reached). While I'm not playing multi, I do play most campaigns I test on Insane, which is rather challenging (especially given the amount of AIs usually thrown at you).