Author Topic: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....  (Read 32834 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Religion is not entirely composed of handwaving. Otherwise it would just produce fools and not thinkers like Ghandi, St. Augustine or hell, JRR Tolkien. Like it or not, valuable insight can result from an individual's religious beliefs.

But does it stem from religious thinking or something else? The plot thickens.... I really doubt that the holy truth of the trinity has contributed anything to our well being, for example.

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And it's no less cuckoo to pretend that reality is much less complicated than it actually is. You can't handwave everything into a set of simple logical truths. To claim otherwise would be *puts on Spock ears* illogical, my dear.

Exactly. So why all the religious bull****? Reality is *HARD*, and it requires *WORK*, HARD WORK. Not sitting on our comfortable chairs spewing metaphyisical unfalsifiable shenanigans that make you "feel" this or that. We discovered this basic insight about reality some centuries ago, but apparently it still hasn't penetrated every thinking brain.

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But good luck becoming the new Kazan.  :p

I tried to look for that one, but I still don't know who you are referring to...

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Kazan was a forum member known for not getting a joke and for denying the undenyable truth that Clangers did live on the moon.
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Oh right... just another mindless insult thrown up. But the troll is me... I see how this works.

 

Offline The E

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
I go by this:

1. Impale all the things.



« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 05:25:54 am by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
I go by this:

1. Impale all the things.

I thought the idea was to nuke all the things.... it's so confusing...

well after we nuke things the state of technolgy will be in a rather horrid state, and we would have depleted our nuclear arsenal as well. this is where we implement good old vlad style terror and impale anyone among the survivors who doesn't play ball. i mean if they cant follow simple rules (like for, example, no breathing) then they deserve to die and i can carve a pretty mean looking steak.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Religion is not entirely composed of handwaving. Otherwise it would just produce fools and not thinkers like Ghandi, St. Augustine or hell, JRR Tolkien. Like it or not, valuable insight can result from an individual's religious beliefs.

But does it stem from religious thinking or something else? The plot thickens.... I really doubt that the holy truth of the trinity has contributed anything to our well being, for example.

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And it's no less cuckoo to pretend that reality is much less complicated than it actually is. You can't handwave everything into a set of simple logical truths. To claim otherwise would be *puts on Spock ears* illogical, my dear.

Exactly. So why all the religious bull****? Reality is *HARD*, and it requires *WORK*, HARD WORK. Not sitting on our comfortable chairs spewing metaphyisical unfalsifiable shenanigans that make you "feel" this or that. We discovered this basic insight about reality some centuries ago, but apparently it still hasn't penetrated every thinking brain.

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But good luck becoming the new Kazan.  :p

I tried to look for that one, but I still don't know who you are referring to...
Christianity it not about the Trinity. Ignore the dogma. That's a distraction from its real ideas.

And the possibility that empirical analysis might have inherit limits as a font of truth is continuing to sail right over your head. If something can't be reduced to a purely empirical phenomenon, it must not exist. This is the dogma of people who think that science can explain all: it can only make judgements on sensory phenomenon, so it is just assumed that only sensory (and thus physical) phenomenon are real, and everything else is bull****. Acknowledge that anything could lie outside that realm and your position falls apart.

It's kinda funny because I held the same beliefs you did when I was 14. Then I read Descartes and realized that studying the behavior of quarks doesn't actually reveal very much of the fundamental nature of existence. I didn't have as much of a desire to be a scientist after that day. And I gradually became a lot more accepting of religion. A tolerant atheist with leanings toward the Dao instead of an intolerant, religion-is-always-just-plain-wrong atheist.

Also,  :lol: that you didn't know who Kazan was. Kids these days. I was more referring to his position as the resident anti-religion pundit of the forum.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 01:30:56 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Christianity it not about the Trinity. Ignore the dogma. It is a distraction from its real ideas.

No true Scotsman.

If you drop the established properties of <insert religion here> and claim that it's real ideals are <insert list here>, who's to say that isn't just your idea about what the "real ideas" are?

Certainly, I could sort of agree that christianity should be all about love and tolerance and generally being nice to other people, but the salvation dogma and the stuff about the immortal soul are quite essential to Christianity, especially regarding the concept of how to make sure your soul is saved from eternal nothingness (not sure if want).

Also, those "true ideals" are nothing exclusive to Christianity. The Golden Rule, as an example, is just one formulation of Kant's categorical imperative, and thus there's nothing specific to Christianity in it, and nothing to say that it is a divine moral rule. It just happens to make sense.


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And the possibility that empirical analysis might have inherit limits as a font of truth is continuing to sail right over your head. If something can't be reduced to a purely empirical phenomenon, it must not exist. This is the dogma of people who think that science can explain all: it can only make judgements on sensory phenomenon, so it is just assumed that only sensory (and thus physical) phenomenon are real, and everything else is bull****. Acknowledge that anything could lie outside that realm and your position falls apart.

False dichotomy.

Thinking that all non-observable things are "bull****" is something no scientist should ever do. Our observational capabilities increase all the time, making us able to measure things that we previously could not do.

In the time of Greek natural philosophers, the hypothesis of "atoms" (as made by Democritus) as small particles that everything is made of was just as much unobservable than other theories about the world (such as the four elements, or the Greek pantheon of gods causing things to happen). Today, we can measure and observe individual atoms and see how they behave. We can observe individual particles that make up the atoms, and we can collide them with large energies to see what happens when they decompose at high energy conditions.

This, among other things, is how we're trying to figure out how gravity (as an example) works.


If your dichotomy were true, no one would be seriously trying to ever observe anything new or to improve our means of observing things. If we can't observe something, we make stuff that can observe it, but until we have observed it, we consider a hypothesis just that - a hypothesis. A supporting observation is usually required to make it a theory. Notably enough, a lot of things especially in particle physics have been predicted long before they could be observed, and they were not considered "bull****" despite the inability to observe them at the time.

So, please don't claim that science-oriented people think that if something can't be observed, it's automatically bull****.

It's bull**** if it can't be objectively observed by its definition; these types of claims typically also tend to be non-falsifiable.


As an interesting aside, religious experiences have been researched widely through means of neurology, and we have a fairly good idea about what's causing them. We can even reproduce religious experiences by stimulating certain sections of the brain with magnetic fields or with oxygen deprivation in some individuals. The human brain has certain things in its layout that are the same in every member of H. sapiens sapiensis, thus it shouldn't be a surprise that people's experiences in similar conditions are, in fact, similar.

Thus the claims of extrasensory perception about supernatural are, in fact, rather suspect and most likely fully internal phenomenon produced as a natural function of human brain. Some experience it more often and more stronger than others, which is suspected to be related to genetics to some extent and possibly also a function of upbringing when the brain develops. The upbringing definitely affects the perception of the religious experience - people tend to experience what their cultural ideas make them expect.

All in all it seems pretty obvious to me that if religious behaviour suddenly emerged right now, it would probably be diagnosed as a small neurological disorder, and religions would either be deemed mass delusion caused by similar neurological disorder, or exploitation of the people who happen to have this affliction. Instead of being considered neutral or beneficial - or, in the case of certain areas of the world, the norm - it might be considered harmful or at the very least something that a person should be aware of.


On the other hand, same could be said about falling in love. Makes the brain go quite nuts.

Now that I think of it, it's pretty obvious that there has been strong selective pressure to preserve the "falling-in-love" behaviour in the human nervous system, just as there has probably been selective pressure to maintain the "religious-experience" behaviour; the former purely through biological basis (people in love tend to form babbys) and the latter through sociological behaviour, I would say. The religious people have probably selectively chosen mates that also tended to be religious.

It might actually be extremely interesting to do some genetic research on what causes religiousness, how long ago the behaviour emerged, when it became more common, and also why different areas have vast differences in reported religiousness (for example, comparing Europe with the US population). If there were no meaningful differences in the genetics regarding religious behavior, then it might be that cultural exposure has a big effect on behaviour - or people are just faking being religious because it's the social norm...
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
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It's bull**** if it can't be objectively observed by its definition; these types of claims typically also tend to be non-falsifiable.
Sailed right over your head too. Does the condition of falsifiability require empirical falsifiability? To those who believe only scientific (empirical) truth is real truth, yes. To those who do not, no. Hell no. I'm not some fringe nut by claiming this. I'm saying nothing that hasn't been said before by Kant or Descartes. Empirical truth is not the only kind of truth.

I'm going to avoid justifying religion for the moment, since I can't even get you to acknowledge the possibility of non-empirical knowledge. Your analysis of my position was incorrect: I really am attacking the idea of empirical falsifiability as the final authority of truth. Especially the empirical part of it.

Try to construct a theory of reality without using a single a priori statement (which is what pure empiricism requires you to do). I dare you.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 02:41:40 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
In the future, for the sake of this argument, I'll just strip down religion to it's most common traits; the idea of something lying outside the purely material world. the idea of a god, personal or impersonal, and the idea of a soul that is not wholly dependent on current physical reality. You can leave out morality right now. But focus on my previous post for now please.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
In the future, for the sake of this argument, I'll just strip down religion to it's most common traits; the idea of something lying outside the purely material world. the idea of a god, personal or impersonal, and the idea of a soul that is not wholly dependent on current physical reality. You can leave out morality right now. But focus on my previous post for now please.

But how is it not part of physical reality if it's real?
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Is a thought part of physical reality? By what sense do you become aware of it? Touch, taste, smell, sound, sight? Which one? What is its physical source? None. Why then, it must not be real! The very thought that it isn't real must not be real!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 03:35:28 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline watsisname

Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Amusing that you assume that thought, which is an internal biological process, must be detected by external receptors as with touch and smell, to be real...
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
This, again, kind of falls to semantics. If you define reality as "everything that exists" and you say that souls and God and heaven exist, then they must be part of reality.
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
The point is redsniper that pure empiricism requires you to disregard non-sensory things. Just because.

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Amusing that you assume that thought, which is an internal biological process, must be detected by external receptors as with touch and smell, to be real...
An internal biological process? You are describing a sensory observation (using catscans of brain activity if you want a direct observation) that correlates with the thought, but you have not described the thought itself. You can describe how the data associated with color is transmitted from the eyes to the brain, but that doesn't mean you've described what the color red actually is.

And it makes just as much sense to describe the catscan of the "internal biological processes" as images in the mind.

I am amused that you assume I am full of naivity in this matter.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 04:25:38 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Christianity it not about the Trinity. Ignore the dogma. That's a distraction from its real ideas.

I agree with the "no-true-scotsman" criticism that Herra aludes here. If you are saying that the christian dogma is not important for Christianity then you are talking rubbish. I understand that you may not see it important for yourself, but that's an entirely different matter. You just denounce yourself as a non christian. And that's fine as well. Just as long as we keep the conversation honest. You are not allowed to say that the Trinity is not important for Christianity.

Because hell yeah, it is important.

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And the possibility that empirical analysis might have inherit limits as a font of truth is continuing to sail right over your head.

Again, I appeal to your sense of honesty here. You won't find one sentence of mine ever proclaiming the inevitability of the "completion" of the building of "all truth". I'm not even into that sort of thing. So before you go ahead and proclaim that something sailed "over my head", it would be wiser to actually confirm that I ever meant such a thing.

No, sure, truth is limited. It always is. If you say that empirical analsys has "inherent" limits, I have some things I'd like to reply. First, who is going to define the "inherency" of these limits? You see, this "inherent" thing that you are referring to is a reference to the Kantian "thing-in-itself", which I don't really subscribe to at all (also been "refuted" as a legitimate way to think about stuff for two centuries now...). What I mean is, I don't subscribe to this thought that there is an "inherent" limit to empirical analysis. What there is, and I'll fully agree with that, are real present limitations wrt what science can tell us about trillions of things. And in such voids, we try to fill them with some sketched explanations, tentative hypothesis, metaphors, poetry, intuition, etc.,etc. And that's fine. I never disagreed with that. It's what we got, it's what we use.

But when we start telling ourselves that these intuitions we have are somehow in a "different plane of knowledge", a "different truth" from hard sciences, and we start saying that these metaphors we tell ourselves are above scientific scrutiny because they belong to such different landscape, we are just fooling ourselves into delusion.

There is only one world. Our world.


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If something can't be reduced to a purely empirical phenomenon, it must not exist.

Name me one such example. Tell me something that "exists" but has no empirical expression whatsoever. I dare you.

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This is the dogma of people who think that science can explain all: it can only make judgements on sensory phenomenon, so it is just assumed that only sensory (and thus physical) phenomenon are real, and everything else is bull****. Acknowledge that anything could lie outside that realm and your position falls apart.

Ok I byte, tell me what you are thinking as an example here. And then I will gladly teach you why such an example stems completely from empirical observation.

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It's kinda funny because I held the same beliefs you did when I was 14. Then I read Descartes and realized that studying the behavior of quarks doesn't actually reveal very much of the fundamental nature of existence. I didn't have as much of a desire to be a scientist after that day. And I gradually became a lot more accepting of religion. A tolerant atheist with leanings toward the Dao instead of an intolerant, religion-is-always-just-plain-wrong atheist.

Spare me the condescending tone. I could reply that I also enjoyed the deistic / pantheistic "feeling" of oneness and magicalness and wonder of the cosmos as the thing in itself, etc.,etc., when I was 15 or 16. And then I ****ing grew up. But that would sound patronizing wouldn't it?

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Also,  :lol: that you didn't know who Kazan was. Kids these days.

I don't understand the jerkiness. Why do you behave like that? Did I do something wrong to you? Why should I know who Kazan was? And why do you take me as a "kid", apart from the obvious insulting implicit notion that "only a kid would have the thoughts that you have"?

I'm a father of three, actually, although the truth of my statements wouldn't change if I was 4 years old.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Is a thought part of physical reality? By what sense do you become aware of it? Touch, taste, smell, sound, sight? Which one? What is its physical source? None.

Hint, the source of thought starts with a B and ends in RAIN. And no, it is not completely composed of water.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
I was using Christianity as an example of a religion, not its particular qualities.

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Name me one such example. Tell me something that "exists" but has no empirical expression whatsoever. I dare you.
Read my response to whatisname above.

And as for using the word kid, I knew your age when I posted that. That was a joke. And I'll drop any comments that remotely resemble condescending from now on.

But I am presenting a rational argument that empiricism does not produce knowledge of all things that exist. Maybe the argument is wrong. But I am currently presenting it without any appeals to faith or irrationality. I am simply questioning your position on logical grounds. Or to connect me position with pantheism. You are engaging in ad hominem attacks to far greater extent than I am. You have no right to call me delusional for that. Be careful before you accuse others of being a jerk.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 04:47:58 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Is a thought part of physical reality? By what sense do you become aware of it? Touch, taste, smell, sound, sight? Which one? What is its physical source? None.

Hint, the source of thought starts with a B and ends in RAIN. And no, it is not completely composed of water.
The thought itself, not the percieved material object whose activity correlates with it.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Try to construct a theory of reality without using a single a priori statement (which is what pure empiricism requires you to do). I dare you.

Ah, so you go there. We have a smarty here, gentlemen, this is not your usual theist here, but a Bayesian one.

Thing is, you assume in your hypothesis (the hypothesis being that "pure empiricism" requires at least one a priori statement out of empirical reality to build a true theory of reality), that the objective of this theory of reality is to be absolutely true.

The trick is, I refuse the meaningfulness of this truth at all.

It simply lacks any meaning to me. Thus I do not need this perfect logical system that you are alluding to. In my eyes, the empirical reality that we construct with our theories are fuzzy, semantically not rigorous, always "Wrong" in the "pure sense", always polluted.

It is, for any logical perfectionist theologian, an abomination of chaos, disorder, "untruth". And yet, it moves. It works! Better than that, it works better than any perfect system ever thought out by any armchair philosopher (impale Descartes now!).

Why? Because it is a self-correcting system of checking its hypothesis with the only feedback we decided was sufficiently trustworthy: empirical data, that is, as unsubjective as possible. In this sense, it's like evolution: it does not need a working "a priori" anything at its base, it only needs time and work. Eventually, it will become better and better.

It's like someone building the very ship he is sailing in the sea.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Is a thought part of physical reality? By what sense do you become aware of it? Touch, taste, smell, sound, sight? Which one? What is its physical source? None.

Hint, the source of thought starts with a B and ends in RAIN. And no, it is not completely composed of water.
The thought itself, not the percieved material object whose activity correlates with it.

Ah yes, the "though itself". Like the "rock itself" and all the numenous things we never "really" get to see.

You are assuming the existence of a different plane of existence "the Real itself", to conclude the existence of a different plane of existence.

I am not impressed. Had you exemplified with "God" or "Ghosts" or "Demons", etc., it would be exactly the same.