Author Topic: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff  (Read 3475 times)

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Offline The E

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
Oh no, they do have their use (Hell, Germany has a Submarine class powered by fuel cells), just not in handheld electronics.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
dont fuel cells also need to be of a certain size in order to achieve optimum temperatures?
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
Oh no, they do have their use (Hell, Germany has a Submarine class powered by fuel cells), just not in handheld electronics.

still i think the technology is still way too expensive for anything but military, space or industrial applications. you also have to realize that we dont really have all that much hydrogen infrastructure right now which would need to be in place for large scale application. even if we have hydrogen infrastructure i get the feeling it will only ever be used in situations where you need a lot of power, like electric cars, home power, civil aviation (e-planes) and marine (e-boats) use as well. even then its gonna be more expensive to other alternatives available. im sure battery production will ramp up as fuel grows in price.
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Offline The E

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
I agree. Putting a fuel cell into something that moves around a lot is a recipe for disaster (unless you have overriding considerations like in military hardware), they're much better used in a stationary setting, where you can have a large supply of hydrogen nearby in a stable and controlled container. You can then use the energy produced to charge your Li-io batteries.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
Oh no, they do have their use (Hell, Germany has a Submarine class powered by fuel cells), just not in handheld electronics.

still i think the technology is still way too expensive for anything but military, space or industrial applications. you also have to realize that we dont really have all that much hydrogen infrastructure right now which would need to be in place for large scale application. even if we have hydrogen infrastructure i get the feeling it will only ever be used in situations where you need a lot of power, like electric cars, home power, civil aviation (e-planes) and marine (e-boats) use as well. even then its gonna be more expensive to other alternatives available. im sure battery production will ramp up as fuel grows in price.

refuelling a fuel cell would probably be faster than recharging a battery, also where O2 is in abundance you only need to carry the hydrogen and the water is safe to just dump which means that for aircraft your fuel efficiency actually goes up the further you travel and of course a discharged battery is dead weight
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Offline jr2

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
i wouldn't want to use a fuel cell for that application no matter how cheap or efficient it is. fuel cells require fuel, and i dont want to have to be constantly putting fuel into my electronics. dont underestimate the power of lithium batteries. some of the high discharge cells ive used on my rc aircraft exploits have been ****ing scary to work with. especially when you had to solder new connectors or leads to the battery. they are very fond of arcing. you also have ultra-capacitors that can do really scary things. a fuel cell is the wrong tech for the job. i can see using it in a car or in off-grid home power, but banks of batteries can handle that job, and probably at less expense. for small scale applications batteries will reign supreme. nobody wants to put hydrogen into all their technology to make it work when they can just plug it in.

After watching this vid, I want to see 100 of those hooked up in series, fully charged, and then see if maybe a car could be vaporized.  :lol: :drevil:

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
Oh no, they do have their use (Hell, Germany has a Submarine class powered by fuel cells), just not in handheld electronics.

still i think the technology is still way too expensive for anything but military, space or industrial applications. you also have to realize that we dont really have all that much hydrogen infrastructure right now which would need to be in place for large scale application. even if we have hydrogen infrastructure i get the feeling it will only ever be used in situations where you need a lot of power, like electric cars, home power, civil aviation (e-planes) and marine (e-boats) use as well. even then its gonna be more expensive to other alternatives available. im sure battery production will ramp up as fuel grows in price.

refuelling a fuel cell would probably be faster than recharging a battery, also where O2 is in abundance you only need to carry the hydrogen and the water is safe to just dump which means that for aircraft your fuel efficiency actually goes up the further you travel and of course a discharged battery is dead weight

aye, but your fuel cell is likely to be the size and weight of a lithium battery bank, and you still need to carry fuel. speed of refueling is of course a factor of fuel cells, so consider the hypothetical scenario of an electric passenger plane. a fuel cell is likely the optimal choice because of the reduced turnaround time, you dont have to keep your plane grounded for an hour or more to recharge the batts, just have to pump hydrogen. granted you could have removable banks that can be recharged on the ground and swapped out during ground operations. likely more expensive. should point out though that a majority of the power for a commercial aircraft is currently generated by auxiliary power units, and without those you would need an even larger power system to take up the slack. i hope that rather than e-planes commercial aviation goes hypersonic with lh2 instead, and a fuel cell would probably be your apu in that case. hypotheticals aside there still aint much of a market for it yet.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
fair point about the weight and hyper sonic would be nice though I suspect it would go the way of Concord for civilian travel unfortunately
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Offline The E

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
Fuel cells do promise a better alternative to battery-powered cars. As Top Gear put it, the reason why is because a fuel cell car fits our model of car usage (drive until fuel gets low, get to fuel station, fill up, keep some more), whereas battery-powered cars are somewhat unwieldy in that respect. That is, until someone can figure out a way to speed-charge a battery without wrecking the battery in the process.

fair point about the weight and hyper sonic would be nice though I suspect it would go the way of Concord for civilian travel unfortunately

Depends on how large you make them, and how economic their engines are. Concorde's problem, in essence, was that it was too small, it could only cater to a very limited number of passengers while burning an awful lot of fuel; I suspect that if you could get a plane that can carry as many passengers as a 777 at supersonic speeds at a ticket price that is within 150 to 200% of a normal plane, it could very well be economic enough.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
IIRC Concorde was supposed to become a whole fleet of aircraft; however, due to fuel price increasing, demand was low, therefore, prices stayed high, therefore, demand stayed low, so the fleet idea had to be canned.  Concorde would have been a great idea if the price had stayed low and they could have built the fleet that they intended to.

EDIT: To clarify the following article in brief, The plan was to have a supersonic air fleet "for the masses"; but, as prices to operate the planes became too high, and new regulations that ended up increasing the price even further were put into place, the only way to turn a profit was for companies to charge exorbitantly (~$10,000 one-way sometimes!); therefore limiting travel to the wealthy and keeping demand low -- thus, the death of the fleet.  ~20 Condordes were built in total.


Quote from: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0186.shtml
Quote
What are the reasons for the failure of Concorde? What improvements could be made to it?
- question from Harpeet

Your question is unclear as to whether you are asking why the Concorde failed to become a success in the first place or why the airlines decided to retire the plane in 2001. In any case, the reasons are largely similar.
The design of what ultimately became Concorde began in the late 1950s when commercial air service was just beginning to become the dominant form of long-distance travel. During the late 1950s and early 1960s, technology was progressing so rapidly that the public believed high speed aircraft and even commercial space travel would become commonplace in the near future. It was this mindset that made the Concorde possible, and it was shared by other nations as well. Both the Soviet Union and the United States were also developing their own equivalents to Concorde called the Tupolev Tu-144 and the Boeing SST.


Artist concept of the 1967 Boeing SST with variable-geometry wings


Unfortunately, the politics and economy of the world changed substantially between the early 1960s and the mid-1970s when Concorde was finally ready to enter service. One of the challenges that confronted Concorde was the growth of the environmental movement that bitterly fought against the plane. Chief among the complaints of environmentalists was the noise pollution that supersonic aircraft threatened to bring. It was because of this concern that most nations banned supersonic air travel over their territories to eliminate the danger of sonic booms. This legislation forced Concorde to seek out intercontinental routes across oceans. The routes that did travel over land, such as Washington DC to Dallas and London to Bahrain, were forced to remain subsonic and cruise at Mach 0.95. This cruise speed significantly increased fuel consumption and caused the cost per flight to skyrocket, which was one of the primary reaons why both routes were abandoned within a couple of years.

A second problem that plagued Concorde was the rise in oil prices that struck the West so forcefully during the 1970s. Supersonic flight requires powerful engines that consume much more fuel than traditional airliners flying at Mach 0.8. Oil was inexpensive in the early 1960s, so the airlines had little need to worry about fuel costs when the Concorde was being designed. As the airline industry changed in the 1970s and 1980s because of deregulation and increased competition, cutting costs became necessary simply for survival. Airlines just could not afford the cost of fuel needed for supersonic aircraft, so they had no interest in planes like Concorde.

Regardless, British Airways and Air France were able to overcome these challenges as best they could and eventually turned a profit on Concorde flights. They did so by abandoning the idea of supersonic travel for the masses and instead adopting a premium service catering to the elite. Concorde was most often flown by wealthy business executives and celebrities who needed to cross the Atlantic rapidly or who were simply attracted by the special treatment offered on Concorde flights. These upper class passengers could also afford to pay exorbidant ticket prices that could be as high as $10,000 one way. This business model allowed Concorde to generate a profit for its operators until the fleet was grounded following the Air France crash in 2000.

The accident investigation that followed lasted for an extended period and revealed a number of troubling safety concerns. Both British and French authorities revoked the Concorde's airworthiness certificates and mandated several modifications to the remaining fleet before Concorde would be allowed to fly again. Both airlines felt the aircraft could still be profitable and invested millions of dollars to return Concorde to service. Once authorities had agreed that the plane was again safe to fly, passenger service resumed in September 2001.

By this time, however, the air travel industry was in a serious downturn following the September 11 terrorist attacks. The slump in business caused passenger traffic on Concorde to drop so low that the airlines were having difficulty turning a profit. The situation only became worse when Airbus, the maintenance and parts supplier for Concorde, announced that the aircraft would no longer be supported after October 2003. The loss of this support meant that the airlines would be forced to acquire all the spare parts and complete all maintenance on their own, which was simply too expensive. The Airbus decision to stop supporting Concorde coupled with the loss of passengers doomed the aircraft to retirement. As the chief executive of Airbus, Noel Forgeard, said, "The costs of operating Concorde, and in particular maintenance and support, have become such that operations are unrealistic for any operator."

As for the second part of your question, there are a number of improvements that could potentially make supersonic travel more economical. One of the most important concerns to airlines is the cost of operating an aircraft per the number of passengers it carries per mile it travels, or the "cost per seat-mile." Concorde never proved to be a commercial success because it cost too much to operate and carried too few passengers. To be a success, any future SST will need to carry at least twice as many passengers as Concorde and its fuel consumption will have to be comparable to a competing subsonic airliner.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 08:27:48 am by jr2 »

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
i like the fuel cell concept cars. battery cars only work so well if your daily usage < cars max range. so its a good take to work car, though not as flexible as something you can just re-fuel at a gas station. so long as you remember to jack it in at the end of the day, and pay your electric bill on time. car running on a fuel cell, follows the gasoline usage model. dont have to close down the gas station, just change your fuel stock.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
i like the fuel cell concept cars. battery cars only work so well if your daily usage < cars max range. so its a good take to work car, though not as flexible as something you can just re-fuel at a gas station. so long as you remember to jack it in at the end of the day, and pay your electric bill on time. car running on a fuel cell, follows the gasoline usage model. dont have to close down the gas station, just change your fuel stock.

Let's not forget the other big minus of electric vehicles - in most of the world, electricity itself is not obtained in environmentally-friendly (or efficient, on the flip side) ways.  I run into the attitude in Alberta a lot among the eco-political that electric cars are an environmentally-friendly alternative to gasoline and diesel engines.  They are not - our electricity comes mostly from coal-fired generators at present, which are way worse than modern gasoline and diesel automobile engines in terms of emissions.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
that argument applies to hydrogen as well. hydrogen production can be done with electricity (same problem), or chemically (bad for the environment). either way, you need nuke plants, lots and lots of them. some reactor configurations can produce hydrogen as a byproduct, and that can feed the hydrogen cars (fuel cell / hydrogen engines), and electricity produced can feed electric cars. it makes sense to utilize all available technologies and have them compete with each-other or fill niches.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 09:56:04 am by Nuke »
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Offline jr2

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
If you have enough nuke plants that = cheap power, which means instead of gas stations you could probably have electric charge / battery swap-out stations, in addition to charging at home.  Rather than going nuke - hydrogen - electric, why not just nuke - electric?

 

Offline Enzo03

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
Holy crap.

What happened to the gaming stuff? :(
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Offline The E

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
It got discarded in favour of a more interesting discussion. This is HLP, get used to it.
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Offline Enzo03

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
Like I don't already know that :lol:
21:20:19   SpardaSon21: "hey baby, want to get a good look at my AC/20?
21:20:26   Spoon: I'd hit it like the fist of steiner

Some people are like Slinkies.  They aren't really good or even useful for anything but they always manage to put a little smile on your face when you give them enough of a push down the stairs.

 

Offline z64555

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
If you have enough nuke plants that = cheap power, which means instead of gas stations you could probably have electric charge / battery swap-out stations, in addition to charging at home.  Rather than going nuke - hydrogen - electric, why not just nuke - electric?

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
Pick your poison:
  • Ghastly and horrific Death by silent radiation leaks
  • Instant/Burning Death by explosion
  • Slow Death by air/water pollution

Please tell me you are being facetious.
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Offline FlamingCobra

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Re: Deeply Technical Gaming Stuff
How far away are we from acrologies?