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Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
I have just read a great article, in the British published Astronomy Now magazine about Project Icarus, probably our first serious attempt at interstellar flight, you may be surprised to hear that some of the advanced propulsion ideas put forward are more "advanced" (in terms of our current engineering levels) than thought. For someone like me who thinks we will eventually go to the stars this is exciting stuff, maybe we'll be launching interstellar probes sooner rather than later if these guys succeed.

For those of you who may be interested here are some links....

http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/index.php

http://www.centauri-dreams.org/

http://www.100yss.org/

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
So, theory for future planning is more serious than practice, now?  :wtf:

I missed the memorandum, I guess.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
i find so many people thumping science fiction for a means of interstellar travel, but till you throw actual engineers at the problem you will never know. it aint gonna be no small construction thats for sure. my idea is something i like to call the iceball of doom:

pluck an ice dwarf out of the kuiper belt, fit it with very large nuclear water rocket engines (or nswr, or pretty much any nuclear-electric engine technology that can use that will accept the melted ice, and not necessarily water-ice, as propellant), and using the ice dwarf itself as propellant, and radiation shielding for internal habitation. this of course requires surface mining facilities (using a melt, filter, feed process). surface ice is fed into a melting furnace, filtered for harmful impurities and pumped directly to the engines. surface mining facilities and engines would be mobile so that you can move them as you clear areas of ice or need thrust in different directions.

habitation would exist in centrifugal modules to provide earthlike gravity (in addition to natural low gravity) and buried underground to shield them from space radiation. they would include hydroponics facilities, livestock farms, factories, etc. there would be many of these habitats, rotating in different directions to maintain torque neutrality, taking one off-line for maintenance requires taking a complementary habitat off line or changing the speeds of other habitat's rotation temporarily. they could also be built with integrated anti-torque systems such as high angular velocity flywheels.

given the mass of the object any undesired angular momentum should be avoided. since it will be more efficient to relocate the engines and mining facilities than it would be to spin up/down the entire ice dwarf, angular momentum will be kept at a set value and engines will be gimballed slightly to help maintain it. however rotation is not necessarily a bad thing. as you want to keep surface mining even to avoid creating hazards to future engine moving operations. rotating the ice dwarf allows you to move rotation lagging engines forward to lead the rotation to ensure even surface consumption.

power will be all nuclear as the engines and mining facilities would use the lions share of the power and will require their own reactors. habitation modules would require much smaller reactors. it might be more efficient to run a power grid through a network of sub surface habitation access tunnels which would provide transportation access between habitats and allow miners and other surface workers as close to the burn site or other surface facilities (science or communications for example) as possible before emerging to the hostile surface environment. the power gird would be fed by centralized high output nuclear or (technology allowing) fusion reactors. nuclear reactors should be complementary so that byproducts of reactor 1 could be fed into reactor 2 and so on to maximize use of fissile material. if feasabe the grid could also power mining systems and engines depending on their technologies.

ice dwarfs may also contain other materials useful for agricultural and industrial applications, and these could be extracted (filtered from ice or mined from deposits within the ice or extracted from the core) and utilized. given the nature of the vehicle and the need to keep it frozen, it does not allow direct access to the habitable zones of the target solar system. so smaller spacecraft would need to be brought along for the ride (or built on-board) to explore habitable zones of target solar systems, while the mothership itself maintains a high solar orbit. during exploration and science missions, other inhabitants will dispatch themselves on resource gathering missions. parking the "ship" near asteroid belts or in rings of gas giants would aid these operations. you might also transplant the entire colony into a new ice dwarf it propellant supply or resource availability is low. this would allow for exploration of multiple solar systems on a multi-century survey of multiple star systems, you could even leave behind seed colonies on potentially habitable or terraformable world.

this is a concept of a sustainable generation ship and is capable of seeding colonies, gathering information, and is also a viable long-term space colony, because it can move about and exploit new resources. it would require some degree of social engineering to keep continuous generations on the original mission and to avoid war-scale mutinies from wasting essential resources and potentially destroying the viability of the colony. population control will also be necessary to control the expenditure of available resources, and given the limited size of the gene pool would need to prevent or control inbreeding or potently use selective breeding and genetic engineering to engineer a more space-worthy human (or a human suitable for a particular environment for a seed colony).

i have not actually attempted to determine what kind of delta-v such an iceball of doom colony would have and more data on candidate ice dwarfs is required to determine if this idea is viable.

tldr: use ice dwarfs as space ships
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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
Well they are talking about a 100 year plan because the most obvious stumbling block is the propulsion system, in Europe , Great Britain and the USA there are labs developing fusion reactors, which according to the article i read are making progress. They believe that by the middle of this century fusion reactors would be operational, so they are allowing sufficient time for this technology to mature enough to be used for Icarus. They are also looking at a two staged starship design, the first stage would be a solar sail which would be jettisoned upon leaving our solar system. Also the time period set out by the project leaders would allow for more or better choice extrasolar planets to be discovered, but my personal thoughts would target our nearest neighbours such as Alpha/Proxima Centauri and Barnard's star systems as they are within 6 lyrs.....easy lol!! :)

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
we could have had heavy ion fusion in the 70s if scientists didnt find watching a glowey stream of plasma spin around a tokamak so facinating. modern inertial confinement, always with the lasers. scientists like pretty lights. they need to stop looking at pretty lights and use a god damned particle accelerator.
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Offline Alex Heartnet

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
-snip-
this is a concept of a sustainable generation ship and is capable of seeding colonies, gathering information, and is also a viable long-term space colony, because it can move about and exploit new resources. it would require some degree of social engineering to keep continuous generations on the original mission and to avoid war-scale mutinies from wasting essential resources and potentially destroying the viability of the colony. population control will also be necessary to control the expenditure of available resources, and given the limited size of the gene pool would need to prevent or control inbreeding or potently use selective breeding and genetic engineering to engineer a more space-worthy human (or a human suitable for a particular environment for a seed colony).

By the time technology has progressed far enough for us to launch starships, our bodies might not be organic anymore.  I would imagine it being much easier to control a group of robots.

(And a discussion about human robots is worthy of a whole different thread)

 

Offline watsisname

Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
we could have had heavy ion fusion in the 70s if scientists didnt find watching a glowey stream of plasma spin around a tokamak so facinating. modern inertial confinement, always with the lasers. scientists like pretty lights. they need to stop looking at pretty lights and use a god damned particle accelerator.

In the early days of particle accelerators, physicists sometimes stuck their heads in the particle beam to watch the pretty lights inside their heads.

Then they realized relativistic protons were bad for you.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
-snip-
this is a concept of a sustainable generation ship and is capable of seeding colonies, gathering information, and is also a viable long-term space colony, because it can move about and exploit new resources. it would require some degree of social engineering to keep continuous generations on the original mission and to avoid war-scale mutinies from wasting essential resources and potentially destroying the viability of the colony. population control will also be necessary to control the expenditure of available resources, and given the limited size of the gene pool would need to prevent or control inbreeding or potently use selective breeding and genetic engineering to engineer a more space-worthy human (or a human suitable for a particular environment for a seed colony).

By the time technology has progressed far enough for us to launch starships, our bodies might not be organic anymore.  I would imagine it being much easier to control a group of robots.

(And a discussion about human robots is worthy of a whole different thread)

i very much doubt that this will happen any time soon. interstellar travel just requires a massive scale up of existing technology and technologies currently in development. we dont even know how we could transfer a human consciousness into a computer. i have doubts that cpu technology is even remotely compatible with the way the brain works. the human brain more closely resembles an artificial neural network, than a cpu. computers are too well organized, too black and white. it would be both inaccurate and inefficient to simulate analog systems (like the brain) on digital circuitry.

then there is the matter of copying not only the attributes of each neuron, connections, what voltage it trips at, potential unleashed when it does trip. neurotransmitters present during the neuron interaction, etc. it takes an entire modern cpu to simulate one neuron, and as you start adding more cpus you also must simulate complex interactions. simulation of a simple (think insect) brain is not really viable on anything but a supercomputer. start scaling up to trillions of neurons and you find the number of interactions that must be simulated will also scale. welcome to n^2 complexity! lets ignore the fact that we need to record a snapshot of the state of every neuron right down to the quantum level (enter the heisenburg uncertanty principal) at the same exact time (doing otherwise would scramble the whole brain), then you map that data onto an artificial neural network, or a simulation of one and maybe it will start thinking, or it could just crash and catch on fire. then youd need to radiation harden the thing for space travel (thats the easy part).
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
That actually fits in with something I was idly wondering about the other day while trying to fall asleep.  I tend to have a pretty good long-term memory, and I was thinking about exactly how my brain was able to "store" things like who knows how many thousands of individual songs/melodies, or big chunks of movies, or level data from hundreds of games that I've seen and played in the past.  Obviously a computer stores such data on a hard drive as massive strings of on/off bits, but how does a neural network comprised of trillions of interconnected neurons accomplish the same task?  I'm not sure if we really have a solid model for long-term memory storage and retrieval yet; Battman might be able to go more in-depth about it.  And even if we did, it's one thing to understand how memory works, and something entirely different to be able to replicate it computationally.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
That actually fits in with something I was idly wondering about the other day while trying to fall asleep.  I tend to have a pretty good long-term memory, and I was thinking about exactly how my brain was able to "store" things like who knows how many thousands of individual songs/melodies, or big chunks of movies, or level data from hundreds of games that I've seen and played in the past.  Obviously a computer stores such data on a hard drive as massive strings of on/off bits, but how does a neural network comprised of trillions of interconnected neurons accomplish the same task?  I'm not sure if we really have a solid model for long-term memory storage and retrieval yet; Battman might be able to go more in-depth about it.  And even if we did, it's one thing to understand how memory works, and something entirely different to be able to replicate it computationally.

I've wondered the same thing and I don't know how it works, but someone does. I heard that some scientists somewhere identified in rats where specifically they stored memories, and when they applied some chemical to break down those specific cells or molecules, the rats forgot stuff. No, I don't have a link or sauce, I just heard about it from a friend. Maybe someone else has heard of this and will elaborate. (or maybe I'm full of ****...)
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
The Daedelus project was actually a more feasable idea, but because of that strange agreement about nuclear explosions in space, it never left the drawing board 20 years ago. If it had, it's possible a small automated version could already have reached the nearer stars.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
That actually fits in with something I was idly wondering about the other day while trying to fall asleep.  I tend to have a pretty good long-term memory, and I was thinking about exactly how my brain was able to "store" things like who knows how many thousands of individual songs/melodies, or big chunks of movies, or level data from hundreds of games that I've seen and played in the past.  Obviously a computer stores such data on a hard drive as massive strings of on/off bits, but how does a neural network comprised of trillions of interconnected neurons accomplish the same task?  I'm not sure if we really have a solid model for long-term memory storage and retrieval yet; Battman might be able to go more in-depth about it.  And even if we did, it's one thing to understand how memory works, and something entirely different to be able to replicate it computationally.

think of the brain as a big echo chamber. any sensory information will perpetually bounce around following neural pathways and reflect and cycle around and around. its kinda like analog delay line memory, only much more complex. memory is essentially abstracted sensory data bouncing around in your head with almost infinite (because pathways can loop around) paths in which that information is kept constantly moving. in a memory circuit the data is pretty much confined in a memory cell, and is only moved when data is either read from or written to the cell. instead information is kept constantly moving, and unlike signals in an electric circuit, they will not attenuate because the brain is also a glucose fuel cell pumping energy into the system. the signaling is actually chemical though and not purely electrical and the speed at which information moves is only about 200 mph.
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Offline Mikes

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
Lightsail and laser propulsion for uploaded human minds in a spaceship no bigger than a "coke can" as seen in Accelerando.

Can't say that wouldn't circumvent pretty much all of the major problems of sending actual "canned primates" anywhere on a "first mission". ;)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 11:56:01 pm by Mikes »

 
Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
In Paul Gilsters book Centauri dreams he covered all kinds of propulsion methods including the lightsail method, but he also talked of "nano darts" thousands of them in fact, launched together to increase the chances of mission success. This idea appeals to me only for the fact that a nano probe would have a very low mass and thus could attain a relativistic speed (if my physics serves me right!!) but I'm not really sure how advanced our nanotechnology is at present time, also i agree about we need an advanced CPU with some artificial intelligence onboard for a mission of this magnitude.

With regard to our brains ability to store memories maybe that subject needs a thread of its own, to discuss how certain "survival instincts" are hardwired into our and animals DNA and why some people claim to have memories of past lives.... maybe our families ancestors memories are included in our DNA just like the survival instincts, just a thought.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 01:55:35 am by Sheridan_37 »

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
With regard to our brains ability to store memories maybe that subject needs a thread of its own, to discuss how certain "survival instincts" are hardwired into our and animals DNA and why some people claim to have memories of past lives.... maybe our families ancestors memories are included in our DNA just like the survival instincts, just a thought.

Probably not. That would go against most of what we know about DNA.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
With regard to our brains ability to store memories maybe that subject needs a thread of its own, to discuss how certain "survival instincts" are hardwired into our and animals DNA and why some people claim to have memories of past lives.... maybe our families ancestors memories are included in our DNA just like the survival instincts, just a thought.

Probably not. That would go against most of what we know about DNA.

Change your probably to definitely.  Instinct is a product of behavioural evolution.  Memory is encoded in an entirely different way, and is not heritable.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
all this does belong in another thread so il keep it short.

dna is not mankind's hard drive! you are born with the same genes you die with and you only really pass 1/2 of them. so its just a set structure, not a data storage medium. you need to start getting into epigenetics to discover how dna actually works. but information bouncing around in your head never gets stored anywhere (its always moving thought the grey matter and not being put away as in memory systems), sadly to say its like running a computer without any kind of non-volatile storage device. it only works while its powered. using a computer to store human consciousness is a lot like driving a nail with a hacksaw. we need an entirely different kind of machine for that.

i dont believe that any biological modification aside from genetic engineering or selective breeding will happen before interstellar travel is possible. advances in ai is definitely going to happen and we will be able to do a large slew of interstellar vehicles running an ai will one day be launched. likely as a precursor to human extrasolar space exploration. we will need in-space infrastructure to pull off either one. because considering how big some of these ships will need to be, launching them from earth would be equivalent to setting off a good sized nuke.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 11:13:13 am by Nuke »
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Project Icarus: Mankinds attempt at interstellar travel and starship design
think of the brain as a big echo chamber. any sensory information will perpetually bounce around following neural pathways and reflect and cycle around and around. its kinda like analog delay line memory, only much more complex. memory is essentially abstracted sensory data bouncing around in your head with almost infinite (because pathways can loop around) paths in which that information is kept constantly moving. in a memory circuit the data is pretty much confined in a memory cell, and is only moved when data is either read from or written to the cell. instead information is kept constantly moving, and unlike signals in an electric circuit, they will not attenuate because the brain is also a glucose fuel cell pumping energy into the system. the signaling is actually chemical though and not purely electrical and the speed at which information moves is only about 200 mph.
Woah...trippy...