[TrashMan]

I'm not saying the game will suck, I'm saying the game will fail to be tactical and deep with this "streamlining".
The game doesn't have to be a copy, ti has to be decent (after all, I liked Duke Nukem Forever. I support Jagged Alliance: Back in Action. I'm not the one to be blinded by nerdrage and false expectations)

But this?
No Action points/time units? That's one of the key elements that differentiates soldeirs and weapons. Some weapons take a lot of TU's to fire. Some don't. Amount of reaction fire depending on the TU's left? Things like that. Gone.

At least UFO: Aftershcok still had it - TU's were still there, but everything was going on simountaniously. It might have been real-time, but the tactical depth was there.


Abstracted ammo? Only 1 base? Yeah, we can't have console players straing themselves with such "usueless" clutter.


For a "spiritual Sucessor" it seems to be drifting away quite far.
I'm gonna wait for more info, but what I'm seeing isn't filling me with confidence.

[mxlm]

Being like the NMA community is not a goal worth aspiring to.

[The E]

For a "spiritual Sucessor" it seems to be drifting away quite far.
I'm gonna wait for more info, but what I'm seeing isn't filling me with confidence.

Spiritual successor != Remake. Streamlining != a bad thing. Personally, I found the original UFO games to be unplayably complex and needlessly complicated. I'd like to have a crack at this franchise with some easier-to-grasp mechanics.

[TrashMan]

For a "spiritual Sucessor" it seems to be drifting away quite far.
I'm gonna wait for more info, but what I'm seeing isn't filling me with confidence.

Spiritual successor != Remake. Streamlining != a bad thing. Personally, I found the original UFO games to be unplayably complex and needlessly complicated. I'd like to have a crack at this franchise with some easier-to-grasp mechanics.

Some people enjoy those "incredibly complex" mechanics.
And "streamlining PR talk" almost always end up runing things. Exceptiosn are too few to even mention. I cna't recall the last time I found the "stremlined" game better than its' predecessor.

I'm more pissed at the name of the game and being called a sucessor to X-Com than the actual game. It feels like false advertising and an insult to my intelligence.

[newman]

Yes, the lack of time units does mean they're changing the mechanics quite a bit and that it won't play like X-COM. It does not automatically follow the game will be dumbed down. It sounds to me that they're replacing the entire combat system with a new one they're making from scratch. It could end up bad, but it could end up great. We don't know yet, and I don't see a point of subscribing to "not like UFO so it's dumb" thinking model just yet.

I didn't find the original game's mechanics too complex to grasp, but parts of it were tedious. Base management, mostly. Having too much stuff in your cargo bays you don't want to sell, so you build more cargo bays in a different base, and in the mean time you can't unload some stuff from your transport craft to give your soldiers a new toy you developed, etc. There was some clunky micromanagement there that could have used a revision. As for combat, it could very well end up bad. I can even agree that most "streamlined" remake games end up dumbed down. I just can't agree that you can decide this will be the case based on a few bullet points. I'm willing to give this one a benefit of the doubt.

[Rodo]

Perk system?

mmm... this smells like teen spirit.

no wait that's not it, smells like you'll have 8 soldiers each of them with a special gun/ability and that's it.

OH BOY, UFO franchise is AGAIN looking at a difficult terror mission ahead.

[BlueFlames]

I'm more pissed at the name of the game and being called a sucessor to X-Com than the actual game. It feels like false advertising and an insult to my intelligence.

Because nothing should ever change, ever, ever, ever.

I'll grant, the changes listed aren't the ones I would have made to the mechanics, but as a long-time fan of the original UFO Defense, I don't see any deal-breakers in there as yet.  My knee-jerk reaction is to gripe about the one-base-plus-hangars system on the Geoscape, but with the benefit of hindsight, I (and many others, based on a whole lot of forum lurking) had a primary base for research and training, supported by satelite bases to ensure sufficient interceptor coverage.  With what little we know about the tactical combat system, the action and perk systems make it sound like there will be a d20 system vibe to the experience.*  That's a pretty strong foundation with which to start, and considering how Firaxis has consistently crafted some of the best strategy games since the bloke who came up with Chess, I think it's a bit early to be blasting this one as a betrayal to the franchise.

Being like the NMA community is not a goal worth aspiring to.

Said like a person who never actually visited NMA, during the Fallout 3 debacle.  That community raised a lot of valid concerns and criticisms about Fallout 3.  The developer shoved the franchise into a different genre; the writing staff was not nearly the same caliber as the previous games had benefited from; the underlying technology was out-dated when development began, etc., etc., etc.  Despite their portrayal, the NMA community made a really strong argument that trading Black Isle for Bethesda was an enormous step down for the Fallout franchise.

Of course, that doesn't apply in the slightest, in the case of X-COM.  Firaxis is a top-notch developer, and strategy games are their specialty.  While they may be changing the game mechanics, they're not shoving the franchise into a different genre entirely, and they've enough history with that genre to make a strategy game worthy of the X-COM name.  They could still royally screw it up, but with only that tiny list of changes and Firaxis' track record by which to judge, it's way too early to make that assumption.

* - Actually, has there ever been a tabletop adaptation of X-COM?  If not, then now that I think about it, d20 Modern seems like it was built for such a project.

[TrashMan]

Yes, the lack of time units does mean they're changing the mechanics quite a bit and that it won't play like X-COM. It does not automatically follow the game will be dumbed down. It sounds to me that they're replacing the entire combat system with a new one they're making from scratch. It could end up bad, but it could end up great. We don't know yet, and I don't see a point of subscribing to "not like UFO so it's dumb" thinking model just yet.

I didn't say the game will suck or that the game will be dumb.
Stop putting words in my mouth.

I am saying that simplyifying reduces depth.
And there WILL be simplyfiying because the game is for the consoles.

I can even agree that most "streamlined" remake games end up dumbed down. I just can't agree that you can decide this will be the case based on a few bullet points. I'm willing to give this one a benefit of the doubt.

I haven't "decided" anything.
I'm being catiously pessimistic, but hopefull. OR is that a crime these days?

[TrashMan]

I'm more pissed at the name of the game and being called a sucessor to X-Com than the actual game. It feels like false advertising and an insult to my intelligence.

Because nothing should ever change, ever, ever, ever.

Did I say that? Did I?

I'm going to murder the next guy to start throwing strawmen by arguing thing I never said.

[lostllama]

* - Actually, has there ever been a tabletop adaptation of X-COM?  If not, then now that I think about it, d20 Modern seems like it was built for such a project.

I came across this a while ago: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18206/x-com-tactical.

[BlueFlames]

I'm more pissed at the name of the game and being called a sucessor to X-Com than the actual game. It feels like false advertising and an insult to my intelligence.

Because nothing should ever change, ever, ever, ever.

Did I say that? Did I?

Yes, you did.  You said it in numerous places, including the post where you quoted the list of changes.  You said it when you suggested that changes to the ruleset are a betrayal.  You said it when you suggested that every game to ever be "streamlined" was ruined in the process.   You said it in the very bit that I quoted previously, when you said that because there were going to be changes, calling the game X-COM would be, "false advertising and an insult to my intelligence."  Your words, not mine.

If you reread your own posts, it won't be that difficult to see where we've gotten the impression that you think all change is bad.  You've either radically changed your opinion from your previous posts to this one, or you're conveying your opinion really poorly with overwrought rhetoric and unnuanced word-choice.  If you've got a nuanced opinion about the game, then you need to use language that reflects that, or you don't really have any grounds upon which to ***** about people mischaracterizing your feelings.

* - Actually, has there ever been a tabletop adaptation of X-COM?  If not, then now that I think about it, d20 Modern seems like it was built for such a project.

I came across this a while ago: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18206/x-com-tactical.

Mmmm....  That's certainly worth a look.  Might have to badger a few of my old RPG buddies into a couple of games to see how well it plays.

[NGTM-1R]

The only thing about this change that worries me is the opening of doors.

(Because as anyone who has played X-com knows, doors are creations of the devil.)

[redsniper]

*click-whirrrr*
PYOW! PYOW! PYOW! PYOWPYOWPYOWPYOW!
ArrRRRAaaRRrrgh!
Albert Bumblederp has died.
Rusty Shackleford has panicked.
Peanuts McGruffin has panicked.
Pierre Lefludeaux has panicked.
HIDDEN MOVEMENT
*click-whirrr*
HIDDEN MOVEMENT

I don't want to take my turn anymore. D:

[TrashMan]

I'm more pissed at the name of the game and being called a sucessor to X-Com than the actual game. It feels like false advertising and an insult to my intelligence.

Because nothing should ever change, ever, ever, ever.

Did I say that? Did I?

Yes, you did.  You said it in numerous places, including the post where you quoted the list of changes. You said it when you suggested that changes to the ruleset are a betrayal.  You said it when you suggested that every game to ever be "streamlined" was ruined in the process.   You said it in the very bit that I quoted previously, when you said that because there were going to be changes, calling the game X-COM would be, "false advertising and an insult to my intelligence."  Your words, not mine.

Since when does "change X is not good" = "all change is bad?"
Did I every say I want a complete copy of X-Com/UFO? Dear Lord, no. I haven't. It might be a fine game but there's plenty of things one can improve...like the interface for example.


And yes, I do still stand by my words. Change is nice and well, but not all change is for the better. Sometimes NOT changing something is (ironicly) a change in itself (compared to similar re-imaginings).
There's a limit to how much you can change and still claim that A is a legitimate sequel or "spiritual successor" of B.
Words carry meaning. Names carry expectations. It's that simple.

Now if you're done with this BS, maybe we could discuss....ya know... the game itself.

[Polpolion]

Expectations aside, I wouldn't mind changes as long as they don't needlessly impose further limits on what you can do in game. I think I'll be reserving judgment until at least I see some game play, though. Deus Ex: Human Revolution was a good prequel to the original Deus Ex; there's no reason why this game can't be good too.

Apparently GI came out today, some points cribbed from other sites:
- Destructible terrain
- No action points, each soldier will have 2 movements per turn eg. move & shoot, move move.
- cover system, behind environmental objects
- aliens from the first X-Com are in: mutons etc.
- Perk system for soldiers
- Only 1 main base with satellite coverage and hangers only in different countries for interception
- abstracted ammo
- combat options like suppressing fire and overwatch are in
- research and manufacturing will exist.
- soldiers can panic, get wounded etc.

I can't lie, I'm really looking forward to real suppressing fire. Hopefully the AI will be a bit brighter, too. One of my least favorite things about the first game that really was never addressed in any mods was that the AI never really did much except randomly pace around.

Also hopefully more BFG variety, maybe we'll have more to look at than the same gas station completely surrounded by identical warehouses (srsly wut) next to identical single story houses.

[Scourge of Ages]

Expectations aside, I wouldn't mind changes as long as they don't needlessly impose further limits on what you can do in game. I think I'll be reserving judgment until at least I see some game play, though. Deus Ex: Human Revolution was a good prequel to the original Deus Ex; there's no reason why this game can't be good too.

Good analogy, and my thoughts exactly, after considering the rest of the thread.
Although... the bit about "- abstracted ammo" has me thinking "Invisible War" more than I'm comfortable with. The no action points thing makes me nervous too, but could work fine, depending on how they work it.

Edit :
I've been thinking more about the "two-moves" thing, and I had an idea of how it could work. Picture this:


Imaging that stick figure is your guy. The blue radius represents how far you can move, and shoot twice (or maybe you won't be able to move at all), either auto or aimed. The green radius is how far you can move and shoot once, either auto or aimed. The yellow radius represents how far you can move if you don't feel like being able to fire at all.

After all, isn't that generally how you play X-COM, just without needing to worry about reserving TUs? I don't know how snap shot would work though, maybe there would be another radius if you want to be able to do that?

[StarSlayer]

Interview

[Rodo]

Hey that looks quite awesome I must say, I'm starting to like it very much now...

Will have to check the entire video later, must go now :C

[Scourge of Ages]

Oooh, seeing it in motion in glorious!

Also: Shotgun

[FireSpawn]

After watching the interview and reading up on it a little, I'm not too sure if the tingles I'm feeling are fear of the sanctity of the original, or nerdy arousal.