Author Topic: Manhacks  (Read 17079 times)

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Offline z64555

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It certainly seems to change attitude and height in a more refined way. On that subject, the quadcopter I'm helping out with now has an ultrasonic sensor for more precise altitude monitoring. In the end we didn't bother with getting an XBee board but it might be something to add later on.

We could do with having some suitable indoor testing space, preferably with a nice level surface so the quadcopter lifts off along its normal axis. And some netting like in those videos would be a good idea.

Actually, I might get around to helping with the flight testing (hovering) tomorrow.

Make sure you turn off the AC and any fans inside. Indoor flight gets hairy, because the recirculating air has a tendancy to significantly reduce lift at seemingly unpredictable moments. The nanoquads seem to be pretty sturdy in this sense, due to a couple of things.

Oh, btw. To my knowledge, bot formations and stuff like that has been around awhile. Just look at video games and simulations. Not sure how the swarm is controlled though, if it's controlled by a central computer or if they're doing it individually. (probably a combination)
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Offline General Battuta

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I believe there's no central intelligence, just the flock. It'd be less impressive otherwise.

 

Offline Nuke

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provided every quad copter had a set flight plan to be at a certain place at a certain time, and assuming the time between all quad rotors was in sync, you wouldnt need any external computer to control them. not to say that you cant do that arrangement, but it is certainly within the capabilities of a typical microcontroller to execute a well choreographed flight plan. if you want quad rotors that can analyze unfamiliar surroundings and navigate through them safely, youre gonna need more cpu power. of course with arm processors getting tiny as ****, its likely you could carry that cpu on-board and have some degree of autonomous operation, in say, an urban environment. having a quadrotor as a client attached to a sentient supercomputer would be a very bad situation indeed.
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Offline General Battuta

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provided every quad copter had a set flight plan to be at a certain place at a certain time, and assuming the time between all quad rotors was in sync, you wouldnt need any external computer to control them. not to say that you cant do that arrangement, but it is certainly within the capabilities of a typical microcontroller to execute a well choreographed flight plan. if you want quad rotors that can analyze unfamiliar surroundings and navigate through them safely, youre gonna need more cpu power. of course with arm processors getting tiny as ****, its likely you could carry that cpu on-board and have some degree of autonomous operation, in say, an urban environment. having a quadrotor as a client attached to a sentient supercomputer would be a very bad situation indeed.

I don't believe this is simply preset choreography; I believe the rotors have individual navigational ability.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Absolute coordinates and the real world don't work very well together, so I highly doubt they're preprogrammed flight paths.
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Offline FireSpawn

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I keep on imagining a flock of them flying in formation and dragging a monomolecular net behind them, chasing after my enemies.
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Offline Nuke

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Absolute coordinates and the real world don't work very well together, so I highly doubt they're preprogrammed flight paths.

provided an adequate inertial and positional references. the cumulative data from a gyro, accelerometer, input from gps, magnetometer, barometric sensor, optical rangefinders, cameras, etc, are sufficient parameters for a close approximation of actual position with regards to the earth. the more data the better. this data is of course subject to some error, thats why you have other sources of the same data to compare against. you can loosely follow an established flight plan, and any error between the real flight path and the virtual flight plan can be compensated for with clever pid algorithms. and you would want to have some proximity sensors to feed collision avoidance routines.

so there is some intelegence for following the flight plan. of course having it talk to a remote computer adds some latency to data logging and response commands. and the sensory data would still be the same (though you may add external motion capture systems as an additional data source, which is likely something done in the videos).

provided every quad copter had a set flight plan to be at a certain place at a certain time, and assuming the time between all quad rotors was in sync, you wouldnt need any external computer to control them. not to say that you cant do that arrangement, but it is certainly within the capabilities of a typical microcontroller to execute a well choreographed flight plan. if you want quad rotors that can analyze unfamiliar surroundings and navigate through them safely, youre gonna need more cpu power. of course with arm processors getting tiny as ****, its likely you could carry that cpu on-board and have some degree of autonomous operation, in say, an urban environment. having a quadrotor as a client attached to a sentient supercomputer would be a very bad situation indeed.

I don't believe this is simply preset choreography; I believe the rotors have individual navigational ability.

its likely a little of both. its impossible to follow the flight plan accurately, especialy if the path is physically impossible to follow with the uav. i was really just trying to compare the computational facilities of various control systems in that post and what they can do in terms of navigational capabilities. mcu being the least powerful, lightweight arm computer being a bit better, exteranl computers, supercomputers etc, being able to do some really fancy stuff.

regardless of the processing power of the computer that is flying it, the sensor data input would be the same (and as i said earlier you might use some off vehicle sensors as well), and the meathods for output would be the same, the only variables are how much processing power do you have, and how far away is that processor or external sensor data (manifested as latency, which in this case is bad).
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Offline z64555

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regardless of the processing power of the computer that is flying it, the sensor data input would be the same (and as i said earlier you might use some off vehicle sensors as well), and the meathods for output would be the same, the only variables are how much processing power do you have, and how far away is that processor or external sensor data (manifested as latency, which in this case is bad).

I think the flight controls itself are fairly simple, just a couple of multiplies and additions for a PID or FLC type system. Most of the computation time would then be processing and filtering the data from the sensors, with the CCD and image processors the most viscous (I assume).
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Offline Nuke

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yea, most sensors are low throughput devices. they dont need to move a whole lot of data, and so they can be sampled frequently and fed into the control algorithm with a minimum of latency, whereas it might take a microcontroller or a low end arm processor several hundreds or even thousands of milliseconds to process an image into a useful format for analysis. you can also throw hardware at the problem, one quad coptor had a ms kinect on top of it for realtime mapping of the environment. figure you could also use an fpga to accelerate the image processing to abstract the data coming out of the ccd (i think this is what trackir uses, the high pin count on the main chip seems to indicate its an fpga, though wiimotes seem to do the same job with a microcontroller just fine). really cpu power isnt all that much of a problem, via has a 6cm^2 x86 form factor and im sure you can get smaller with a high end arm processor. it wouldnt supprise me if you could get a full 1ghz without too much additional weight over a simple 8 bit mcu.
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Offline z64555

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An fpga would be real handy for the sensor filtering and fusion, since you can literally allot a portion of the thing to different tasks, and might even be able to handle the 6 or so dimensional controllers on top of that.

Watched a video of a quadrotor presentation at one of the TED conference today, something that struck me as odd is that the speaker mentioned that the core did control calculations 600 times per second. I find this odd, since most commercial ESC's out there operate at 50Hz, and even if you turbo the PWM you top out at about 300Hz. Those rare I2C ESC's are wonderful from what I've read, but even they top out at around 300Hz (unless I missed something).

So, even if you did perform 600, or even 1000 or 2000 control algo passes, your not going to get a change in performance if your ESC can't keep up.
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funtapaz: Hunchon University biologists prove mankind is evolving to new, higher form of life, known as Homopithecus Juche.
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Offline Nuke

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most of the hobby escs use hobby servo signaling for input, a 0.5 to 2.5ms pulse every 20 ms, where the length of the pulse length indicates the position of the servo (or in this case the motor speed). so roughly they can be updated 45 times a second. its ok, but not a lot. you have other delays as well. motors use coils, and coils are inductors, and inductors resist changes in current. so it takes a while for them to power up or down when the current changes (not long but log enough to cause some error). i figure its electronically impossible to do frequent updates to high power motors like these. thats why the quad coptor with the variable pitch rotors are more maneuverable than the ones those controlled with escs alone. even if your not regulating the motor speed that rapidly you can still sample the sensors and run your control algorithms so that when it comes time to update the motor's output you have the best solution possible to get the desired output.

the tricky part is that all your sensors may update at different rates, and all your control systems have electrical and mechanical delays, you probably cant sample your fps as fast as you can sample your gyro and accelerometer. any sensors that need to process a large amount of data will not be able to update very quickly. essentially all your ins and outs operate at different sample rates. you could run it all in one main loop, but you would be limited by your slowest sample rate. you kinda have to employ some degree of multi-threading so that all your inputs and outputs can be updated at their optimal rate. i dont want to even think about the kind of mayhem that causes on your control system.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 12:53:00 am by Nuke »
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Offline z64555

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The smaller motors may have an advantage on that note, since they not only have a lower moment of a inertia than the larger motors, but also their inductance per coil is reduced (since they usually have fewer turns per coil, and I think the smaller radius plays a role, too).

One interesting thing that I did notice from the TED video was that the guys related several key components, such as lift and rotational rate, to the radius of the propeller. I should point out though that this is not exactly the case, as they've forgotten about the pitch of the propeller as well.

For those who don't know, the fastest a propeller can ideally churn through any media is the same speed as its pitch. Realistically, I think that the propeller itself can achieve about 90% of its theoretical maximum, and less when the drag of the craft it's pulling (or pushing) comes into play.

I know that for a fact, in an [outrageously] ideal fluid, the calculations for the craft's maximal rotational speed is (w*P) / L, where w is the rotational speed of the motor ( unit revolutions per second), P is the pitch (unit distance per revolution) and L is the distance from the craft's center of gravity (same unit distance).

even if your not regulating the motor speed that rapidly you can still sample the sensors and run your control algorithms so that when it comes time to update the motor's output you have the best solution possible to get the desired output.

That's more or less oversampling, which should have the same effect as anti-aliasing. I think, however, that the ESC's play a role here too, as the one's I've used have a Nyquist filter on them (essentially it halves your bandwidth right then and there). Computations that have a relative frequency that is higher than the ESC's bandwitdth will be tossed out... meaning you just wasted a bunch of power on calculations that you don't use.

Quote
the tricky part is that all your sensors may update at different rates, and all your control systems have electrical and mechanical delays, you probably cant sample your fps as fast as you can sample your gyro and accelerometer. any sensors that need to process a large amount of data will not be able to update very quickly. essentially all your ins and outs operate at different sample rates. you could run it all in one main loop, but you would be limited by your slowest sample rate.

This is where frequency analysis and design comes in handy. You can apply frequency filter on the algorithms per sensor. A really basic example of this doubles as a simple way of fusing the IMU data of the accelerometer and the gyrometer: the complimentary filter. What this does is filter out the frequencies considered "noise" by both sensors and fuses them into one reading, say, your pitch angle. If you did your discrete math right, you'll get a clean reading from across both sensors, with either a small dip or a small bump in the signal gains at the points the sensor's bandwidths overlap.

Quote
you kinda have to employ some degree of multi-threading so that all your inputs and outputs can be updated at their optimal rate. i dont want to even think about the kind of mayhem that causes on your control system.
Multi-threading is definitely a must in this type of system, even though the control algo's themselves are pretty much pipelined, the sensor data will be used in multiple control algo's... Top that with sensors (EDIT: and/or algo's) operating at different frequencies and voila, a need for an OS.

Oh, and it shouldn't cause much mayhem with the control system, at least with a PID or FLC type. Outputs of some controller blocks will be an input to others (like linear motion down into rotatory motion), and they all finally get summed up to the final output.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 01:44:46 am by z64555 »
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Offline Nuke

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ive really only done basic control systems, i tried some pid stuff (cnc oriented) with limited success.

in case anyoen hasnt seen the ted video:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/vijay_kumar_robots_that_fly_and_cooperate.html

thers some stuff in it that wasnt posted here.
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Offline Nuke

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it doesnt fly but its another badass weapon in the ai arsenol

http://hackaday.com/2012/04/02/sphere-morphing-hexabot-now-rolls-around/
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Offline redsniper

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Morph ball!

Fffff****! We are a civilization that builds robots! Not just lame automated welder bots, but actual crazy sci-fi **** robots!
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Good lord, it even SOUNDS like a manhack.  Run!

(Of course, what's easier to shoot out of the sky than something barreling straight for you at zero declination? So no, Gordon, put down the crowbar, and get your shotgun!)
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Offline Mongoose

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Offline StarSlayer

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Wow, scale that up, color it MARPAT, add some weaponry and blamo instant stalker tank.
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Offline jr2

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I am reminded of those rolling bots from Star Wars Ep1.. what were they called?  Anyways, you know what I'm talking about.

 

Offline z64555

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I am reminded of those rolling bots from Star Wars Ep1.. what were they called?  Anyways, you know what I'm talking about.

Droidekas.
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funtapaz: Hunchon University biologists prove mankind is evolving to new, higher form of life, known as Homopithecus Juche.
z64555: s/J/Do
BotenAlfred: <funtapaz> Hunchon University biologists prove mankind is evolving to new, higher form of life, known as Homopithecus Douche.