[Goober5000]

A necessary first step for any such effort is to get a simple, one-click installer that actually works and plays nice with routinely updated content.

[Eishtmo]

Yeah, I guess we have to do that, since we can't exactly force retards to become clever enough to follow simple-ass tutorials...

People are lazy.  If they have to put any work into something, they'll go do something else.  Honestly, I would have thought you guys would have done it much, MUCH sooner.

[Mongoose]

Not only that, but there are certain quirks to the FS_Open mod system that can confuse even those who DO put in the time to read through the tutorials.  (Something like ST:R's usage of the otherwise obscure "primarylist" entry is a prime example.)  There's also the matter of convenience for those of us who know the mod system inside and out: it's far easier to have things update for you than to have to unzip a half-dozen downloads.

[General Battuta]

I still can't figure out how to install or troubleshoot FSPort

[jr2]

Wat?

[General Battuta]

Wat?

I'm not sure you understood me, maybe you should read my post again.

If you have trouble understanding the subtle nuances of my statement, please post again and I will give you a simple, step-by-step explanation of everything it means, including, if necessary, the concept of 'humor'.

FSPort is absolutely horrible to troubleshoot, and I've just given up on it. I run a lot of tech support for FSOpen on other websites, but when FreeSpace Port comes up in a problem report I just tell them to skip it, it's not worth the hassle.

[jr2]

Ah

[karajorma]

FSPort is absolutely horrible to troubleshoot, and I've just given up on it.

Why FSPort in particular?

[Ulala]

A necessary first step for any such effort is to get a simple, one-click installer that actually works and plays nice with routinely updated content.

I think this would help greatly in getting newcomers to give FSO a try. I can see why it would be a lot of work, though.

[Jeff Vader]

hip63 did some nice installers... that fixes the WinDOwS side of things, anyways...

Just that hip's installers were all offline installer and usually after he released one, a new build / a new set of MediaVPs / new something was released and anyone wanting to get a working, up to date and recommended installation had to download stuff manually.

FSPort is absolutely horrible to troubleshoot, and I've just given up on it.

Why FSPort in particular?

A few things that come to mind.

1) Because of the neverending support for FS2, the shinier parts have been separated into the FSPort MediaVP, but it isn't made clear enough that you'd really need to have the regularass MediaVPs installed as well. And hopefully to a directory that FSPort assumes them to be in.

2) The friggin numbering system:
FSPort 3.3.
FSPort MediaVPs 3.6.13.
The above files need the 3.6.12 MediaVPs.
All of the above is recommended to be run on FSO 3.6.14 (RC).

Not that version numbers affect the functionality or that anyone could demand that the SCP, the FSU and the FSPort posse keep their version numbers synchronized, but dude. Even I'm scared of this number jungle.

[General Battuta]

FSPort is absolutely horrible to troubleshoot, and I've just given up on it.

Why FSPort in particular?

I think it's the dependencies that bog down troubleshooting in particular. Blue Planet has gotten almost as bad. BP also has another horrible issue in that it's now unable to run on any builds except dev branch builds with huge bugs.

[mjn.mixael]

*sigh* Supporting FSPort isn't that hard.

1) Because of the neverending support for FS2, the shinier parts have been separated into the FSPort MediaVP, but it isn't made clear enough that you'd really need to have the regularass MediaVPs installed as well. And hopefully to a directory that FSPort assumes them to be in.

Delete, move, or rename your current FSPort and FSPort MediaVP directories. Unpack the zip packages into your 'games/freespace2/fsport' and 'games/freespace2/fsport-mediavps' directories. Then select either of those folders from the MOD tab of the Launcher.
If you are using the FSPort Media VPs, be sure that you have the official FreeSpace 2 3.6.12 MediaVPs installed in 'mediavps_3612' and you're using FSO 3.6.12 Final or newer.

Yeah, that's from the release thread. Pretty clear the MedaVPs are needed...

2) The friggin numbering system:
FSPort 3.3.
FSPort MediaVPs 3.6.13.
The above files need the 3.6.12 MediaVPs.
All of the above is recommended to be run on FSO 3.6.14 (RC).

Not that version numbers affect the functionality or that anyone could demand that the SCP, the FSU and the FSPort posse keep their version numbers synchronized, but dude. Even I'm scared of this number jungle.

Seriously? As one offering support you'll almost never see those numbers (save for the SCP version). If you get to the point of needing to check for the correct version, you should be looking at checksums which will be pretty clear, pretty quickly. All the checksums are in the release thread.

No, I suspect the reason is that over the years it has gotten a (well deserved) reputation for being a buggy mess, and at this point it doesn't matter how cleaned up it gets.. people keep telling others that it's a buggy mess. I've tried to clean it up, but frankly my hands are tied in more ways than one. (How many FSPort support requests have you gotten recently? I'm genuinly curious, because I think it's gone down.)

Sure the dependencies are numerous. But it's not that. Interesting that you mention BP's issues though, Battuta. I'll be watching to see how much support that gets despite having similar dependency issues.

[General Battuta]

Sure the dependencies are numerous. But it's not that. Interesting that you mention BP's issues though, Battuta. I'll be watching to see how much support that gets despite having similar dependency issues.

The BP issues have only arisen with the recent update, which I wasn't involved with. It's certainly gotten me a little perplexed.

I think you have to remember that when we suggest someone play FreeSpace, we're effectively making a sell. And when they ask 'this looks amazing, how do I play?' we have to say 'Well, to start with FreeSpace 1, please install FreeSpace 2 Open 3.6.14 RC5, install the 3.6.12 MediaVPs to a folder called mediavps_3612 (DON'T CHANGE THE NAME), install FreeSpace Port 3.3, install FreeSpace Port MediaVPs 3.6.13, install Silent Threat Reborn, CHECK ALL YOUR FOLDER NAMES, now download Launcher 5.5g oh that doesn't work well get WXLauncher, now go to the Mod tab and select 'FreeSpace Port MediaVPs', no, not FreeSpace Port, FreeSpace Port MediaVPs, now please check all the following command line options, NO DON'T USE THE BUILD THAT ENDS IN D'

Then they roll their eyes and say 'Is there an installer that will at least get me all these files?'

And we say 'no'.

That's a tough sell.

No, I suspect the reason is that over the years it has gotten a (well deserved) reputation for being a buggy mess, and at this point it doesn't matter how cleaned up it gets.. people keep telling others that it's a buggy mess. I've tried to clean it up, but frankly my hands are tied in more ways than one. (How many FSPort support requests have you gotten recently? I'm genuinly curious, because I think it's gone down.)

Most of the support requests I handle are on a different forum.

[mjn.mixael]

Meh, half that is stuff FSPort doesn't control. You can't blame FSPort for that, especially the lack of an installer.

All I'm saying is that I've worked my backside off to clean up FSPort as much as Galemp and Goober will let me. And no thanks to anyone else (save Zacam and MatthTheGeek who actually helped test things) it's more bug free than it's ever been.

If people don't want to install everything needed, then I say screw em. They can try to get retail FS1 to work instead. What's the saying I hear thrown around all the time to say that FSPort is terrible and retail FS1 should be played instead?

And if you guys don't want to support FSPort then don't. But stop complaining about it all the time like you actually want to support it. All your complaining won't fix things.

[General Battuta]

I absolutely believe you and I'm grateful for your work. I'm not blaming FSPort for anything; this is an illustration of a general problem with FreeSpace mods. I'm saying that we need a reliable, effective one-click install solution so that people's work can be better appreciated.

[headdie]

Would a new entry in Mod.ini be possible / help with dependencies.  What I am thinking is:

[multimod]
primarylist  = ;
secondarylist = blueplanet,mediavps_3612;
ModName = "Blue Planet WiH1";

Under this system when the user launcher selects, for example, WiH part 2 (obviously once it is released) it not only reads for folder names like now it also reads any mod.ini files it finds under ...\Freespace 2\<folder names> for the same primary/secondary list mod names, then when it finds a mod.ini with the requested Modname it reads back for the folder name and creates the -mod <folder name> switch that it already does. 

It might make it easier to deal with newbies, especially if the Debug Log file records the ModName value.  by placing the "Do Not Change" part inside a file it reduces the chances of said newbies causing problems because they can use unexpected folder names and not break things (someone will play with the mod.ini i know but i imagine it would be much fewer than the number who have issues with getting the folder name right) and by recording the information in the log it would still allow everyone trying to fix issues to know which mod is involved.

[Rga_Noris]

Launcher Point: Agreed with Batts. An Steam style interface would be cool. Defaults to a news tab. Has a 'Play' Tab. Under the Play tab, you can select which mods you want, which are all preconfigured. For example, if you select FSPort, it should run FSPort, and the end user should never give a damn about folder directory names. If a component is missing when the user clicks on FSPort, it will give the option to download it with a brief description of what is. If someone does want to mess with directory names, then they can click mod properties next to it's name in the list. A 'store' like page will be available for users to download new mods, that will install on their own, manage their own dependencies by either finding them in the users directory, or suggesting a download. An 'advanced' tab should be available. Here the user can select if they want to try nightlies or test builds. Otherwise, it defaults to the latest official release.

The Kickstarter thing: I'm not saying I am for this, but someone needs to communicate with Interplay from the very beginning. They may not be thrilled to one day see a kickstarter spring up claiming it's raising money to buy their IP. They may not want to sell it. They may only sell under certain conditions, gleaming a portion of the profit. It would be wise to get some money before contacting them, to show that you mean business, but be prepared for it to be far more complex than "I has the monies now give me the IP".

[karajorma]

wxLauncher was supposed to be able to do much of what you suggest. I really have no idea why development has stalled so much. Is it just a lack of coders?

[Iss Mneur]

wxLauncher was supposed to be able to do much of what you suggest. I really have no idea why development has stalled so much. Is it just a lack of coders?

More or less.  A lack of coders with time would be a better way to put it.

jg18 has done a wonderful job of cleaning up wxLauncher and making it work on OS X. Unfortunately, he has (school) work to do (i.e., making computing better with research).

When I haven't been drowning in work, I haven't had the inclination to do much coding in my spare time (and at this point I am the reason that wxLauncher is still pending 0.9.0).

kkmic has caught a life (wife and child).


As for the "steam style interface" (be careful with that phrase; it can get you a lot of flak from certain members of this community), please see the wxLauncher 2.0 thread.

Also, the new installer that Goober has been working on (for longer than I have been working on wxLauncher) is supposed to help a great deal in that direction.  Though why Goober didn't actually say that above, I don't know, we will have to ask him.

There was also some work on getting FSO into Desura, though. I have no idea how that went or is currently going, considering what they did with Diaspora.

[karajorma]

Yeah, I personally lost pretty much any interest in the ModDB after that nonsense. I'll have to see about spending more time on the launcher once Diaspora R1 is done.