Author Topic: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests  (Read 12394 times)

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Offline Nuke

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
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i kinda think features need to be as broad and far reaching as possible to get the most out of them. im not a big fan of the mod (or sf universe) specific feature
I kinda think you need to stop talking. I'd hate for actual coders to be even remotely influenced by this train of thought.
This is what you sound like to me "I don't actually play or mod anything, but I think it's better for all those mods that are in production and reliant on the implentation of certain features to be completely stalled because I have the vague impression that the code is being 'inflated' by all these new things."
If you are not actually going to participate in a meaningful way in the mod scene, don't go and try to backseat code or backseat moderate on what you think the SCP should be doing,
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im not pointing any fingers. everyone seems to assume i am. i was merely stating what i think is an optimal feature design paradigm. as a modder i may be retired, but i have added several features to the engine, not to mention all the work ive done with scripting (including new features). surely my examples have inspired others.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Everyone assumes you are out of touch, something you actually seem to confirm yourself.
When you start to promote 'an optimal feature design paradigm' that would screw mods over I get grumpy. At least make an effort to be up to date with the scene before doing these meaningless suggestions.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
i am out of touch, i admit. but i'm not looking to "screw over mods" as much as i am at improving the engine. frankly i dont see what could be so threatening about a paradigm that encourages broad, far reaching features that are highly configurable and not universe specific (in that they should be configurable enough to fit any universe or gameplay style the modder requires). how is that threatening? how does that "screw mods over"? i dont see what youre freaking out about. im certainly not talking about deprecating existing features (even though in some cases it might be a good idea).
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Do you have any recent features in mind that you feel are too universe-specific?

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
recent? no. though for awhile i was convinced that diaspora was intentionally crippling the script side rtt with their dradis gauge (i had rtt radar gauges back in 2008 btw, and i made those scripts available on my svn over at fs mods). this just turned out to be a bug though, so my paranoid delusions were completely unjustified. :D
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
"Better prevent this mod do this really cool thing with this one feature, It's 'too universe specific'! Can't have it clog up the engine!"
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
"Better prevent this mod do this really cool thing with this one feature, It's 'too universe specific'! Can't have it clog up the engine!"

How many features went into the engine for, say, BWO? Or any other project that has since submerged and died? I can't say offhand but I know there have been some. That work is essentially wasted if it's not useful to everyone.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
I don't know, you tell me!
If anything, I think more features have gone to waste because of poor documentation in the wiki than anything else.
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Cyborg17

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
I've thought about saying something about updates on the wiki before, but I feel like there are more important priorities.

Features can also be documented via tutorials.  It might be more productive to not only show how someone how to do something but also to do it with new features at the same time.

For instance, writing a tutorial on the various uses of the AI_profiles table would do just as much, if not more than updating the wiki would and would provide a way for a lesser members of the community to update the wiki themselves.  (although someone needs to know the information first, I suppose)

That's how I found out about bit-editing sexps for variables. (Although that came out in the discussion afterward.)

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Actually, a lot of the arguments with WCS were because of features they wanted that we requested to be implemented in a more generic, useful fashion instead of a very narrow, hackish, and probably retail-breaking manner that they were proposed.  Just some food for thought.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Um no. Some people already don't even put basic documentation on the Wiki, and you want them to instead write a whole tutorial? That seems like a pipe dream. Simple documentation of new features on the Wiki is all that's needed. Anything more than that is bonus.

However, this isn't a thread about Wiki documentation. Nor is it about Nuke being out of touch with the current modding reality at HLP. This here thread is about too many features and not enough bugfixes and optimizations.

My simple two cents is this. If everyone followed the code cycle properly then this would be less of an issue. I'm as much to blame as anyone else on this actually. But I figure if coders straight up didn't work on features during RC and modders stopped asking for features during RC, then we might see more bugs being fixed. We also might not find ourselves lost in a 5 month RC period...

Yes, I know not asking for features during an RC phase seems like a lot to ask, especially for bleeding edge mods looking to push the boundaries further. However,  this is a community project and no one gets paid for it... Gotta be patient do our part in order for a better codebase in the long run. Hopefully I've communicated that clearly considering the time and lack of sleep.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Actually, a lot of the arguments with WCS were because of features they wanted that we requested to be implemented in a more generic, useful fashion instead of a very narrow, hackish, and probably retail-breaking manner that they were proposed.  Just some food for thought.

Exactly. They were pretty much the only mod that did ask for features that only worked for them. I don't think it's a coincidence that the exact feature that Swifty singled out was one of those.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
most of the initial wiki documentation is adequate. sometimes you need to clarify. if a modder finds a description in the wiki vague or insufficient, they should feel free to fix the description. perhaps it would be a good idea for coders to start putting their names on their features in the wiki in cases where documentation is so poor its useless, so that the feature coder(s) can be contacted and the wiki clarified. i put up basic documentation for all my non-scripting features. the scripting features are somewhat self documenting through scripting.html, though i think we need to come up with some better scripting documentation. scripting.html is good for a function reference but really doesnt do much to explain hooks or hook variables and the like. dont need to document lua, or the built in libraries, as there are plenty of tutorials for that. information about how to put the freespace specific libraries to work is somewhat lacking.

im not really a big fan of tutorials. most of the time its 'look what i can do! heres the code! im not gonna tell you how or why it works!'. tutorials are also too specific to a topic. your better of explaining theory of operation, paradigms and conventions with nice little flowcharts explaining how stuff works. explaining basics like timing, working with files (in the engine's context), talking with missions, operating on built-in (userdata) structures, how to write easy to debug code.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Quote
But I figure if coders straight up didn't work on features during RC and modders stopped asking for features during RC, then we might see more bugs being fixed. We also might not find ourselves lost in a 5 month RC period...
Thing is, I don't think a lot of projects care much about RC right now.
JAD 2.21 released without waiting for a .14 final build because it took too long and JAD was already completed by then.
Dimensional Eclipse released without waiting for a .14 final build because the mod requires a build that supports a certain armor.tbl feature that is not included in the RC cycle
WoD2 doesn't work with RC builds because of a few features that are only present in newer builds.
I don't know for sure about Diaspora&BPr2, but I have the vague impression that both of these probably require other builds too.

.12 final fell nicely together with the release of 3 campaigns on the other hand.
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
im not really a big fan of tutorials. most of the time its 'look what i can do! heres the code! im not gonna tell you how or why it works!'. tutorials are also too specific to a topic. your better of explaining theory of operation, paradigms and conventions with nice little flowcharts explaining how stuff works. explaining basics like timing, working with files (in the engine's context), talking with missions, operating on built-in (userdata) structures, how to write easy to debug code.

Yup, Axem's tutorials on his various topics are aweful. People should just look up the documentation on conditional argument sexps instead... I'm sorry Nuke, but sometimes you come off as a negative nancy with all the things you don't like/aren't a fan of/think aren't worth it. My guess is that you probably never looked at Axem's tuts or some of the other tuts around (like mine on Anim creation) in a long, long time. And so once again you might be making grand assumptions about an area of HLP modding that you are too far removed from.

Quote
But I figure if coders straight up didn't work on features during RC and modders stopped asking for features during RC, then we might see more bugs being fixed. We also might not find ourselves lost in a 5 month RC period...
Thing is, I don't think a lot of projects care much about RC right now.
JAD 2.21 released without waiting for a .14 final build because it took too long and JAD was already completed by then.
Dimensional Eclipse released without waiting for a .14 final build because the mod requires a build that supports a certain armor.tbl feature that is not included in the RC cycle
WoD2 doesn't work with RC builds because of a few features that are only present in newer builds.
I don't know for sure about Diaspora&BPr2, but I have the vague impression that both of these probably require other builds too.

.12 final fell nicely together with the release of 3 campaigns on the other hand.

Indeed that is true, but I'm also curious how many features were being added to trunk during the 3.6.12 RC cycle. I'm honestly curious because I can't remember. I also wonder if more mods would have cared about 3.6.14 if the bugs were focused on and RC finished up in a timely fashion like 3.6.12 did.
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Offline Iss Mneur

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Indeed that is true, but I'm also curious how many features were being added to trunk during the 3.6.12 RC cycle. I'm honestly curious because I can't remember. I also wonder if more mods would have cared about 3.6.14 if the bugs were focused on and RC finished up in a timely fashion like 3.6.12 did.
The reason that so many features have been added during the RC cycle is that this RC cycle took far too long.  SCP is currently trying to crack down and get .14 out.  We don't prevent commits to trunk during RC primarily (I assume anyway) because the RC process is not supposed to take more than about 1 month, so trunk doesn't really get much chance to get away from the RC.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Actually we've avoided putting in a lot of 'features' into the RC.  A lot of features have made it into trunk during the RC phase, but a lot of them have been shut out of 3.6.14.
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Offline Iss Mneur

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Actually we've avoided putting in a lot of 'features' into the RC.  A lot of features have made it into trunk during the RC phase, but a lot of them have been shut out of 3.6.14.
I thought that was the point of an RC?  To stop putting features in and shake out the bugs.
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Offline The E

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Which kind of breaks down in the face of RC phases that take several months.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Bug Fixes vs Features - Split from - A few Wings of Dawn 2 requests
Yup, this one is taking longer than I had hoped, as usual.  We've hit quite a few nasty bugs this time around though, probably due in part to the low amount of bugfixing that went on during the feature commit phase.  That's why Goober has been pushing so hard for measures to enforce bugfixing by all members, and why I'm being more and more inclined to agree to some of the ideas we've discussed.  Unless we can get some better ideas.
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redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
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