[General Battuta]

Women are considered to 'deserve' rape if they dress provocatively

While I certainly don't think that they deserve it, I do think there's a certain amount of 'she had it coming' in these cases. In the same way that if you walk on the streets dressed like a doctor, bystanders to an accident scene will very likely come to you to ask for help. Or if you walk into a cage filled with lions, with several pieces of juicy meat strapped to you.
Again, I'm not saying that dressing like a whore means that you *should* be raped. Just in the same way that leaving the door to you house unlocked shouldn't mean that burglars get a free card to strip you of all your possessions. It's all about increasing the risk to yourself. Some things are smart to do and some things are not.

I think the big problem here is that the common wisdom isn't actually true. If you look at the crime stats, there's actually fairly little correlation between 'dressing sexy' and getting raped. This is in no small part because rape is usually perpetrated by people the victim trusts - and so it wouldn't really matter how well prepared they were or how they dressed.

In this example, it's not the accident bystanders who are asking you for help, it's the man who made your doctor outfit -- and it's not the lions who eat you, it's your butcher.

[deathfun]

By the way Bat, I responded earlier to what you said in an edit to a previous post

[FireSpawn]

I believe that rape should carry a heavy and rather permanent sentence.  Like say....a short drop and a quick stop.

[SypheDMar]

This thread is very eye-opening. Thank you Battuta and MP Ryan and everyone that further developed the thread. I've never said rape in a game, but I never thought much about it until now. It's something to think about since having a girlfriend. Yet even if I am not in a relationship, I'd still would have learned something.

EDIT: By far one of the best threads recently.

[Mr. Vega]

As big a problem as any in our civilization is the obsession with punishment and neglect of prevention, mostly because it rarely if ever occurs to us that there are more effective ways to deter behavior than just handing out the worse possible sentence to every perpetrator.

[FireSpawn]

As big a problem as any in our civilization is the obsession with punishment and neglect of prevention, mostly because it rarely if ever occurs to us that there are more effective ways to deter behavior than just handing out the worse possible sentence to every perpetrator.

I believe that fear is a powerful driving force and deterant.

If people see severe and brutal punishments dished out for rape, they come to realise how despicable the act is once they realise that they can't argue that they wouldn't appeal for the same punishment if they, or someone they care for, where the victim.

Frat-boys would soon realise that getting to know a girl, is preferable to slipping one a roofie and than getting shot on live television after the trial.

Edit:
Also, I feel that there is little to do to prevent such an act. It's pretty much forced down our necks that "No" means no, and that "Rape is wrong" due to it being covered in sexual health at school, and by the media.
Isn't rape usually about exerting totall control, rather that sating lust? So surely a punishment that ensures that the perpetrator will never be able to control anything, and knowing that their life will end at the hands of another, would be the most fearsome punishment.

[Mr. Vega]

Thank you for proving my point! How's that drug war going by the way?

[NGTM-1R]

You can debate the intent of the women's choice of clothing, but it is irrelevant. Other people don't get to decide what a short skirt means to her.

I don't actually disagree with this statement, but it now strikes me that perhaps I should. It seems to be fundamentally at odds with MP-Ryan's previous post about the observer's rather than the actor's interpretation being paramount.

Convince me why it's different for visual presentation over verbal.

Then convince me why I can't put up swastikas everywhere and claim they're the Native American good luck symbol and nobody else's opinion matters.

[General Battuta]

oh come on, we were doing good here

[NGTM-1R]

oh come on, we were doing good here

Hey, to hell with you. I find the entire topic and its necessity kind of silly, but that's what you get when you haven't banned Trashman. There's definitely something doublethink about that particular statement, though.

(Hence why I couched it in a general phrase; I'm not advocating anything specific, goddammit.)

[Mr. Vega]

Also, I feel that there is little to do to prevent such an act. It's pretty much forced down our necks that "No" means no, and that "Rape is wrong" due to it being covered in sexual health at school, and by the media.
Isn't rape usually about exerting totall control, rather that sating lust? So surely a punishment that ensures that the perpetrator will never be able to control anything, and knowing that their life will end at the hands of another, would be the most fearsome punishment.

Beliefs are what enable action. In this case, belief that all the girls want it, regardless of what they say.

[Mr. Vega]

You can debate the intent of the women's choice of clothing, but it is irrelevant. Other people don't get to decide what a short skirt means to her.

I don't actually disagree with this statement, but it now strikes me that perhaps I should. It seems to be fundamentally at odds with MP-Ryan's previous post about the observer's rather than the actor's interpretation being paramount.

Convince me why it's different for visual presentation over verbal.

Then convince me why I can't put up swastikas everywhere and claim they're the Native American good luck symbol and nobody else's opinion matters.

It is irrelevant to the point of what she deserves, which is the right to not have sex with the first interested guy.

[MP-Ryan]

I think the big problem here is that the common wisdom isn't actually true. If you look at the crime stats, there's actually fairly little correlation between 'dressing sexy' and getting raped. This is in no small part because rape is usually perpetrated by people the victim trusts - and so it wouldn't really matter how well prepared they were or how they dressed.

I'd go one further and say that this tangent is pointless as I have yet to see any sort of study showing a correlation between dress and sexual assault.  Rapists almost universally say they pick their targets based on the following:
- Means (can I overpower the target)
- Opportunity (can I get away with it)
- Subject attitude (they "looked like a victim")

Interestingly, these criteria also correlate strongly for murderers, particularly cop-killers, showing a heavy link in power dynamics of sexual assault and murder.

[General Battuta]

oh come on, we were doing good here

Hey, to hell with you. I find the entire topic and its necessity kind of silly, but that's what you get when you haven't banned Trashman. There's definitely something doublethink about that particular statement, though.

(Hence why I couched it in a general phrase; I'm not advocating anything specific, goddammit.)

I meant 'doing good' as in 'not having an endless argument about some semantic point and instead providing valuable advice to the young', not 'doing good' as in 'ngtm1r you are a nazi'

The philosophical question is interesting, I guess, but tangential to what I think the best parts of the thread have been about.

[NGTM-1R]

It is irrelevant to the point of what she deserves, which is the right to not have sex with the first interested guy.

Okay. (But mind your wording!)

[Mr. Vega]

I trusted that you were capable of remembering the post that immediately preceded mine and understanding what I was responding to. Obviously I was mistaken in doing so.

[FireSpawn]

Thank you for proving my point! How's that drug war going by the way?

Rather well, thank you very much. The newest ones I've developed are blowing the competion out of the water, and controlling robots installed with the brains of drug lords.

[Titan]

Sorry for starting this (or perhaps not?) with my comment...

By the way, I thought the swastika was a sanskrit symbol, which is interesting, as Aryan refers to people of some Indian-Middle Eastern descent or something if I recall.

[Mr. Vega]

Firespawn, I'm again going to trust that you actually understood what I was getting at before you responded with a joke. Hopefully I'm right this time.

[Mr. Vega]

Also, I feel that there is little to do to prevent such an act. It's pretty much forced down our necks that "No" means no, and that "Rape is wrong" due to it being covered in sexual health at school, and by the media.
Isn't rape usually about exerting totall control, rather that sating lust? So surely a punishment that ensures that the perpetrator will never be able to control anything, and knowing that their life will end at the hands of another, would be the most fearsome punishment.

Beliefs are what enable action. In this case, belief that all the girls want it, regardless of what they say.

And after all, what can change the nature of a man? If there is anything I have learned in my travels across the Planes, it is that many things may change the nature of a man. Whether regret, or love, or revenge or fear - whatever you believe can change the nature of a man, can. I’ve seen belief move cities, make men stave off death, and turn an evil hag's heart half-circle. This entire Fortress has been constructed from belief. Belief damned a woman, whose heart clung to the hope that another loved her when he did not. Once, it made a man seek immortality and achieve it. And it has made a posturing spirit think it is something more than a part of me.

Sorry about that, couldn't help myself.