Author Topic: Rape, and why it's not a good topic  (Read 55910 times)

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Offline watsisname

Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
160 replies in 12 hours.

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic

Using a word like rape casually brands a person as a casual mysogonist, if not worse.
That's a fact. It's part of our culture's and society's norms and conventions which can be measured.

At best, someone throwing around such words is simply inconsiderate/ignorant or too young to know better.
If they do know better and use those words anyways then that implies approval, a lack of empathy, and in the specific case of "rape" a latent dislike towards women.

I disagree. I don't approve the act of raping, but I have used it to describe a severe loss before.
What does that make me then? An exception?

GOD DAMMIT I JUST WANT TO MAKE A POST STOP WARNING ME ABOUT NEW POSTS

No, it means you're probably a young guy in the company of other young guys and you're not really thinking about what you're saying.

It's the same with 'gay' - some day you'll look back and think 'wow...I got very little benefit from those terms, and could've done a fair bit of harm.'

 

Offline FireSpawn

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
"Jewish" is inconsiderate? Bloody anti-semite! I should take my belt off and give you a thrashing.

Unless you like losing your pants it might be advisable to read posts more carefully before taking your belt off :)

I'll have you know that my pants are perfectly able to stay secured to my person without need of a belt. My TROUSERS on the other hand...
Pretty much the same case.   ;7

Okay, I'm done with being a dick and minor annoyance. I shall see how this progresses by tomorrow evening.

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
One point that hasn't been raised so far in this topic is that rape, unlike murder, theft or many other crimes is an unjustifiable crime. There are socially acceptable reasons you can use to justify a murder or theft. I can't think of a single justification that would hold up for why someone knowingly committed a rape.

So despite Trashman's assertions to the contrary, there is a big difference between rape and murder in how they are viewed by people. If you tell someone you were correctly convicted of murder, they'll want to know the circumstances. They'll wonder if the victim in some way deserved it. The same doesn't hold true for a rapist.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
One thing that really interests me about this overall topic is the confluence of the casual usage of "rape" with other terms like "gay" or "retarded."  In the case of the latter two, you have people using terms referring to groups of people in a pejorative sense, usually meaning "stupid."  At least in my view, and I'd think in most other people's, the main point of offense there is that you're associating a group term that should be neutral at worst with something negative...in other words, by doing something like associating "gay" with "stupid," you're (perhaps unintentionally) implying that homosexuals as a whole are also stupid.  Obviously, that's a bad thing.

When it comes to a term like "rape," though, the situation is subtly different.  There, you're using a term that defines a horrifically negative action to describe something else negative...obviously not nearly to the same degree, but in a very exaggerated sense.  In this case, the offense doesn't arise from associating a neutral term with a negative target (since I think any civilized, informed individual would agree that rape is horrible), but with the term itself.  I'm not saying that casual usage of "rape" is any more or less appropriate than those other terms, or that the concerns raised in this thread aren't completely valid, but I think there is a difference at work here, though perhaps an inconsequential one.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
honestly at this point im just posting to mark where i left off. this thread is actually a good read.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
That's an interesting point, Mongoose.

I guess I'd say one of my big problems with casual use of the term 'rape' -- in terms of conflating a huge negative with a small negative -- is that the great challenge we face in combating rape is that it's often trivialized, rationalized, diminished, obfuscated, and written off. Anything which works against the goal of saying 'hey, guys, rape is a huge, half-invisible problem' feels strategically detrimental.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
I'm not saying that casual usage of "rape" is any more or less appropriate than those other terms, or that the concerns raised in this thread aren't completely valid, but I think there is a difference at work here, though perhaps an inconsequential one.

Oh I agree. I think a better example might be misuse of terms like The Holocaust or the Rape of Nanjing.

What would you think of someone who said their team got their butts kicked like Jews in the Holocaust? Your team got killed like Chinese children in Nanjing?

However the comparisons to being called a retard, or Jew are much easier to grasp.
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Offline Sushi

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
Planescape: Torment motha

The funny thing is I guessed that, and I've never even played the game.

 

Offline Beskargam

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
I'm not saying that casual usage of "rape" is any more or less appropriate than those other terms, or that the concerns raised in this thread aren't completely valid, but I think there is a difference at work here, though perhaps an inconsequential one.

Oh I agree. I think a better example might be misuse of terms like The Holocaust or the Rape of Nanjing.

What would you think of someone who said their team got their butts kicked like Jews in the Holocaust? Your team got killed like Chinese children in Nanjing?

However the comparisons to being called a retard, or Jew are much easier to grasp.

err. would you mind explaining that? I am familiar with what both events are. And if anyone described something in either of those two terms, I would be A creeped, B surprised they knew the second, C kinda horrified at the comparison

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
So, are there any hyperboles involving victimization we can use in a... let's call it "mature"... conversation?

Murdered, slaughtered, butchered, cut to pieces, smashed, owned, demolished, decimated, annihilated, obliterated, curbstomped, flattened, rolled over, destroyed, thrashed, dominated, crushed, mutilated, eviscerated, splattered, pasted...

Need I go on?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 09:49:05 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline redsniper

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
dominated...

Hmmmm..... almost, but not quite, going full circle.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
Violated
There's another one
"No"

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
dominated...

Hmmmm..... almost, but not quite, going full circle.
I don't really think "dominated" has anything like the connotations of rape. It doesn't necessarily imply violence and sexual debasement like rape does.

I think a lot of people just don't know how many rape survivors there are. If you know more women than you can count on one hand, one of them has almost certainly experienced it, and may have experienced it more than once. I can tell you from personal experience that you can never know who among your acquaintances may have gone through a sexual assault, and making a rape joke around such a person is basically like taking a butcher knife and stabbing her in the soul.

And that goes double on the internet, since there are (a) a lot more people you are dealing with, and (b) a lot of women who pretend to be men/hide their gender and are assumed to be men due to cultural sexism to avoid being stigmatized, taunted, catcalled, harassed, and stalked by men.

Somewhat tangentially, I find "Don't be 'That Guy'" to be one of the best anti-sexual harassment slogans ever. It really paints people who victimize women as being every bit as nasty as they really are. Nobody wants to be That Guy.

One thing that really interests me about this overall topic is the confluence of the casual usage of "rape" with other terms like "gay" or "retarded."  In the case of the latter two, you have people using terms referring to groups of people in a pejorative sense, usually meaning "stupid."  At least in my view, and I'd think in most other people's, the main point of offense there is that you're associating a group term that should be neutral at worst with something negative...in other words, by doing something like associating "gay" with "stupid," you're (perhaps unintentionally) implying that homosexuals as a whole are also stupid.  Obviously, that's a bad thing.

Too specific, I think. It's really more an implication that homosexuality is disgusting, bad, undesirable in general. "Gay" in this sense doesn't mean "stupid", it's a catch-all pejorative that basically can be used for anything bad.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 11:19:08 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
I don't really think "dominated" has anything like the connotations of rape. It doesn't necessarily imply violence and sexual debasement like rape does.

Yeah, I know.

So, on this topic I've had a question come to mind, and maybe it'll be enlightening for others around here: Why has there been this movement to say rape "survivor" instead of rape "victim?" Sorry if this is a tired old talking point by now, but I honestly didn't get the memo on that one. I don't see why it's bad to be called a victim of a crime when you're, well.... the victim of a crime. We don't really have carjacking survivors, battery survivors, etc. (or do we?) so why is rape set apart like that?

EDIT: Actually, I think I'm already getting it. Carjacking and battery aren't really comparable I suppose, and I'm kind of hard pressed to think of something that is.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 11:29:48 pm by redsniper »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
I think it's basically as simple as the fact that surviving something is seen as positive while being a victim is seen as negative. So when the crime comes with a massive blow to the ego it's better to use a positive term.

Oh I agree. I think a better example might be misuse of terms like The Holocaust or the Rape of Nanjing.

What would you think of someone who said their team got their butts kicked like Jews in the Holocaust? Your team got killed like Chinese children in Nanjing?

However the comparisons to being called a retard, or Jew are much easier to grasp.

err. would you mind explaining that? I am familiar with what both events are. And if anyone described something in either of those two terms, I would be A creeped, B surprised they knew the second, C kinda horrified at the comparison

I'm not certain what needs explaining. Mongoose was saying that comparing saying "My team got raped in that game" to "That idea is gay" or "I got Jewed in that deal" isn't a good comparison because the latter two are pejorative in their meaning. So I was giving an analogy which is much closer. Simply substituting one horrific event for another one.

I find it ironic that Trashman had no problem with saying his team got raped. I do kinda wonder if as a Croatian, he'd have an issue with saying he got Ethnically Cleansed. 
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
I don't know, I didn't get a formal memo either. But I'd guess it's because individuals who have come through a rape already feel like they're ****ed up, ruined, worthless -- in a word, victimized. It feels a lot better to be a survivor, like you've beaten a natural disaster or something, than to be a victim, like you've been conned or noted down as a statistic.

e: beaten so hard

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
I can sort of understand that. I'm still not really sold on it, but if that's the term they want to use, then it's their call of course.

Makes me think of "little people" versus "dwarfs" actually. In my mind, if you've got a form of dwarfism, you're a dwarf and it's just a neutral term. Whereas little people sounds condescending. Maybe they don't like being associated with mythical non-human creatures...
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
he'd have an issue with saying he got Ethnically Cleansed. 

i got to use that one on bnet now. :D
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Re: Rape, and why it's not a good topic
There is a point I wanted to make in this thread. Trashman said something about that rape could not be worse then murder.

The thing is, if I got raped, I'd probably have problems with that later on.
If I get murdered, I won't. Because I am dead. I won't even have to worry about anything at all.

Therefore, getting murdered is actually the best thing that can happen to you.

What about your faimily?

My family will remember me for the life I lead and mourn it's untimely end.
If I get raped, my family will mourn that I will never be able to live the life I could have lived.

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Or what if you go to hell? You just got cheated out of X more years of life!

There is no hell. Period. It just ends.
If I get raped, I'd probably get traumatized. Many people who are traumatized commit suicide. If rape is better then murder, why would the people who got raped then murder themselves? Masochism?

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Or..what about torture? Since it can include inserting object in places you dont' want them to be? and it can last for days, weeks? It can break you 100 tiems worse than any rape ever could.
Rape is a form of torture, often conducted because the person doing it enjoys making others suffer for his own pleasures.

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Does that mean we shoudl never use phrases like "When's the next patch? This is pure torture!" ..because.. you know..lot's of soldiers in the world. I bet some survied torture and use internet.

Indeed, you should not.