[StarSlayer]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the training regimen Air Marshalls supposedly have but the only person I'd want armed is someone who is a veteran of some type of SWAT/TPF/SOU and is still training on a regular basis.

Besides the air crew has a fire axe.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the training regimen Air Marshalls supposedly have but the only person I'd want armed is someone who is a veteran of some type of SWAT/TPF/SOU and is still training on a regular basis.

Besides the air crew has a fire axe.

In the event of a hijacking situation, you can rely on your onboard SWAT veteran to shoot your dog

[StarSlayer]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the training regimen Air Marshalls supposedly have but the only person I'd want armed is someone who is a veteran of some type of SWAT/TPF/SOU and is still training on a regular basis.

Besides the air crew has a fire axe.

In the event of a hijacking situation, you can rely on your onboard SWAT veteran to shoot your dog

Which one?

[General Battuta]

In the event of a hijacking situation, you can rely on your onboard SWAT veteran to shoot your dog

Which one?

This is an exercise in point shooting and combat reflexes. You must rapidly and accurately select the suspect canine from the following lineup of dogs. Ready? Go!

[StarSlayer]

The middle one.

[General Battuta]

Congratulations, pilot! You have successfully completed TSM-TSA-CN1: Din't Shoot Snoop Dogg. Please do not be alarmed by the possibility of a fatal mishap; Mr. Broadus is performing here today as a hologram

[StarSlayer]

[Nuke]

Uh, actually, that one's been mythbusted.  Shooting a hole in the plane does not result in explosive decompression.

Hell, planes have survived incidents in the air that left most of the upper fuselage missing and still landed without further incident.

So.... no, that's not why guns aren't allowed.  Nor will special training allow you to magically not do damage to the plane.

I wasn't referring to "explosive decompression" (I know it was busted, and that it couldn't happen anyway). At high altitudes, sudden decompression could cause the crew to pass out from the lack of oxygen (though they do have masks to prevent that) and destabilize the plane. Of course, at lower altitudes, holes in the plane are less problematic, but airliners don't spend too much time flying low. Maybe I did a little overstatement by mentioning a crash, but the effects won't be good (nor cheap) and the plane won't be able to continue flight (it'd most likely land at the nearest airfield). And while special training wouldn't magically prevent you from damaging the plane, it'd reduce your chances of doing so to acceptable level.

id be more worried about hitting something else, like fuel, an engine or the pilots. other things that can **** you up, the apu, fuel lines, hydraulic lines, avionics, etc. the rate of decompression through a small bullet hole probibly wouldn't be very fast. there was a thing about it on atomic rockets on how to calculate the rate of decompression.

as for crew arming id limit them to tazers only, however there is ammunition which can be leathal to non-armored individuals but is not capable of damaging the aircraft, the rounds just break up on contact with a non-soft target. they will go through meat but not even get through drywall. i forget what they call them but they are often used in places where you dont want to do any collateral damage or accidentally kill people in other rooms with missed rounds. such weapons would only be issued to those with advanced combat training, where tazers and stunguns would be made available to crew who opt for emergency combat training. however using a leathal weapon in a "can of monkeys" sounds like a good way to kill a bunch of monkeys that get in the way.

[NGTM-1R]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the training regimen Air Marshalls supposedly have

It's actually not just the Air Marshals, pretty much anybody in Federal law enforcement can take a class and get certified. It's apparently very boring.

[jr2]

As far as decompression goes, it doesn't, unless the rate of decompression exceeds that aircraft's capacity to pressurize itself (IIRC, fresh air is fed either by the engines or an APU into the cabin, and air is released at the same rate, and if there is a leak, well, it compensates, up to a certain amount, which, I imagine, varies by aircraft design).

I do remember flying on a trans-atlantic flight and noticing that there was air leaking from around the seal on one of the doors. (As in, you could put your hand by it and feel the breeze.) I pointed it out to the flight attendant, who told me it was no big deal.

pre-EDIT: OK, I just checked, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization#Mechanics_of_pressurization

EDIT:

Pressurization is achieved by the design of an airtight fuselage engineered to be pressurized with a source of compressed air and controlled by an environmental control system (ECS). The most common source of compressed air for pressurization is bleed air extracted from the compressor stage of a gas turbine engine, from a low or intermediate stage and also from an additional high stage, the exact stage can vary, depending on engine type. By the time the cold outside air has reached the bleed air valves it is at a very high pressure and has been heated to around 200 °C (392 °F). The control and selection of high or low bleed sources is fully automatic and is governed by the needs of various pneumatic systems at various stages of flight.[12]

The part of the bleed air that is directed to the ECS, is then expanded and cooled to a suitable temperature by passing it through a heat exchanger and air cycle machine known as the packs system. In some of the larger airliners hot trim air can be added downstream of air conditioned air coming from the packs if it is needed to warm a section of the cabin that is colder than others.

At least two engines provide compressed bleed air for all of the plane's pneumatic systems, to provide full redundancy. Compressed air is also obtained from the auxiliary power unit (APU), if fitted, in the event of an emergency and for cabin air supply on the ground before the main engines are started. Most modern commercial aircraft today have fully redundant, duplicated electronic controllers for maintaining pressurization along with a manual back-up control system.

All exhaust air is dumped to atmosphere via an outflow valve, usually at the rear of the fuselage. This valve controls the cabin pressure and also acts as a safety relief valve, in addition to other safety relief valves. In the event that the automatic pressure controllers fail, the pilot can manually control the cabin pressure valve, according to the backup emergency procedure checklist. The automatic controller normally maintains the proper cabin pressure altitude by constantly adjusting the outflow valve position so that the cabin altitude is as low as practical without exceeding the maximum pressure differential limit on the fuselage, which varies between different aircraft types but is normally around 8.6 psi. At 39,000 feet, the cabin pressure would be automatically maintained at about 6,900 ft (450 feet lower than Mexico City), which is about 11.5 psi of atmosphere pressure (79.3 kPa).[12]

Some aircraft, such as the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, have re-introduced the use of electric compressors previously used on piston-engined airliners to provide pressurization.[13] The use of electric compressors increases the electrical generation load on the engines and introduces a number of stages of energy transfer, therefore it is unclear whether this increases the overall efficiency of the aircraft air handling system. It does, however, remove the danger of chemical contamination of the cabin, simplifies engine design, avoids the need to run high pressure pipework around the aircraft and provides greater design flexibility.

FYI, the APU on an aircraft is usually a small jet turbine.

[Nuke]

so i looked it up and found this:

How long will it take a spacecraft to decompress?

it gives you the math to determine the rate of decompression for a spacecraft, decompression in an atmosphere is similar, so youd probibly have to subtract outside pressure from inside pressure before computing. it requires calculus, so im not going to pretend i completely understand it.

FYI, the APU on an aircraft is usually a small jet turbine.

thats the usual type of engine used in an apu, but the apu is the aircraft's power supply. it provides hydraulic pressure, pneumatic pressure, electricity, to name a few things.

[jr2]

Assuming you knock out both engines used for air supply to the cabin, the APU, and any other backup system, that would allow you to compute how long it would take, sure..

[Nuke]

Assuming you knock out both engines used for air supply to the cabin, the APU, and any other backup system, that would allow you to compute how long it would take, sure..

heres the thing, if the rate of decompression is greater aircraft's systems capacity to repressurize, then you will lose pressure, otherwise you can maintain. the rate of re pressurization is likely really high, it has to keep up with the loss of outside air pressure as the aircraft climbs. your going to need to get pretty crazy with that gun to cause any critical damage though (and probibly need a ****ing assault rifle and/or knowledge of where all the critical stuff is).

[jr2]

Yeah, and for a spacecraft, take into account the repressurization from on-board O2 supplies.  Without knowing re-pressurization rate, you can't tell depressurization rate.  Err... you know what I mean.

[Nuke]

everything you said sounds about right. post frenzy, lol.

[Flaser]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the training regimen Air Marshalls supposedly have but the only person I'd want armed is someone who is a veteran of some type of SWAT/TPF/SOU and is still training on a regular basis.

Besides the air crew has a fire axe.

Before the corporate meddlers took over the program, most air marshals were actually *that* kind of people, and the program had the most technically demanding small arms requirements of all the armed services in the USA.

The bureaucrats running the TSA and taking over the program didn't like that since it was hard to recruit, people with that kind of skill are rare... so they simply dropped the requirements.

http://youtu.be/r_VPVSNq5ek

[Mikes]

heres the thing, if the rate of decompression is greater aircraft's systems capacity to repressurize, then you will lose pressure, otherwise you can maintain. the rate of re pressurization is likely really high, it has to keep up with the loss of outside air pressure as the aircraft climbs. your going to need to get pretty crazy with that gun to cause any critical damage though...

... but, but, but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHXevnoAciY 

[BengalTiger]

Not to mention what a troll with a gun could do.

This would be just as common as rolling through a red light to troll an 18 wheel semi truck- i.e. nobody would ever do it.

Another thing is that getting a CCW does require to take and complete classes and a background check, so the real idiots will most likely get filtered out anyway.

i forget what they call them but they are often used in places where you dont want to do any collateral damage or accidentally kill people in other rooms with missed rounds.

Frangible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqH177kJ7kg

[Nuke]

^yep thats the stuff.

[MP-Ryan]

Not to mention what a troll with a gun could do.

This would be just as common as rolling through a red light to troll an 18 wheel semi truck- i.e. nobody would ever do it.

Another thing is that getting a CCW does require to take and complete classes and a background check, so the real idiots will most likely get filtered out anyway.

A CCW does not prepare you to be in a fight.  A CCW does not prepare you to shoot a person, which is actually a small target when the adrenaline is flowing and you no longer have fine motor skills.  Even advanced firearms courses don't really do that.

There is a reason why you frequently hear of many more shots fire in a police shooting incident than actually ever hit their target.  It's not because the officers are bad shots; far from it.  It's because people's abilities deteriorate to their worst day of training when they enter a high-stress scenario.  Cortisol and adrenaline do ****ty things.

Now, combine the mentality required to actually shoot a person, the skill and training required to actually hit with every shot, and the knowledge required to know when and how it's appropriate to engage and escalate to firearm use, and there is a VERY good cluster of reasons why civilians never should and never will be allowed to carry any sort of weapon, nevermind a handgun, on a commercial aircraft.

A couple weeks ago I was doing my annual defensive tactics recertification for work, a number of the instructors for which are active-duty tactical officers on various teams around British Columbia, and one day we got a very useful lecture on "surviving a critical incident" from a tactical officer who was shot at multiple times in close quarters, and was ultimately able to disengage before firing upon (and ultimately killing) the gang member in question.  I asked him afterwards, because this occurred in public, if in hindsight he had any feelings on the civilian bystanders who called 911 but did not physically intervene - he said he preferred that they stay out of it because they could honestly have been more of a liability than assistance.  This tactical officer fired at the subject from 25 feet away and hit him three times out of four bullets.  But cortisol and adrenaline are funny things - he swears to this day that he fired only three shots and has no recollection of the fourth whatsoever, despite having watched the CCTV footage later.  That's a tactical officer with 15+ years experience on a tactical team.

The only people carrying weapons in aircraft should be law enforcement with specific and advanced training completed in order to do so.  Anyone else is just a terrifying thought all around.