[NGTM-1R]

Imagine the reaction of the West if the Muslim world had a "Draw Jesus taking a ****" day.

Meh?

[Flipside]

Thing is, the whole reason people in these countries burn American flags is because they know it annoys people, if no-one cared, they wouldn't do it. Something like this is precisely the same mentality, there's no moral high-ground here whatsoever.

People may argue that Pakistan banning Twitter is a violation of human rights, but where lays the origin of that violation? There would be riots in a Muslim country over a day like this, people know that, in fact, it's a large percentage of the reason it exists, it doesn't strike me as very noble to say 'You're violating human rights by not letting us piss off most of your population and cause public unrest'.

The source of that censorship is a joint mixture of the Pakistani government and the people creating the drawings. In the UK we jail people for encouraging rioting over Twitter or Facebook, now, you may consider that 'wrong', but why the double standards? Why is encouraging rioting in your own country criminal, yet encouraging rioting in someone else's country considered "Freedom of Speech"?

[redsniper]

Well, it's not Draw Mohammed Taking **** Day, it's just Draw Mohammed Day. The point sort of being that getting as outraged over ANY portrayal of your prophet as some people would only get over a portrayal of their prophet defecating, is ridiculous.

[AtomicClucker]

It's one thing to say "Freedom of Speech," and just dealing with ol' plain sensible.

While the original purpose may have been to challenge conventions of how religious ideas are seen and what values they hold, it pretty much went to hell with both the participants and the outrage against it.

Due to my love of art history, I could take a long winded speech to talk about "this is not a pipe," while a little applicable, it just goes to show that the idea of the religious figure is sacred to that particular culture, good or bad.

But I can be honest and say that the entire movement for "Draw Mohammed Day!" went from being a protest to a farce.

[Flipside]

Thing is with regards to drawing Jesus is that there are no explicit instructions not to do so. Jesus has been cropping up in images for thousands of years.

Now, the truth of the matter is that there are Islamic texts with drawings of Mohammed in them, there are far less inflammatory ways of approaching the situation, but as long as we allow ourselves to get caught in a cycle of escalation of aggression and abuse, where we are doing things not because we believe we are 'right' but because we believe we are insulting people, there is no way out whatsoever, it will simply get more and more confrontational until something snaps.

[karajorma]

Well, it's not Draw Mohammed Taking **** Day, it's just Draw Mohammed Day.

Do you honestly believe that there won't be a substantial minority (if not majority) of people who take part in this who won't draw something more offensive than a simple portrait picture? 

[yuezhi]

Imagine the reaction of the West if the Muslim world had a "Draw Jesus taking a ****" day.

doubt that would happen because it's sure to piss them off as much.

[Bobboau]

If you think my annoyance is one-way then you are sorely mistaken, I stopped going to any kind of Church, not because I'm not spiritual, but because Church became more and more polarised in its opinions of other cultures and people.

ah, so Christianity is the only religion that we should criticize.

Do you genuinely think that every...

not going to even read the rest of the paragraph before responding, I'll see how well I did after typing it up.

I like how you assume I'm viewing the Muslim community as a monolithic whole, in spite of the fact that I have said exactly which subset of that community I am referring to at least more than once, lets see how many times I did that.

if they are offended they are free to *****, I imagine most won't on either count.

person who would be offended by a drawing

those who would fly into a homicidal rage

ass hole idiot

and that is from just two substantive posts. I like how you assumed I had a bigoted position and ignored evidence that contradicted your preconception.
you see that is the beauty of this protest. it only hits those who need to be hit, the people who cannot stand it when non-muslums don't follow muslim rules. all of the chill muslims would be like 'ok. fine. knock yourself out. here you can even barrow my pencil because I'm done drawing the picture of all the ****s I give'.

now let me see if anything else in that paragraph will make me have to eat any of those words...

...Muslim in the world has fundamental beliefs? Do you honestly think that anyone who would take offence at images of Mohammed wanted to overthrow the West. It's things like this that generate the cultural wall between even moderate Muslims and other cultures in the West, because whether you agree with fundamentalism or not, something like 'Draw Mohammed Day' is going to an offensive and hurtful thing, not because of what it says in the Koran, but because the images are being made because they are forbidden.

hmmm... nope. though I will add, 'they are forbidden' for muslims. of which I am not one and therefor the forbid...ment prohibition does not apply to me. Though I will extend an especially warm welcome any muslim who is awesome enough to see how that is a bull**** rule and ignore it like most christians do with most rules in their book and join in on the art project.

That's the difference that people seem to ignore, this isn't someone expressing Freedom of Speech that may have the side effect of offending certain people, it's someone expressing Freedom of Speech designed to insult and anger its target, be they moderate, passive, extreme or undecided, and it's mostly for the 'thrill' of watching them get annoyed at it.

yes, it is expressly intended to insult and anger, as well as mock, the subset of muslims who cannot cope with the idea of humans existing on this planet who are not subject to their religious laws. personally I think that subset deserves all the grief it gets after the way it has acted.

The point of that video is to highlight the fact that we're all stuck here together, and the worst way of solving the problem is to poke an entire culture with a stick and then wonder why they are annoyed.

yes, we are stuck here. and I for one will not be stuck on a planet with a bunch of humorless assholes who are going to throw a violent tantrum every time they don't get what they want, I refuse to tolerate that kind of behavior. I will call such persons on it and I will do the opposite of what they want and laugh as they impotently flail about on the floor crying because I like things they don't like. like all emotionally stunted persons they will eventually learn to get the **** over it or try to kill me and end up in jail making their compatriots look worse in the process.

and on a related note, to all:
I hereby proclaim I will suck a dick, just to piss off Fred Phelps. seriously, just give me like a two day notice and tell me where in the NYC area he will be present and you get a free blow job. I'm serious, I will do this if you call me on it.

[Bobboau]

Warning - while you were typing 9 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.


and you thought there was not 'point' or 'debate' in this thread.

[Bobboau]

Imagine the reaction of the West if the Muslim world had a "Draw Jesus taking a ****" day.

fund it! make it happen!
your problem is you have made an overly complex requirement, so I doubt it will catch on, try something offensive but easily drawn, see if you can make an ASCII art depiction.

Thing is, the whole reason people in these countries burn American flags is because they know it annoys people

except, it' doesn't really bother us that much. we DON'T really care. the most they get out of us is " whatever..."

The source of that censorship is a joint mixture of the Pakistani government and the people creating the drawings. In the UK we jail people for encouraging rioting over Twitter or Facebook, now, you may consider that 'wrong', but why the double standards? Why is encouraging rioting in your own country criminal, yet encouraging rioting in someone else's country considered "Freedom of Speech"?

no muslims in my country? and I don't think flaunting your countries deteriorating standards for personal liberty is really the right position to take here.

[Bobboau]

BTW, relevant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Virgin_Mary

[AtomicClucker]

ah, so Christianity is the only religion that we should criticize.

And would you be offended if I started to depict controversial pictures of atheists swinging reason and science like a cheap two cent whore?

Personally, such a measure is both in-adequate, and, a waste of time.

Attempting to attack an idea in the sense is both futile and stupid. Rather than finding specific elements, such as social issues such as gender or social gaps between Muslims, or even racial prejudices of Saudis against Muslims of East Asian origins, etc this a such a broad topic you might as well aim to hit the entirety of the universe. Criticism best works when concentrated and tactfully deployed, not a shotgun.

[Bobboau]

I would actually find that quite funny, actually, I'm going to check rule34 right now and see if Dawkins exists.
[edit]surprisingly, only one. but it does involve bestiality with a Parasaurolophus[/edit]

yes, as I mentioned this is quite precise, people should be able to say or write or make any expressive work. no one is making you look at it. and even if they were they can't make you pay attention.

[Flipside]

As I said in my post, the idea of jailing someone for inciting a riot may be considered 'wrong' by some people, I did not state a personal opinion on the matter, but that doesn't change the fact that posting deliberately inflammatory commentary in both the UK and the US is becoming harder and harder, and yet stuff like this is fine, which is a double standard.

Secondly, with regards to the American flag, the most they get out of you is , but you know as well as I do that there are people in your country who take the matter far more personally.

With regards to the 'point' of this thread, once again, it was a picture of a stick man, the whole reason I initiated this debate was because there needed to be more to it than that.

Next, you are not stuck on a planet with 'humorless assholes', you are stuck on a planet with people who take their religion far more seriously than you do, this isn't about what is 'right' or 'wrong', it's about what 'is' and how you deal with it. Once again, poking them with a stick is not the answer. Yes, there are Muslims in your own country, and no doubt many of them took offence at the actions of those who drew Mohammed, but they won't say anything about it because of the repercussions, because American Freedom of Speech is not as 'Free' as it likes to believe, criticizing minorities, such as Gays, girls who have abortions, Atheists or Muslims is fine, but there is genuine danger in criticizing majorities particularly in certain areas of the US.

The fact is, whether you view the Muslim community as a Monolithic whole or not, the pictures are designed and intended to insult all Muslims, it's just that some keep quiet about it because they know what the outcome of speaking out about it will be, which is just more trolling. As I've repeatedly said, it is not simply the images that are offensive, it's the reason behind creating them.

As far as Christianity is concerned, there are reasons for criticism, certainly, just as their are for Islam, but there's a difference between criticism and abuse. Christianity supports things that I don't agree with, and I'll readily say so, so does Islam, but this isn't about criticism is it? It's about abuse and insults which are specifically designed to be as such. I don't like that when targetted at Christians or Muslims.

[AtomicClucker]

I would actually find that quite funny, actually, I'm going to check rule34 right now and see if Dawkins exists.

yes, as I mentioned this is quite precise, people should be able to say or write or make any expressive work. no one is making you look at it. and even if they were they can't make you pay attention.

It doesn't change the fact, as someone who deals with the visual medium, this approach is piss-poor when it comes to any form of artistic merit and criticism. Unless someone can actually show a substantial demonstration of skill and thought-provocation like the infamous Fountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_mutt it just goes to show the entire movement was built on shoddy stilts, and wouldn't stand if someone sneezed at it. Rather, it is a bland repetition of an already explored and rehashed discussion over whether the art is the idea or separate from it.

[Bobboau]

there are people in your country who take the matter far more personally.

I doubt there are many that care particularly when some foreigner does it in some foreign land, it's mostly when an american does it that pisses these people off. and again they can just be pissed of.

With regards to the 'point' of this thread, once again, it was a picture of a stick man, the whole reason I initiated this debate was because there needed to be more to it than that.

Next, you are not stuck on a planet with 'humorless assholes', you are stuck on a planet with people who take their religion far more seriously than you do, this isn't about what is 'right' or 'wrong', it's about what 'is' and how you deal with it. Once again, poking them with a stick is not the answer. Yes, there are Muslims in your own country, and no doubt many of them took offence at the actions of those who drew Mohammed, but they won't say anything about it because of the repercussions, because American Freedom of Speech is not as 'Free' as it likes to believe, criticizing minorities, such as Gays, girls who have abortions, Atheists or Muslims is fine, but there is genuine danger in criticizing majorities particularly in certain areas of the US.

The fact is, whether you view the Muslim community as a Monolithic whole or not, the pictures are designed and intended to insult all Muslims

I'm going to just stop you right here, no it's not, it's intended to insult and ridicule those who fly into a rage when a non-muslim decides to do something forbidden to a muslim. it IS intended to be an act of defiance and an expression of free speech, a message that we cannot be silenced with threats it only makes us louder.

ok, you can go on...

it's just that some keep quiet about it because they know what the outcome of speaking out about it will be, which is just more trolling. As I've repeatedly said, it is not simply the images that are offensive, it's the reason behind creating them.

As far as Christianity is concerned, there are reasons for criticism, certainly, just as their are for Islam, but there's a difference between criticism and abuse. Christianity supports things that I don't agree with, and I'll readily say so, so does Islam, but this isn't about criticism is it?

yes it is.

It's about abuse and insults which are specifically designed to be as such. I don't like that when targetted at Christians or Muslims.

yes, in so much as it is ridicule. ridicule of those who cannot stand someone else liking what they don't like. ridicule is criticism - respect, I do not respect these people.

and because I know you are going to try and take advantage of my brazen use of pronouns, let me show you a picture of 'those people' of which I speak

and you know, actually I don't mind the signs and the marching and the chanting, it's the killing and assaults and property damage that I am particularly targetted at, so this isn't really an accurate picture of what I'm talking about, but I hope you get my point.

[yuezhi]

pic looks familiar... oh right, it's interchangeable with the koran burning gathering in florida. now that was how you're suppose to play chicken.

[Flipside]

And so emulating their attitude is the only possible response? They say insulting things to us, so the very best response we can come up with is to say insulting things to them?

Sink to the same level if you wish, because this is, regardless of your claims to the opposite, absolutely and undeniably about doing something that will insult people of a specific denomination, that's the whole point of the pictures. They were created in response to outrage from a relatively small number of people over the original 'Mohammed Cartoons', and in doing so, a minor, misinformed group has been encouraged and supported by the belligerence of others. This entire 'Image of Mohammed' issue would have been long, long over had it not been for the yearly regurgitation of this day and with each iteration, it creates more distrust and feelings of being insulted from the Muslim community as it becomes less a statement and more simply a case of trolling each year.

[Bobboau]

It doesn't change the fact, as someone who deals with the visual medium, this approach is piss-poor when it comes to any form of artistic merit and criticism. Unless someone can actually show a substantial demonstration of skill and thought-provocation like the infamous Fountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_mutt it just goes to show the entire movement was built on shoddy stilts, and wouldn't stand if someone sneezed at it. Rather, it is a bland repetition of an already explored and rehashed discussion over whether the art is the idea or separate from it.

ok, the point of the whole thing is that the most tame, most innocuous image of Mohamed is (as of some time around 2004) supposedly justification of murder.
typing:
0\-<
now I have a death sentence on my head.

[NGTM-1R]

And so emulating their attitude is the only possible response? They say insulting things to us, so the very best response we can come up with is to say insulting things to them?

What is insulting about a depiction of a man in ASCII art, lying on his side?

I mean, unless you actually say it's Muhammed, it could be anyone. Even if you do say it's Muhammed, it could still be anyone.