Author Topic: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)  (Read 31249 times)

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Offline jr2

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
Ooh, nice pie charts.  Now make each slice of the pie a pie chart, and each slice of those a pie chart (c'mon, they're spending the money, they might better know where it's going) ... what's all of this?  Health Care > Public Health Services > Consumer and occupational health and safety (554) > Now we have 7 entries labelled "Salaries and Expenses", described as "discretionary" (I bet!) "non-grant", and "on-budget" and no more details.  Huh...

If Paul Ryan did that, well, good for him, then he sucks.  Atheists can be right too.  (Speaking as someone who is not an atheist, and thinks atheists are wrong, in that respect.)  I don't know where anyone gets off saying that a person's entire contribution(s) to society are unwanted / incorrect, just because you believe (and could very well be 100% correct) that ONE of their beliefs are wrong, or even MULTIPLE beliefs they hold are wrong.  It's not a chain of beliefs, it's a network.  Maybe one of the chains in the belief system affects the others in the network, maybe not.  Regardless, it doesn't affect the truth.  That'd be like a discovery made by a YEC (*waves hand and then dodges the shotgun pellets*) being dismissed, when it does not necessarily have anything to do with YEC, just because you disagree with his beliefs on YEC, and therefore, everything he/she comes up with must be false. 

wtf

Yes, government has services they need to provide.  However, I'd like to question the government's 'representation' of the public in this matter.  Kinda convenient, when politicians, who end up controlling / benefiting from the policies they implement (special interest projects back home in their election district) just so happen to enact policies that require large amounts of money / resources.  Seems like a good ol boy network, where everyone's doing it, but no one will hold their own representatives accountable, because "handouts pl0x, kk u have my vote, you my h33r0!"  That goes for the welfare bum who decided working was for losers and the millionaire who only wants to pay 3% tax.  No free lunch, either of the two!

I don't mean to come off as sounding extreme (stfu, I know what you are thinking now, you n00b), {{EDIT: that was directed at anyone dismissing what I'm saying because they think that I'm being extreme, without actually pausing to consider how much has merit, just to clarify}} however, there needs to be balance.  The reason trickle-down doesn't work is because the government is at every pool in that river, where the surplus collects, draining as they see fit, supposedly for the benefit of the poor / needy / infrastructure / yadayada.  {{EDIT: From the top, with the suppliers and their entire copy of the following chain, to the stockholders, to the corporation, to the distributors, to the consumers}}


I'm kind of on the fence with the whole "value" of the rich.  Yeah they don't really work that much, but, working is not just about manual labor.  It's about sound decisions, managing risk vs. potential in investments, managing people well, and hopefully, investing in your team, from the management through the laborer.  (Yes I know some CEOs would rather just have a bunch of slaves, however...)

So, you can, through smart application of your team and resources, indeed, accomplish many times what one person could... but not that much.

Ha!  I have it!  For a billionaire, tax the 10% of income that he makes as that income, and divide the rest of it tax-free among the other employees of the company.  j/k, that's just a random thought and wouldn't work.

OK, here's a thought:  Let's say you own some property.  Let's say you're really good with robotics, and you create a factory, that requires minimal staffing (let's say yourself and a team of 10 engineers).  Now let's say that you begin producing, I dunno, semi-conductors at this factory, cheaper than anyone else can.  You spent your money, hired your employees to do this work.  Now let's say you're rivaling Intel et al... You hire a manager to take care of the factory, and basically are set for life, not having to do anything but provide guidance to your company from time to time.  How much of your income is the government entitled to?  All of it, riiiiight?  You don't do any work any more.  Based on the logic displayed above, you get nothing and the government keeps it all.  Or, perhaps they should give you a minimum-wage 40-hour x 52 week portion of it, just for the idea.

Somewhere in here is the correct answer.

In the situation above, if the government is taking 90% of your income, and (insert % here) of the company's revenue, how are you supposed to react when you have a bright idea that couldn't be implemented before, because it would have required $billions in investment capital?

Ayn Rand, no, no, just struck by the audacity of it all.  Government is as bad as the companies that don't pay their employees what they are worth because no one else does, so they can get away with it and keep the profit.


Oh, and the date wasn't altered on purpose, that was me doing multiple edits and fat-fingering it somewhere.  Glad it made an impression, though.  :yes:  :rolleyes:


As for the glass ceiling.. well, that's kind of up to your ingenuity.  Although I do realize that the top tier won't necessarily be encouraging (some of them won't).  e.g., Tucker Car vs the Big Three, etc.  Honestly I'd be happy to just be paid what I'm worth, rewarded for hard work and inventive solutions, and not expected to pay more than my fair share to the public coffers (FWIW {{not much on an internet forum, I know}}, at this point, I'd qualify for handouts, except the social services department says I'm not qualified according to their refusal letter, as I supposedly make in a month on my own what my wife and I can't make together in that time... guess it's cause we actually work for a living, based on all the people we see on handouts of different types that don't work and haven't for 5+ years).  Actually, I think they went back to January, took what I make on my two weeks' Annual Training in the Reserves in that month, added it to what I make in my regular job, and applied it to the entire year, just 'cause they're cool like that.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:09:05 pm by jr2 »

 

Offline The E

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
Yeeeeeeaaah, nothing to do here.

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That'd be like a discovery made by a YEC (*waves hand and then dodges the shotgun pellets*) being dismissed

Holding YEC beliefs is generally not consistent with adherence to proper scientific protocol. At the very least, it is an indication for a severe blind spot in the YEC's critical thinking capability.

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However, I'd like to question the government's 'representation' of the public in this matter.  Kinda convenient, when politicians, who end up controlling / benefiting from the policies they implement (special interest projects back home in their election district) just so happen to enact policies that require large amounts of money / resources.  Seems like a good ol boy network, where everyone's doing it, but no one will hold their own representatives accountable, because "handouts pl0x, kk u have my vote, you my h33r0!"  That goes for the welfare bum who decided working was for losers and the millionaire who only wants to pay 3% tax.  No free lunch, either of the two!

Okay, so you're saying that democratic governments don't work because the people elected into position are partially partisan? Or that charismatic dirtbags can get themselves elected?
Newsflash, we are humans. That's how it has always been, and that's how it's going to be in the foreseeable future. We somehow still manage to muddle along.

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I don't mean to come off as sounding extreme

Too late for that, I'm afraid.

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The reason trickle-down doesn't work is because the government is at every pool in that river, where the surplus collects, draining as they see fit, supposedly for the benefit of the poor / needy / infrastructure / yadayada.

lolno. The reason why trickle-down does not work is because there is nothing trickling down. For all practical intents and purposes, once money has reached the coffers of the "1%", it exhibits a remarkable tendency to stay there.

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Yeah they don't really work that much, but, working is not just about manual labor.  It's about sound decisions, managing risk vs. potential in investments, managing people well, and hopefully, investing in your team, from the management through the laborer.  (Yes I know some CEOs would rather just have a bunch of slaves, however...)

Noone is arguing that a high-level executive's workload is the same as someone who stacks the shelves at the local supermarket. But, here's the thing, does the changed scope of the work justify an increase in wage by several thousand percent? Some increase is justified, certainly, due to said scope, and due to the expectation for high-level executives to be always on-call, but is the stratospheric gap we're seeing at the moment really an accurate representation of the differing levels of qualification needed for the job?

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OK, here's a thought:  Let's say you own some property.  Let's say you're really good with robotics, and you create a factory, that requires minimal staffing (let's say yourself and a team of 10 engineers).  Now let's say that you begin producing, I dunno, semi-conductors at this factory, cheaper than anyone else can.  You spent your money, hired your employees to do this work.  Now let's say you're rivaling Intel et al... You hire a manager to take care of the factory, and basically are set for life, not having to do anything but provide guidance to your company from time to time.  How much of your income is the government entitled to?  All of it, riiiiight?  You don't do any work any more.  Based on the logic displayed above, you get nothing and the government keeps it all.  Or, perhaps they should give you a minimum-wage 40-hour x 52 week portion of it, just for the idea.

What. The. ****. Did I just read. You have a basic misunderstanding of the role a company CEO or Chairman of the Board has. They don't just sit back and occasionally release edicts from on-high. Running a company the size of Intel, even at the very high abstraction level at the top, is a fulltime job.
And no, there is no logic in saying "he doesn't work, he needs to pay all his income to the state", because a) that person would very definitely do work and b) noone in their right mind is seriously arguing for a 100% tay rate.

I think I detect a vague hint of communistophobia here (A phobia widely spread amongst those who think that "paying taxes" is just a moniker for "being robbed").

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In the situation above, if the government is taking 90% of your income, and (insert % here) of the company's revenue, how are you supposed to react when you have a bright idea that couldn't be implemented before, because it would have required $billions in investment capital?

You mean in the completely fictional, overblown, absolutely unrealistic case mentioned above?

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As for the glass ceiling.. well, that's kind of up to your ingenuity.

Lolno. Unless you go to the right schools, make the right connections, have the drive to be slightly sociopathic, and have a little luck, you aren't going to make it. Ingenuity has very little to do with it, Marc Zuckerberg et al notwithstanding.


Regarding your circumstances alluded to in the last post: I genuinely feel sorry for you.
However, I still feel like you are arguing against your better interests. I understand that you feel screwed by the state, and as such are possibly biased heavily against it; but from my perspective, the state is the only thing that can act as a balancing force between the super-rich and powerful and the little people. That was the original intent of democracy, and it's an ideal that I think is worth aspiring to.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
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Now we have 7 entries labelled "Salaries and Expenses", described as "discretionary" (I bet!) "non-grant", and "on-budget" and no more details.  Huh...

So, because you don't understand government budget terminology, those expenditures must be unnecessary? 

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How much of your income is the government entitled to?  All of it, riiiiight?  You don't do any work any more.  Based on the logic displayed above, you get nothing and the government keeps it all.

:lol:

Fight the good fight, sir.  Keep us safe from that terrible strawman army.

I may reply in greater detail and length later, but for now, I've got to head in to my $13/hour job in the healthcare industry.  I'll be sure to ask my supervisor, on your behalf, though, if we can stop servicing Medicare/Medicaid recipients, so that we can try to reclaim that 20% of the federal budget.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
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Yes, government has services they need to provide.  However, I'd like to question the government's 'representation' of the public in this matter.  Kinda convenient, when politicians, who end up controlling / benefiting from the policies they implement (special interest projects back home in their election district) just so happen to enact policies that require large amounts of money / resources.  Seems like a good ol boy network, where everyone's doing it, but no one will hold their own representatives accountable, because "handouts pl0x, kk u have my vote, you my h33r0!"  That goes for the welfare bum who decided working was for losers and the millionaire who only wants to pay 3% tax.  No free lunch, either of the two!

Well this is an interesting take on the whole "rich people control everything" conspiracy theory. Protip: BlueFlames already pointed out that pork barrel spending is a small part of the federal spending breakdown. Also I think it's hilarious how you're comparing someone with a six figure income to someone with no income when talking about free lunches.

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I'm kind of on the fence with the whole "value" of the rich.  Yeah they don't really work that much, but, working is not just about manual labor.  It's about sound decisions, managing risk vs. potential in investments, managing people well, and hopefully, investing in your team, from the management through the laborer.  (Yes I know some CEOs would rather just have a bunch of slaves, however...)

So, you can, through smart application of your team and resources, indeed, accomplish many times what one person could... but not that much.

My argument wasn't at all comparing the difficulty of manual labour to management. It was about the ratio of work done to compensation of management types vs worker types.

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OK, here's a thought:  Let's say you own some property.  Let's say you're really good with robotics, and you create a factory, that requires minimal staffing (let's say yourself and a team of 10 engineers).  Now let's say that you begin producing, I dunno, semi-conductors at this factory, cheaper than anyone else can.  You spent your money, hired your employees to do this work.  Now let's say you're rivaling Intel et al... You hire a manager to take care of the factory, and basically are set for life, not having to do anything but provide guidance to your company from time to time.  How much of your income is the government entitled to?  All of it, riiiiight?  You don't do any work any more.  Based on the logic displayed above, you get nothing and the government keeps it all.  Or, perhaps they should give you a minimum-wage 40-hour x 52 week portion of it, just for the idea.

In the situation above, if the government is taking 90% of your income, and (insert % here) of the company's revenue, how are you supposed to react when you have a bright idea that couldn't be implemented before, because it would have required $billions in investment capital?

I never once suggested the government judge how much of your income deserve and take the rest. I was pointing out how incredibly absurd it is for you to talk about income of the wealthy in terms of average-worker-years. It's simply laughable (for the reasons in my previous post) to suggest that the fact that individuals can be taxed multiple average-worker-years worth of money as an argument when by definition there are lots of people earning much less than that amount. And there will always be people that can't afford something. Whether it be buying a Ferrari or having kids, there's just nothing anyone will be able to do to make everyone able to afford everything. The best we can do is set up the game so everyone has a fair shot.

And also I agree with everything BlueFlames and The E just said, not that I really need to point it out.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
The six figure income and no income folks in that example have one thing in common: not doing their part.  The six figure dude wants to keep what is owed to the state for himself, 'cause I guess he thinks his roads aught to be paved for him for free.  The no income dude wants to be taken care of for free.  Same idea.


As for the wealth staying at the 1%... umm, they buy mansions, yes?  Crazy expensive cars? Hire people to drive them, and people to answer their door?  Buy their own planes, and hire people to fly them, stay at fancy hotels, etc etc etc.... They blow through a ton of money.  Where does all of that go?  I would think if they had more, they would spend more.  There's no point to holding on to money besides to maintain whatever standard of living you want when you stop making income, and/or unless you're planning on giving it to someone or a cause when you die.  For serious, you can't use it after you die.  This actually makes the idea of only ridicu-taxing if the wealthy sit on it seem like a good idea.  Obviously, let them hold on to some for retirement / funds for their children or w/e.


Alright.  Now.  Be sure to check out the "Archives" section on the site referenced below.  It's got one link for every month from March 2009 through current.  I do hope you're not seriously going to just say 'lolno' to this.  It's all made up, exaggerated by 30x, right?  ofc it is.  Go back to sleep.  I'm not trying to say all government spending and programs need to end, I'm trying to say they just go wild with it 'cause it's not their money.

EDIT:
Quote from: Thomas Jefferson
“I place economy among the first and most Important virtues – and debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load with perpetual debt. If we can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, we will be happy.”


Can You Identify the Most Egregious Example of Wasteful Spending by the Welfare State?
December 23, 2011 by Dan Mitchell
I’ve commented many times about wasteful government spending, including Social Security bureaucrats spending $700 thousand to party at a luxury resort, HUD bureaucrats giving huge subsidies for welfare recipients to live in upscale neighborhoods, rampant fraud in the unemployment insurance program, and tax dollars being used to subsidize a grown man wearing diapers and living as an “adult baby.”

Those are depressing examples, but here are three additional stories that may be even worse. They all show how entitlement programs squander other people’s money.

1. A local news outlet in Oregon revealed that recipients can use food stamps to buy luxury products:

Oregon Trail Cards — which are part of the state’s food stamp program — can be used to purchase luxury coffee concoctions at Starbucks counters inside grocery stores, investigators from Fox 12 in Oregon have discovered. …According to federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) guidelines, people cannot buy foods that will be eaten in the store or hot foods. However, luxury items that are allowed include soft drinks, candy, cookies, ice cream, even bakery cakes and energy drinks that have a nutrition facts label.

2. Benjamin Domenech of the Heartland Institute reports that hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent on penis pumps:

According to data collected by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), Medicare has spent more than $240 million of taxpayer money on penis pumps for elderly men over the past decade, and will surpass a quarter of a billion dollars this year for costs since 2001. The cost to taxpayers for the pumps more than quadrupled during that period… And these represent only the costs for external devices, technically classified as “Male Vacuum Erection Systems,” not implantable devices or oral drugs such as Viagra.”

3. A Seattle TV station has an expose about a woman receiving various forms of welfare even though she lives in a million-dollar home.

Search warrant documents unsealed Friday in federal court reveal that she received more than $1,200 a month in public housing vouchers, plus monthly cash from the federal and state government for a disability, as well as food stamps. Property records show the woman lives in a 2,500 square-foot home, with gardens and a boat dock, that is valued at $1.2 million. Records show she has received welfare benefits while living in the plush home since 2003. Records also show she truthfully provided her address when she applied for benefits.

These are the stories that I keep in mind every time I hear some politician whining that “spending has been cut to the bone” and higher taxes are needed.

P.S. I’m happy to report that American taxpayers were not victimized by the all-time record for the most absurd example of government waste, which took place when British taxpayers financed sex trips to Amsterdam for welfare recipients.




In Addition to Its Many other Flaws, Obamacare Is Becoming a Racket for Overpaid Government Bureaucrats

I’ve certainly complained about Obamacare from a fiscal perspective, warning that it means higher taxes and more spending.

And I’ve also warned that it will make our health care system less efficient and could lead to some of the horrifying examples of rationing and poor care that you find in the United Kingdom (scroll to the bottom of this post for some shocking examples).

But if you need another reason to be upset, it turns out that Obamacare is going to be a very lucrative gig for a new crop of government bureaucrats.

Here are some very disturbing details from the Pueblo Chieftan in Colorado.

Eye-popping salaries proposed for employees of the health benefits exchange being formed in Colorado grabbed the attention of Republicans and Democrats alike on Thursday. A subcommittee of the board charged with establishing the exchange  is considering a draft budget for its federal grant application that would create 24 positions and pay those employees a total of more than $3 million annually to manage the health care cooperative. The average annual salary of a health benefits exchange employee would exceed $125,000 under the plan. …“We have executive directors (of state departments) that are in charge of thousands of people here that make significantly less than that,” said Sen. Bill Cadman, R-Colorado Springs. …A Democrat on the committee overseeing enactment of health benefits exchange legislation in the state agreed that the figures are worthy of scrutiny. …Under the health care overhaul, states were required to establish exchanges. Colorado authorized its exchange this year in SB200.

Keep in mind that the $125,000 figure is an average, which means many of the bureaucrats will be getting much bigger paychecks.


And also remember that we’re talking Colorado, not someplace like New York City where the cost of living is a bit higher.

Even more important, the article refers to the “average annual salary,” which means it probably doesn’t include the gold-plated benefit packages that are far more generous than generally available in the private sector (state and local bureaucrats, for instance, make out like bandits on pensions).

And to show that this story is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s recycle my video about overpaid government bureaucrats.

And if all the data in the video doesn’t convince you, check out this chart.



The Joy of Government-Run Healthcare: The UK’s Gilded Bureaucrats and Dying Patients

I’m not sure whether this is a post about America’s dismal future if Obamacare is allowed to take root or whether this is a post about bureaucrats ripping off taxpayers.

But I do know that it shows that the insiders take care of themselves quite nicely when the government seizes more control of a nation’s healthcare sector.

Here’s a report from the UK-based Telegraph about how bureaucrats at a Scottish branch of the National Health Service are bilking taxpayers.

National Procurement, a branch of the NHS National Services Division, arranged for staff who are deemed to be “regular users” of cars for business to get the cars through a taxpayer-backed vehicle-leasing scheme. …Figures provided by National Procurement in response to a Freedom of Information request showed that…one in eight members of staff, had used the 4x4s and convertibles to drive to work. Much of the insurance, petrol, road tax and leasing is funded by the state.

And we’re not talking cheap automobiles. Keep in mind, when you read this next passage, that £25,000 is almost $40,000.

One employee was leased a £27,000 Mercedes, while three other workers have been driving £23,000 S-line Audi A3 sports cars. Another employee received a £28,300 Audi TT. Since the beginning of this year, five new cars have been leased to staff, including a four-door BMW worth more than £30,500. Other leased vehicles include another Audi sports car worth more than £25,000 and three Range Rover Evoques costing up to £29,500.

So how do they work this scam? Simple, they take needless trips.

…staff have had to clock up a minimum of 5000 business miles during office hours to qualify for the scheme. …A department source told the Herald newspaper that some members of staff were using their leased cars for 80-mile round trips between National Procurement’s two offices, in Larkhall, Lanarkshire, and South Gyle in Edinburgh, even though there are adequate video conferencing facilities at both locations.

One hopes that this scandal in a Scottish branch is an exception and that most bureaucrats don’t behave in a similarly reprehensible fashion.

But given the bloated size of the National Health Service bureaucracy, it’s more likely that this is just the tip of the iceberg.



There is an entitlement culture in most government bureaucracies, and I would be shocked in the paper pushers and memo writers hadn’t figured out how to manipulate the system

And since there are more than 1.6 million of them, the magnitude of the fraud is presumably enormous.

The obvious follow-up question is whether taxpayers in the United Kingdom are getting some good value from this army of cosseted bureaucrats?

Unfortunately, that’s not the case. Here are some chilling excerpts from a story in the Daily Mail.

NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage or to free up beds, a senior consultant claimed yesterday. Professor Patrick Pullicino said doctors had turned the use of a controversial ‘death pathway’ into the equivalent of euthanasia… There are around 450,000 deaths in Britain each year of people who are in hospital or under NHS care. Around 29 per cent – 130,000 – are of patients who were on the LCP. Professor Pullicino claimed that far too often elderly patients who could live longer are placed on the LCP and it had now become an ‘assisted death pathway rather than a care pathway’.

Here are a couple of horrifying examples.

Professor Pullicino revealed he had personally intervened to take a patient off the LCP who went on to be successfully treated. He said this showed that claims they had hours or days left are ‘palpably false’. In the example he revealed a 71-year-old who was admitted to hospital suffering from pneumonia and epilepsy was put on the LCP by a covering doctor on a weekend shift. Professor Pullicino said he had returned to work after a weekend to find the patient unresponsive and his family upset because they had not agreed to place him on the LCP. ‘I removed the patient from the LCP despite significant resistance,’ he said. ‘His seizures came under control and four weeks later he was discharged home to his family,’ he said.

In other words, government-run healthcare in the United Kingdom is a great scam if you’re an insider. But not such a good deal if you’re someone who needs, well, healthcare.

Sort of makes you wonder what Paul Krugman was thinking when he wrote, “In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false.”

I guess the English newspapers are making up stories to denigrate their own nation. If you want to see more of these “false” stories, click here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 06:45:09 pm by jr2 »

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)


your posts are too long, you win

  

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
@jr2: take a position:

1. Are you for or against Bush's tax cuts, i.e. the elimination of the capital gains tax, i.e. the "loophole" that allows however many of the top 1% to pay $0 in taxes?

2. Suppose you have a choice: you can improve the quality of life for the vast majority of people, and not significantly make the quality of life worse for hardly anyone, or you can do nothing. What would you choose?

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
this is relevant

Money

also i should point out that if rich people dont want to pay more taxes then maybe they should create jobs for the 15% unemployed in the us. dont put that new factory you want to build in china just cause you will make more money out of it. sure you wont make as much money if you put that factory in the us, but you will ease unemployment. and those people who just got jobs will pay taxes. and since everyone happy and more people can pay taxes, no reason to increase them taxes, and less welfare to pay out.

if you start trickling sideways instead of down, then **** them, they do not care about the us. government, take their money! so we dont have bums littering the streets. id rather have them put up in dinky studio apartments, fed, and treated for their mental disorders, ect, than have them ask me for my change, or stealing my stuff so they can buy crack. yes you are going to have a whole slew of asshats taking advantage of the social services and healthcare, both on the inside and out. thats what the law is for.

you may also want to pay workers a little better than welfare does. i've known working class families making less than families on welfare, and thats shameful of those who create jobs. if what you get from welfare/food stamps/housing organizations/etc is more than what you would receive from a minimum wage job, then perhaps that job needs to pay more. you offer no incentive for free lunch types to move up into the working class, and for working class types to stay working class.

im all for basic human needs being a civil right. with all this money flying around, the cost of this is pocket change to the 1%. this is also within reason, with restriction on living space sizes, restrictions on money/food/healthcare dollar amounts. this should be equivalent to maybe 50-75% of the minimum wage, to provide the incentive to jump from looserville to the working class. sure the rich dont want to pay for all that stuff, but its not like they didnt dig this hole themselves. they exported jobs to china, they took advantage of the workforce, they refused to give them health benefits, they refused to pay their personal and corporate taxes, they refused to create jobs. with wealth comes responsibility.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 11:16:27 pm by Nuke »
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
A fact re: glass ceiling that everyone may find interesting:

In virtually all democratic countries, the strongest predictor of your household income at any given time in your life is your parent's household income.  Not education, not where you live, not who you marry, not who you know, but what your parent's household made in income when you were growing up.  THAT is what the glass ceiling means, and it's why people like jr2 are delusional when they talk about money and social hierarchy.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 
Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
[foreword]

I was in the process of writing a much longer post, but as I reread jr2's last post, the image really came together, and I realized that there's only one salient point to be made.  I've trimmed the fat, as it were, and left what I feel addresses the crux of the problem.

[/foreword]

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Be sure to check out the "Archives" section on the site referenced below.

Color me unimpressed.  It's a right-wing blog that cites itself more than any outside source, and when it does cite outside sources, it cites right-wing newspapers, tabloids, and lobbying groups, which, yes, do all have credibility issues of their own.

Just to grab one (and then a couple more), if you did even a cursory investigation into The Heartland Institute, you'd have found out that this organization made its living in the 1990's producing garbage "science" to convince Congress that second-hand tobacco smoke isn't a public health hazard, while engaging in shady backroom business with the GOP to ensure that the party would be their consistant ally on the issue.  The Cato Institute (with whom the blog's author is "a senior Fellow") spends most of its time, these days, opposing environmental legislation, which you might expect from a lobbying group founded and funded, in large-part, by oil mogul Charles Koch.  The Daily Mail is a UK rag tabloid that, were it to be printed in the United States, would compete with The National Enquirer because they both lack any journalistic integrity or qualms about making **** up.

Citing a lobbying group with a history of making up junk science to support its pre-determined conclusions isn't convincing, unless your readers are unwilling to do a cursory investigation of that lobbying group.  Citing a tabloid isn't convincing, unless your audience is unwilling to read so much as another article in the same tabloid to realize that they just make **** up.  Padding out citations with links to your own blog isn't convincing, unless your audience doesn't even bother to mouse-over the links and is just dumbstruck by the sheer number of them.  The three used in concert are only impressive in as far as they demonstrate the expected level of intellectual laziness of the target audience.

This blog is absolutely not something to take at face-value, especially when it relies on citations of this quality and has such strong ties to overtly partisan organizations.  In fact, you'd be ill-advised to take nearly any source at face-value, particularly in the realm of politics.  You've got to dig into and through the sources to find out who wrote them, who funded them, and whether they describe reality or twist it to fit a preconceived conclusion.  In the case of a study conducted by a partisan group, to lend it any credibility, you have to see if a study's findings are corroborated by similar studies run by organizations with a neutral or opposing viewpoint on the issue in question.  Without taking those extra steps to verify the veracity of your source, there's nothing separating your citation from an empassioned use of Thomas the Tank Engine as evidence that the government long ago built sentient trains.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
Hmm, well, if that organization was trying to say second-hand smoke wasn't harmful... yeah that's shady.  Let me go dig down the links.  I knew many were inside the blog, but I assumed all salient points would have external references, let me check.

Personally, I do know quite a few obvious issues with government waste, just working for them, so, it's there, if not as big as some sites say.  In other words, I don't think someone just made all this **** up.

Cause honestly, if I'd made all that up, I'd have done a better job.  :rolleyes:

Case in point, we are doing our classes on VMWare using Panasonic CF-52s that, I've heard from our shop (workcenter) cost the US taxpayers ~$7,000 a piece.  Current price brand new is ~$2,000 for a CF-53.  But we have to buy them at that price because we have a contract, and we can't order parts from other sources, if the company we <USMC> have a contract with has the part or product we need in stock.  I'm in the reserves, so I only really interact with this environment once a month, but... if we are doing that at a reserve base, and we haev proabably a few hundred of these at least...   it seems like everything the government touches just gets raped by people trying to take advantage of it.  Cause stealing from the collective is somehow ok.  I guess sort of how stealing from individuals is ok as long as you don't get caught.  (Yeah been victim of that too). 

Just so I'm clear, it's not that life took a turn for the worse and now I'm all upset.  I've been upset, my life has been rather sucky for a couple of years now at least, but I've thought this way for a while.  {{years before all of these current circumstances}}

I'm not far-right extreme (let the rich get out of taxes and cut all benefits to the under priviledged), but I'm not far-left either (tax the **** out of the rich 'cause they've got money and they don't need it, and just give it to anyone who asks {{apparently, unless they have a job, and just need a little assistance, that is}})

« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:51:26 am by jr2 »

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
Quote
I'm not far-right extreme (let the rich get out of taxes and cut all benefits to the under priviledged), but I'm not far-left either (tax the **** out of the rich 'cause they've got money and they don't need it, and just give it to anyone who asks {{apparently, unless they have a job, and just need a little assistance, that is}})

I don't quite think that's what left and right mean...

 

Offline jr2

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
$125,400,000,000  ,,,


 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
And did you notice how small that is compared to a lot of other things on that chart? **** ballistic missile submarines.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:12:20 pm by Aardwolf »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
Heh, it's even smaller than "estimated direct annual agricultural value of bees". :)

 

Offline jr2

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
Download the image and view it in GIMP, and put in View > Display Navigation Window.

And, obviously, the amount shown is only what they caught.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
So this is logic then? Because the government make improper payments the idea of making the proper payments is somehow incorrect?

You'll need to do a ****load better than that.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Nuke

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
that big block at the bottom, thats all nukes
 :cool:

never said burning the earth is cheap.

i can totally agree that our government is a wasteful pig however. i vote down every new government agency/organization/board/committee/whatever that comes across my ballot. we got plenty of bureaucracy already. id rather the money get spent on solving actual problems than imaginary problems that politicians convince that everyone exists because some lobbyist told them they do.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 08:17:44 pm by Nuke »
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline jr2

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
So this is logic then? Because the government make improper payments the idea of making the proper payments is somehow incorrect?

You'll need to do a ****load better than that.

-_-  Cut out the waste, fraud, and abuse, and you won't need as many proper payments.  Cut out the unnecessary spending, and you'll need even less.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm callin' it. (2012 Electoral Map)
And you believe that left-wingers don't want to cut out the waste, fraud, and abuse?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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