Author Topic: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??  (Read 7807 times)

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Offline Alex Heartnet

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Indeed, the first line of defense for any evil organization should be to avoid attracting attention in the first place.  As much as possible, keep prying eyes away from your evil base, and if they do manage to snoop around, make sure they return back to base with no solid proof of any wrongdoing.  The forces of justice will find it difficult to justify sending more agents if their agents always return home unharmed and empty-handed.

 

Offline FireSpawn

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Hmm, I'm not quite comfortable talking about what I plan to do once I become a fully fledged Evil Overlord, in a thread that began about Neo-Nazis. A fresh start may be in order. All in favour?
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Offline Mika

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Interesting development from Germany:
http://news.yahoo.com/german-troops-deployed-home-soil-court-rules-234106824.html

I suspect that this is aimed towards violent right wing protests that are most likely going to take place a couple of years in the future.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
I suspect that ...

:rolleyes & groan:

 

Offline The E

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Interesting development from Germany:
http://news.yahoo.com/german-troops-deployed-home-soil-court-rules-234106824.html

I suspect that this is aimed towards violent right wing protests that are most likely going to take place a couple of years in the future.

I suspect you have no idea what you are talking about. The ruling in question is highly, highly questionable. Also, it specifically forbids the use of the Bundeswehr against protesters and demonstrations, so yeah. None of that.

The only thing (and this is where the questionable part comes in) where the Bundeswehr is allowed to be deployed is in the case of "a catastrophe, or imminent catastrophic danger"; Basically only when the Police is absolutely incapable of reacting appropriately.

Oh, and please share your crystal ball with the rest of us. I wonder how you can be so sure that there will be violent protests in the future that escalate so much that regular police can't handle them.
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Offline FireSpawn

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
:outb4****storm:
 :warp:
If you hit it and it bleeds, you can kill it. If you hit it and it doesn't bleed...You are obviously not hitting hard enough.

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Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Interesting development from Germany:
http://news.yahoo.com/german-troops-deployed-home-soil-court-rules-234106824.html

I suspect that this is aimed towards violent right wing protests that are most likely going to take place a couple of years in the future.

I suspect you have no idea what you are talking about. The ruling in question is highly, highly questionable. Also, it specifically forbids the use of the Bundeswehr against protesters and demonstrations, so yeah. None of that.

The only thing (and this is where the questionable part comes in) where the Bundeswehr is allowed to be deployed is in the case of "a catastrophe, or imminent catastrophic danger"; Basically only when the Police is absolutely incapable of reacting appropriately.

Oh, and please share your crystal ball with the rest of us. I wonder how you can be so sure that there will be violent protests in the future that escalate so much that regular police can't handle them.

Food riots? Social unrest in debt-laden countries? A guy in Italy just lit himself on fire in front of the parliament building. You have to admit, the possibility of widespread protests isn't exactly lessening as time goes on.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
And how is any of that something which can't be controlled by the police?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Did I say it was or wasn't? No, all I simply said was "the possibility of widespread protests isn't exactly lessening as time goes on".

 

Offline The E

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
No, it's not.

It's not increasing either, however.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
I would disagree with that. Rising food prices, continuously stubborn unemployment, and a worsening debt crises in many member states of the EU, and other general trends around the world indicate an incrementally increasing risk for civil unrest. Unpopular civic measures such as the Trapwire network in the US and the continuing expose' on the world's richest also favor a trend towards a more fragile world-state.

That being said, in other areas the opposite is true. In Washington DC, increasing economic gains and stability may indeed mean that area of the world, along with other nations such as possibly Germany, where exports are high and quality of living is quite good, mean that in those areas have a lessening risk of civic unrest in the coming years, while places like Italy, Spain, and some areas of the United States, such as Oakland, CA, show an opposite trend.

However rising pan-European sentiments of anti-immigrants and an increasing focus on the far right's revival may indicate to the powers in charge that they should be prepared for trouble in the future. From what I've heard in almost every arena, Germany is pretty much the only state in the EU that seems to be weathering the economic storm with any degree of success these days, and I've gathered that it's one of the primary forces that's keeping the Euro together - so at the moment it seems like it's in the eye of the storm. However looking outside of Germany, I can see a breakup of the Euro possibly igniting unrest in other countries that may spill over into Germany, thus giving powers cause for concern.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 11:51:46 pm by Unknown Target »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
And how does any of that doom and gloom lead to civil unrest on a scale that would necessitate the use of the armed forces? Please remember, the mandate handed out by the court explicitly forbids the use of the military to police protests, and only makes an exception for "catastrophic occurences" a term undefined in this context. The one thing you are ignoring (possibly because you don't know), is that this ruling by the constitutional court is highly controversial for that very reason, and as such not very likely to ever be acted upon, unless the court can clarify its stance.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
I'm not sure if this is what the bill's passage implies, but did Germany previously not have any mechanism whereby military troops could be deployed inside the country in cases such as a large natural disaster?  In the US, the National Guard (essentially a military reserve force and officially-organized militia under the authority of a state's governor) is frequently mobilized in the aftermath of events like hurricanes and wildfires; however, the domestic deployment of federal troops by the President is severely limited.  Interestingly enough, a law passed under Bush eased those restrictions, but its provisions were struck down a year or two later.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Yes, the Bundeswehr has been supplementing local efforts for disaster recovery for years. That part of its job has never been under discussion, and has never been criticized.

This ruling (it is NOT a bill, it's a ruling by Germany's equivalent of the supreme court) would allow the use of the Bundeswehr in their role as an armed response force to some sort of undefined situation where the police would not be able to handle it.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Food riots? Social unrest in debt-laden countries? A guy in Italy just lit himself on fire in front of the parliament building. You have to admit, the possibility of widespread protests isn't exactly lessening as time goes on.

What does Italy have to do with Germany? And why single out Europe in that regard at all? The "possibility for those future problems" is not any less in the US or anywhere else.

Keywords being "possibility" and "future".


The biggest possibility in regards to this thread however is that of people with no facts whatsoever pulling paranoid idiocies out of their own a**.
Appears to work especially well with foreign countries...  as they know even less about those.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 05:15:30 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Agreed. Italy is on the brink of bankrupcy and in a much worse situation than Germany, which is doing quite well compared to the rest of the Eurozone. I guess that in a few years, people might start considering going back to Fascism in Italy, but I don't foresee such thing happening in Germany anytime soon. Eurozone would collapse long before Germany is even close to the state Italy or Spain is in.

 
Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
I guess that in a few years, people might start considering going back to Fascism in Italy, but I don't foresee such thing happening in Germany anytime soon.

Wait, what? Yes, the situation isn't good, by a long shot. But Fascism?  As if the "Years of Lead" had taught us nothing. Trust me, there's enough political will left in the nation to prevent that from ever happening again.

p.s.: and I'd say "brink of bankrupcy" is a bit too much... but I'm digressing.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
Hmmm, what should I do with you? There is a reason why I used the word "suspect" - to imply that this is speculation, which most of the people got. However, if I say it is speculation, it does not mean there is no grounds for it. Unfortunately I did not have time to talk about this with German colleagues today to hear what they think about it, but yes, the ruling is very questionable.

Why do I find the ruling questionable? There is no good definition on the cases which would invoke military response. Furthermore, this allows combat weapons to be used, which is more than weird for me at least. The only way I can think of this would be necessary is a large scale uncontrolled riot or uprising. In other emergencies, military usually doesn't even need firearms - but then why add such a ruling? No need for a such thing can be seen at the moment, but from what I have heard is that German general opinion is starting to question the euro itself.

What I think will cause nationalism to raise up? It is the looming break up of euro, that has probably became inevitable now. I think Germans don't know how much trouble they are going to get from the collapse of the euro, as lots of German banks have loaned with very high risks to South European countries - countries that cannot pay back, and which also bought German stuff. At the moment the German commerce works well, but this is mainly because the surrounding countries have bought German stuff - and now that is in decline. Germany too has a relatively high level of debt to pay on top of that. Further, it is within the interests of Southern Europeans to transfer lots of their national debt to ECB, and to the further European Stability Fund (I don't know the exact name in English). This is what they are mostly going to do, and I understand it. I would try to do it too, if I were in charge there. The other possibility to solve this mess is to devaluate the euro . Third solution is the break up of eurozone.

Now, the more stable European countries then do not want to participate in paying those loans. That is not strange either, given the circumstances. I don't think this will work in the long run, one solution has been given, the unionization process, but the problem is, it is just more agreements and deals, but who anymore trusts those agreements? That seems to be the first thing that gets rolled over. This is basically the same as that those who are doing well (for now) cough up the cash for the debt and trust the process to correct itself which hasn't worked so far. The same Southern Europeans will say that it is Germany who has benefited most from the euro (no surprise, since the German economy happens to be the closest to the ideal euro economy). The actual numbers show 10 % decrease in living standard and wages in Germany, but it doesn't matter since the absolute values of those wages are still higher. The industry in other Southern European countries has suffered greatly, but it is not clear to me at the moment whether this is a side effect of euro, or just stupid political decisions. In Finland's case, it is mostly the latter. The unionization process will face fierce opposition from Southern Europe (they will agree on ESF bailing them out, but will oppose anything that would change their ability to control their countries), and would actually shift the governments there towards right - the way to defend themselves against EU is the rise of nationalism.

How about a partial break up of eurozone? This has been discussed quite heavily here, but the problem is that Southern European countries are very much intertwined with their loans. Breaking one country from the euro zone would immediately render several tens of billion of deficits in others. For whatever reason, the bailout packages to Greece do not show any difference in the national debt, and this is the same for all indebted euro countries. It would be crazy to expect otherwise from further packages. If the whole Southern Europe is broken up from the euro zone, German banks are going to need funding next, and that cannot be done any more as most of the extra money has been spent in the bailout packages. Not an option, I think.

How about the devaluation of euro, and taking a larger inflation target? This is the former economy in the earlier Southern European countries, and is mainly driven by selfishness. The fundamental reason for this sort of structure of economy is that everybody wants more, and then gets a raise. In order to keep all things equal, that means that the value of the currency will be decreased. This is the easiest way to do it, though very painful for everybody who has saved cash. The devaluation of euro would immediately affect the bank accounts of Germans. The Germans are very much opposed on this action, but then again, they are against spending money in the course of ECB to South too.

Two last possibilities are complete break up of euro zone, or Germany breaking up from eurozone. Both mean that all affected banks will suffer, and there would no doubt be restructuring of the government debts to become realistic in payable terms, or just cancellations of the debt. If Germany does this alone, that means they will lose some amount of those loans (I think some amount of that bailout packages have gone directly to banks, not only in Germany), but more alarmingly, their new currency value would increase - at first at least. This is BAD news, as the surrounding countries would not be able to afford in German products, and Germany relies on exports to Europe, and they would find it even harder to sell stuff to China.

So, what does this have to do with riots? Well, Germany is going to lose money no matter what at this point - this is already a reason for civil unrest, if it happens in a large enough scale and especially if it is shown that German banks have seriously ****ed up their loaning strategies. The rest of it depends on what kind of route will be taken - if it is devaluation, then the lowest wage workers can barely afford living in Germany which will lead to social unrest - plus that you also anger the people who have wealth and power. If it is a new currency, this is already a step towards nationalism. Since the ruling parties in Germany are still weighing towards euro, at least some amount of steps towards right is needed. But I'm afraid it is would not be as simple as that. Since German currency would be valued very high, it would stop the exports from Germany, which will lead towards social unrest. I don't know if it will extend to rioting, but this ruling seems to be a reservation for that.

So, in short I see the court ruling as a precaution for things to come. Any further questions? I see that today, UK and German papers are speculating on Finnish departure from euro. That speculation has started in Finnish magazines too, and some of the companies have already traded the currency used in the deals to dollars. Our EU-minister is repeating similar sort of phrases that were heard in the home made recession in the 1990s, "We will not devalue!" vs. "Finland is fully committed to euro!" The situation in the whole EU level is relatively similar to ours in the 1990, the most reasonable way would be to devalue the euro, or break up some countries and allow them to have their own currencies. Seemingly since this has not happened, German banks have too much invested there, the other possibility is the German reluctance on devaluation. Unless, of course, somebody figures out a way how Germany could get out of this without losing money, but I don't think that will be possible.

The fundamental reason for the crisis is banking and politics. Banking sector for giving out loans with ridiculous risks, and politics for not keeping the legalization and control up to date. Banking crisis is the worst, as it will affect everyone - Iceland managed to pull this one of, but not without a hint of nationalism. The latest banking crisis went past here without rioting (though this would have been justified and should have happened in my opinion), but the guys down there in the South seem to have more temperament... The Chinese have a curse that goes "May you live in interesting times!" - Now I know understand what that means.

EDIT: Oh and I forgot to add, what is actually the difference between a riot and a demonstration? And what is the difference between them in a tight spot?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 04:42:41 pm by Mika »
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
@ The E: You're right, I didn't know that; the "catastrophic occurrences" is the sort of open-door statute that we in the US have become unfortunately accustomed to; and I'm not saying anything about the intent here, but we in the US are also unfortunately accustomed to those statutes being abused once put in place.

What does Italy have to do with Germany? And why single out Europe in that regard at all? The "possibility for those future problems" is not any less in the US or anywhere else.

Keywords being "possibility" and "future".

The biggest possibility in regards to this thread however is that of people with no facts whatsoever pulling paranoid idiocies out of their own a**.
Appears to work especially well with foreign countries...  as they know even less about those.

I'm not sure if you read my post or not, but if you didn't;

"I would disagree with that. Rising food prices, continuously stubborn unemployment, and a worsening debt crises in many member states of the EU, and other general trends around the world indicate an incrementally increasing risk for civil unrest. Unpopular civic measures such as the Trapwire network in the US and the continuing expose' on the world's richest also favor a trend towards a more fragile world-state."

and;

"mean that in those areas have a lessening risk of civic unrest in the coming years, while places like Italy, Spain, and some areas of the United States, such as Oakland, CA, show an opposite trend."

So as you can see I was not singling out Europe alone. As for what Italy has to do with Germany, I guess it's the same sort of question as "what does Texas have to do with New York?" They're both part of an interconnected economic framework that rely upon each other, and both have many citizens and relatives that live/travel between the two countries/states. So what goes on in Italy will surely affect Germany in the future, as is already happening.

Yes, keywords being possibility and future. I don't think I said anything to the contrary.

Next time, please just check your defensiveness at the door and try to understand what someone's trying to say, rather than immediately taking two steps to trying to prove them wrong and/or stupid.

CmdKevin; for everyone's sake, I hope you're right. But wasn't there a big hubbub just recently about neo-nazis winning some big election in Greece? I don't really know enough about that situation to comment, but if Italy gets as bad as Greece, who knows. I know the hardliners are trying to tear back ground in the US.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Neo-Nazis on the march in Germany??
I guess that in a few years, people might start considering going back to Fascism in Italy, but I don't foresee such thing happening in Germany anytime soon.

Wait, what? Yes, the situation isn't good, by a long shot. But Fascism?  As if the "Years of Lead" had taught us nothing. Trust me, there's enough political will left in the nation to prevent that from ever happening again.

p.s.: and I'd say "brink of bankrupcy" is a bit too much... but I'm digressing.
This is one of the few places where I really hope I'll be wrong. But going by the economic prognoses I've seen, Italy is seems to be going the same way as Greece, and UT mentioned what already starts happening in Greece. On one hand, Italy has already had an experience with Fascism, but when facing a crisis, people tend to forget their history lessons. Let's hope this whole economic crisis gets better before things really go south.