[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Bobboau
"Remember that Jose Pasandra dude, the Hispanic who was arrested a month ago for planning to blow up a dirty bomb? He's an American citizen and he's already been transferred to a military court and being held as an "enemy combatant," something Bush said would never happen to an American citizen! "

If you inlist in a foreign army currently engaged in hostilities against America, you lose you're citizenship,
So the moral of this lesson is, don't plan to render a section of suburbia a radioactive wasteland for the next ten thousand years, or you risk facing the military courts

As for the "America shouldn't be running around killing people", that is much like the **** of a bull
If anything we should be bombing more, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, anyone, and I mean ANYONE, supporting this **** should feel our wrath like the Japanese did, all it takes is a few megatons and they'll fall right in line

As for the rest of you, name you're country and I'll tell you who we saved you're asses from, with our frig'n gung-ho wild west cowboy aditude

Yep i agree with all of that, nuclear weapons are a bit too much through, conventional weapons would be just fine.

Al Qauda just werent planning to hit American either, they were going to hit Big Pen and the House of Commons as well, but lucky we shut down all the airports stopping them.
(also no one saved Britain from anything, we beat the Germans in the Battle of Britain).

[wEvil]

The way things are going in the UK I'd plan to hit the house of commons.

[Razor]

Originally posted by Bobboau


As for the "America shouldn't be running around killing people", that is much like the **** of a bull
If anything we should be bombing more, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, anyone, and I mean ANYONE, supporting this **** should feel our wrath like the Japanese did, all it takes is a few megatons and they'll fall right in line

As for the rest of you, name you're country and I'll tell you who we saved you're asses from, with our frig'n gung-ho wild west cowboy aditude

So if I would say that I am against USA's attacks on those countries and if I would say that I hate the war that America fights, then my country should be bombed to death. Then, you my friend are an imbicile.

Sure, it isn't a  big problem to bomb something. USA has who knows how man nuclear warheads that can destroy a nation and kill not thousonds, nor millions, but billions and later when that happens, Bush or another american president would say that they destroyed a nation for democratic reasons and in effort to stop terrorism. Now that we are talking about terrorism, you may know what happened on Kosovo from 1997 to 1999 and that Yugoslavia was bombed for something we didn't even do. And to talk about things that USA violated when they commited this cowerdly, grousom and terrorist act, well I can find you pages and pages of material to read. And of course, USA just had to act to show off their power even though they didn't have a single clue what was really going on. They took satelite pictures, added some things on them, altered them a bit and said that Serbian police was killing masses of people on Kosovo. And what about Albanian terrorists. They killed about a hundred times greater number. Of course, I don't say that Slobodan Milosevic is a good guy, on the contrary he is evil. He made Serbia suffer for 10 years, he robbed us, but he didn't attack any other nation during that conflict.

But, now to return to america.
By attacking Yugoslavia NATO violated the following:

- United Nation Statute by  attacking FRY without any UN resolution allowing them to use force. Further  more Yugoslavia didn't attack any other country.

- NATO Founding Act that states NATO mission is protection of member countries. No country was  under attack by Yugoslavia. In fact, Yugoslavia through it's history always fought the war where it deffended it self. Which is also the case in 1999.

- Wienna Convention forbidding one state to use military force to  compel other state to sign an international agreement.

Of course, when NATO attacked yugoslavia, they disregarded these treties and conventions and made out that USA can attack any country at any time. And this is democracy? Please!

Now, what am I trying to say is that America is and has been absolutely unfair to the world. 11.9 was a tragedy. I felt sorry for the people that died, but I doubt that any american was actually against USA's attacks on Afghanistan and YU.

And I agree with Top Gun's statement. USA is NO democracy. Killing millions is cruel and more Nazi than democratic. I say that Americans should stand up against their cruel government. This has to be putted to an end.

[wEvil]

the US has been acting the superhero ever since the end of WWII -

policy of containment?

Why bother containing communism (not to mention their own system seems to be going seriously off the rails in the past ten years)?


The simple fact is that the US has reached such a height of utter hubris they beleive they can now do no wrong - which in the larger scheme of things is sortof correct considering they can bully anyone who complains into silence.

[Razor]

Originally posted by wEvil
the US has been acting the superhero ever since the end of WWII -

policy of containment?

Why bother containing communism (not to mention their own system seems to be going seriously off the rails in the past ten years)?


The simple fact is that the US has reached such a height of utter hubris they beleive they can now do no wrong - which in the larger scheme of things is sortof correct considering they can bully anyone who complains into silence.

Well, maybe they can bully a small country, but they can't bully the world with the other 6 billion people. They would loose.

[wEvil]

And there's probably a reason why they leverage their currently superior economic position for instance to stop Europe consolidating into a federal govornment type - the United States of Europe would certainly be an economic powerhouse if it ever happened.

Which is why it probably won't - too many influential individuals are trying to stop it from ever happening.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by Razor

Well, maybe they can bully a small country, but they can't bully the world with the other 6 billion people. They would loose.

But the world is divided. America has thus ascended to a position where 'it is the world' in foreign policy terms. No government can feasibly pursue an anti-American course and survive.

This sounds bitter, jealous and like blanket condemnation. However, the comments of people like mikhael show that (some) American people are just as disgusted with some US actions as foreigners. I have nothing against American people, as I've never met one I didn't like (not having met Rupert Murdoch - and I know he's Australian but he's also been naturalized).

[Bobboau]

If you're country is supporting them (them being any group planing a mass murder of our civilian population) then you have already violated NATO treaties by starting a war with us. And to hell with the UN, if we're getting attacked I'm not going to just stand around and watch it happen.

You sound like those people who don't believe the holocaust happened, I know a few people who will disagree with you about what happened in Kosovo, because there husbands and brothers and sons have yet to be found

All the bad things we've done, we have done because some stupid know it all European or liberal told us we had too, to keep alliances so we wouldn't act unilaterally, to save this or that,
And I hope you like the freedom of speech you have because if it wasn't for the "Evil American Nazi Party of Doom" you'd still be under the thumb of the USSR, and before that Hitler, hell you'd (or you're parents) probably have been killed by Hitler if we hadn't stopped him, which none of you European countries (other than England) would have done,
"No he won't invade us because we've got a treaty"

"The USSR won the Second World War for us" no they didn't, but I'm not even going to argue this now, I mean this is just a stupid response, I mean USSR, that isn't much better than the Nazis, and we did beat the USSR.
You may not be a ultrapacifistic moralist fool but who ever wrote that letter is

We have given peace a chance,
It has failed because we are fighting people who want no peace,
Now I say give war a chance,
So we can talk in a language that these bustards can understand.

[Corsair]

Not again...
I posted something like this once, about Israel. Bad idea.
A wise man (well, maybe not wise actually) once said

Just say NO to politics

A cookie for whoever remembers who said that!

[Kellan]

I'm scared.

My issue wasn't really with you not liking the USSR - I don't think anyone who has read 1984 can really like it - but in grouping Communists alongside the Stalinists who controlled the USSR.

Sadly, the USSR might have had more of a chance of giving its people a better quality of life if it hadn't been so obsessed with fighting the US - in arms-race terms. The USSR spent up to 50% of GDP on military spending. Imagine that - the US spending $0.5 trillion on defence would certainly put a dent in the number of shiny consumables that could be made.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by Corsair
Not again...
I posted something like this once, about Israel. Bad idea.

Yeah, I've been a bad, baad person. I realise my error.

Still, saying no to politics is fine until Jean-Marie Le Pen and his cronies say Yes (or "oui") and take control of your country. You'll be screwed then...

[an0n]

Originally posted by Kellan
But the world is divided. America has thus ascended to a position where 'it is the world' in foreign policy terms. No government can feasibly pursue an anti-American course and survive.

Cuba have done quite well. They even made a vaccine for Meningitis.

Originally posted by Bobbau
And I hope you like the freedom of speech you have because if it wasn't for the "Evil American Nazi Party of Doom" you'd still be under the thumb of the USSR, and before that Hitler, hell you'd (or you're parents) probably have been killed by Hitler if we hadn't stopped him, which none of you European countries (other than England) would have done,

That's very spurious reasoning. If Hitler had taken over the world, we'd all be strong, fast, clever and would have freedom of speech because all we would know would be pro-Nazi stuff. And before you get too chuffed with America winning world war two, lets not forget they let millions be slaughtered and only started fighting after they were directly attacked. And the USSR put ever last penny, every last man, every conceivable resource they had into crushing the Nazi's. America only used a fraction of their resources, hardly the behaviour of heroes.

The Nazi regime fell, not through American involvement, all America did was hold them off. They fell because Hitler generals didn't want to fight anymore. Germany was running out of food and money so Hitlers generals stopped having submarines upgraded and relaxed the training of the troops. This allowed Allied troops to eventually beat them.

[Corsair]

Originally posted by Kellan
Yeah, I've been a bad, baad person. I realise my error.

Still, saying no to politics is fine until Jean-Marie Le Pen and his cronies say Yes (or "oui") and take control of your country. You'll be screwed then...

Actually the quote was only directed at no politics in the forums. But do you know who said it?

And an0n is right about the USSR in WWII. They practically went broke because of their effort and something around 23 million Soviets died.

[Zeronet]

The sooner we invade Iraq, smash its pitful T-72 and BMPs up and nuke(fiquretively speaking) its ability to perform any sort of research on biological weapons and get rid of Saddamn, the better. Pacifism doesnt work, getting rid of nukes doesnt work, getting rid of evil people by saying, ooh well its not our problem, lets sit here and protest against our government because they dont like Islamic Extremists who blow themselves up doesnt work, shooting the evil people in the head with a M4 Carbine does.

[wEvil]

Originally posted by Bobboau
World War for us" no they didn't, but I'm not even going to argue this now, I mean this is just a stupid response, I mean USSR, that isn't much better than the Nazis, and we did beat the USSR.

Huh?

so who did win the war?

The US certainly didn't do anything except take all the credit at the end (as usual)

My evidence is this :  Without the USSR soaking up vast amounts of manpower on the eastern front there would have been...what?  three, four times as many german troops manning defenses in France when it came to D-day?

It would have been a total disaster.

Now i freely admit I only studied the second world war and cold war for GCSE history, but the facts probably still remain.

Face it, without your communist ALLIES the US would *possibly* be sitting across from a nuclear-armed Fascist supernation.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Zeronet
The sooner we invade Iraq, smash its pitful T-72 and BMPs up and nuke(fiquretively speaking) its ability to perform any sort of research on biological weapons and get rid of Saddamn, the better. Pacifism doesnt work, getting rid of nukes doesnt work, getting rid of evil people by saying, ooh well its not our problem, lets sit here and protest against our government because they dont like Islamic Extremists who blow themselves up doesnt work, shooting the evil people in the head with a M4 Carbine does.

You kill them, you make them martyrs.  You can't put the fear of death into people who want to die.

The whole point is that attacking Iraq will simply inflame the Arab world - not just by the attacks, but also from the inevitable stationing of US troops in Arab countries.  The reason behind September 11 was (along with the insanity of Bin Ladin and other religious dogma) the stationing of Allied trrops in Saudia Arabia - considered sacred soil.

The other thing is that the 'war against terrorism' has yet to do anything to counteract the causes of terrorism - it is far better to focus on stabilising the situation in Israel and in assisiting stuggling arab countries, rather than attacking them.

Remember that Iraq, Iran, etc, have these weapons because of their distrust towards the US, and the non muslim world in general - compounded by the reciprocal hostility.  The problem is that Us, and indeed (to a lesser degree) NATO countries seem to reject the forms of life and government in Arab or Communist countries, rather than allowing the people of that country to decide for themselves.

i.e. look at the USSr - it was always fairly free from any real danger of US attac, and eventually democracy came about peacefully.

The more worrying thing is the human rights lapses in the US itself, IMo.  Effectively, Habeus Corpus is suspended - any US citizen can be designated an 'unlawful combatant' (or whateve the term is), and held indefinately without trial, or indeed without any evidence being produced agianst them.

[wEvil]

Originally posted by Zeronet
The sooner we invade Iraq, smash its pitful T-72 and BMPs up and nuke(fiquretively speaking) its ability to perform any sort of research on biological weapons and get rid of Saddamn, the better. Pacifism doesnt work, getting rid of nukes doesnt work, getting rid of evil people by saying, ooh well its not our problem, lets sit here and protest against our government because they dont like Islamic Extremists who blow themselves up doesnt work, shooting the evil people in the head with a M4 Carbine does.

Which, although a pitifully simple way of looking at it, also makes you the evil one to them.

Catch -22

[Top Gun]

It's amazing how hypocritical the British and Us governments can get when it suits them. Iraq is far more permissive than any of the other states in that area (exclufding the UAE) and remember who gave them all of the "Weapons of mass destruction". Studies have shown that the Iraqi government has been responsible in distributing food to its population, everting major famine (although they are contested) and there has been NO EVIDENCE TO LINK IRAQ TO TERRORISM.


The war in Afghanistan was the right thing to do, it captured a significant number of terrorists (although their treatment has been shocking), gathered vital intelligence and freed the Afghans from the Taliban (which they appeared to appreciate) with minimal casualties. Saddam Hussein's regieme is no Taliban, the Iraqui people have a lot more freedom than many other Arab countries.

Edit:    Here's a link. The source is obviously Biased against war but it containes refrences to unbiased research.

[Razor]

Originally posted by Bobboau
If you're country is supporting them (them being any group planing a mass murder of our civilian population) then you have already violated NATO treaties by starting a war with us.

I am a Serb. I lived in Yugoslavia for 15 years before I mooved to Norway two years ago and I  saw the suffering of people when nato bombed my country. And no, I don't support terrorism or anything like it. I don't hate American people, I just hate your imperialistic, dictating government and NATO because they ruined my country and left it that way. They even used depleted uranium weapons against us. That is too evil to even comment. Our environment is poluted  and our nature almost eradicated thanks to Americans. My country was allready suffering economy crises now it is worse, thanks to Americans again.

Our cultural monuments on Kosovo are on the edges of collapse. Again, thanks to Americans and this time, even thanks to Albanian terrorists. But above all, thousonds of innocent civilians died. NATO also cowerdly tried to stop the truth from reaching the world. They bombed the TV and radio center in Belgrade and destroyed two hospitals in Belgrade. If you don't believe me, go and search the web for truth about your countries true face.

Anyway, our small nation was one of the few that even mannaged to substain the attack of the super force like America. If you weren't cowards like you are and if you would have fought us on the ground ( instead from air and from the safe distance), you would have lost BIG TIME.

[IceFire]

Razor...I don't think many of us here have gone through what you have and so whatever we can say and debate and argue about definately neglects the fact that none of us were THERE and none of us can really understand what kind of events you went through.

But I go back to my original point.  Nobody is on the right anywhere it seems.  In that particular situation in Yugoslavia, I'm pretty sure that there was ethnic cleansing (and im not sure if the media blew it out of proportion or tried to quiet it up...the scale is questionable, the act is most likely not - despite media twisting).

Ultimately the people always suffer in the name of something thats supposed to be greater or bigger or better or with larger implications.  But also, we always seem to end up with two sides of people....victimized by the other...who then turn around and do it again and again and again to the other in a cycle of violence.

Its a wonder our species has survived as long as we have.  Maybe its a miracle.  Maybe it means there is a glimmer of hope for us yet.