Author Topic: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion  (Read 24790 times)

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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
When I wrote "this article" I meant the Techroom entry and the corresponding text on the homepage, not the thread in the forum.

 
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
For the record, I checked the weapon comparison table.
Apart from the BVas, the vasudan beams are better...while the TEI beams are worlds apart from their ancenstors, will the new vasudan beams be still better?
Or maybe multipurpose beams being able to switch between slashing and direct fire?

Keep in mind that, while Vasudan beams are statistically better, they are much more difficult to mount (or are simply rarer); consider that an SGreen is mounted on a Leviathan, along with four AAAfs and a Fusion Mortar, while the Mentu (Zods' new cruiser design) mounts no beams or anti-ship weaponry at all. The SVas is only found (as a single turret) on the Hatshepsut destroyer class. The Sobek mounts two VSlash's, but the Deimos mounts four TerSlash's. The Orion--a T-V War design that is older than even the Typhon--mounts three BGreens and three TerSlash's, while the Typhon struggles to mount two BVas's, and the Hatshepsut just has three BVas's and an SVas (though it does have five Fusion Mortars).

The Hecate, despite being a fleet carrier design, has a BGreen and four TerSlash's.

Point is, while the HBlue might be leagues better than the MBlue, when the HBlue is found only in a single turret on a single class of destroyer, the MBlue is mounted as a battery weapon in corvettes and destroyers alike, and three MBlue's outperform an HBlue in everything except range.

EDIT: Hatsheptsut has 3 BVas's. Duh. Dunno why my brain slipped there. As far as placement goes, you can only fire all three at the same target if said target is a good distance (but not more than 4km) above the Hatshepsut. Head on, only one BVas can fire, but with a little maneuvering you can get another BVas and the SVas in there relatively quickly. The third BVas is rear-mounted.

The Fusion Mortars are rather iffy as far as reliable firepower goes. They have a max range of 2km, a very slow velocity of 100 m/s, and each individually does something like 100 damage. Assuming the target is maneuvering (which it really should be), it's far from reliably accurate, and its damage output is very slow and gradual over time. Also, 2km of range before you can even start firing is rather tiny, especially for a destroyer that would have difficulty closing to that distance on a target at its flank.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 07:09:50 pm by SaltyWaffles »
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Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I think it's BP canon (and maybe FS canon) that green beams were specifically designed for backwards compatibility, so it would be possible to retrofit them on the Great War cruisers and the Orion.  The Typhon, which is as old a design as the Orion, had serious problems with power grid overloads if multiple Vasudan beam cannons were put on it, according to its description.  I'm pretty sure this is the main reason why Vasudan beams were better than Terran ones in FS2. 

Just look at the Mjolnir if you want a Terran beam not designed for backwards compatibility.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 04:30:22 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
And despite it not having a beam atz all, the tech description says the Mentu should have one, guess it's a balancing reason, 'cause the Mentu with a beam cannon is...a beast.

And what are you trying to tell me Salty? The Hecate is crap, think we all agree that a Sobek can take it down, the heavy beam is usually the first thing to blow up, it's companion slasher following close by...and then? A slasher in the back...wow...
The Sobek it designed to be always on the attack, the Deimos is a multipurpose Corvette...
And still the Zods fared better in the second incursion and dealt with brushfire and other stuff after Capella.
Given the fact that the Zods now focus on node denial...what kind of capship would be good for that?
Long range artillery beams?

 
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
And despite it not having a beam atz all, the tech description says the Mentu should have one, guess it's a balancing reason, 'cause the Mentu with a beam cannon is...a beast.

And what are you trying to tell me Salty? The Hecate is crap, think we all agree that a Sobek can take it down, the heavy beam is usually the first thing to blow up, it's companion slasher following close by...and then? A slasher in the back...wow...
The Sobek it designed to be always on the attack, the Deimos is a multipurpose Corvette...
And still the Zods fared better in the second incursion and dealt with brushfire and other stuff after Capella.
Given the fact that the Zods now focus on node denial...what kind of capship would be good for that?
Long range artillery beams?

Well yeah, but the tech description for the Orion says it has dozens of turrets. It has something like 16.

The Deimos may be multipurpose, but the Sobek has enough field of fire and maneuverability to serve pretty well in most roles, too. The main difference is that the Deimos spreads its firepower out in both fields of fire and beam output, giving it a more flexible capability but less concentrated firepower. But in general, four TerSlash's definitely beat two VSlash's (consider the advantages in likelihood to take out subsystems and turrets, rate of fire, and greater difficulty in disarming beams due to having four spread out targets rather than two adjacent ones). The Sobek's main advantage is that it's smaller; at only slightly larger than a Sanctus, it's a better anti-ship combatant than a Deimos in most cases, with pretty good point defenses and durability, making it a well-rounded design that is more suited for anti-ship combat and offensive or interception action than the Deimos, which is better suited for anti-craft combat and all-around anti-ship combat. Frankly, the Deimos' only real flaw in its design is that its dorsal turrets are purely blob turrets; if one or two were STerPulse's, or even just flaks of some kind (balanced out by swapping one or two of the under-turrets with blobs, perhaps), it would be an extremely well rounded vessel. Honestly, the Deimos/Sobek pair is my favorite ship combo; the only one that comes close is perhaps the Chimera/Diomedes. They are both excellent ships that are flexible and versatile while covering each other's slight shortcomings in major areas perfectly. The Sobek is exactly the right kind of ship needed to complement the Deimos's in WiH--while the Deimos's are excellent general combatants and have the essential strength in point defense against UEF craft and warheads, they have trouble bringing the kind of firepower needed for quickly grinding a frigate down with slash beams, which is where the Sobek excels. And since the Sobek is itself pretty good in the point defense department, on top of being offensively oriented, small, and relatively nimble, it's a more fearsome pair than the dreaded Chimera/Bellerophon (mainly due to the fact that you could have three Deimos/Sobek pairs for every Chimera/Bellerophon pair, and the beams on the latter are very vulnerable to defanging attacks).

The Hecate's absurdly large and fragile emitters are the bigger problem, not their output. Not great for a destroyer, yes, but considering the Hecate is more of a fleet carrier, it is somewhat forgivable. The Hatshepsut's hangar capacity is about as much as a Raynor's (size-wize), where the Hecate has something like double that.

I thought the Terrans were the ones dealing with brushfire wars and stuff after Capella? And they handled them quite well, if the tech entries for the Pegasus, Hecate, and Perseus are any indication.

As for the Hecate versus a Sobek scenario...look, if the BGreen gets even a single shot off on the Sobek, that corvette is in deep trouble. Add in a few hits from TerSlash's, and it's down a big chunk of its health in the opening salvo. The real game-changer, though, is when the Hecate sorties four wings of bombers and blows the crap out of the corvette in under a minute. To put it one way, a missile destroyer would generally not fare well against a supercarrier because the supercarrier could sortie several wings of strike craft to drive off or destroy the missile destroyer well before said destroyer got in range (or could get enough missiles past the point defenses of the supercarrier and its escorts).

The Hecate isn't meant to operate alone; Severanti's blunder in Post Meridian was that he had a pitifully small escort group and then sent his only corvette out to charge two Karunas and several wings of fighters with minimal support. Had the Meridian had another two or three Deimos corvettes in that screen, and kept his fleet together and made a single, collected stand, he would either have escaped with minor damage to his ships or driven off the UEF attack. Sending his strike craft out to attack the UEF strike force piecemeal was also a big mistake.

The Hecate bombed the crap out of Luna. LUNA. One of humanity's biggest colonies, right on the doorstep of Earth, and heavily guarded by Home Fleet. With strikecraft alone, no less, showing the sheer power of the Hecate--where Severanti's Deimos escorts beyond the Juarez were during Post Meridian is a good question; they were essential in covering his destroyer's main weakness.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 07:17:56 pm by SaltyWaffles »
Delenda Est delenda est.

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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Severanti was in the process of being replaced. I think he just took all the ships he was able to assemble and made this one desperate attack quickly before he was no longer able to organize anything meaningfull.
The other ships were probably already sent of to somewhere else under Steels command.

 
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Severanti was in the process of being replaced. I think he just took all the ships he was able to assemble and made this one desperate attack quickly before he was no longer able to organize anything meaningfull.
The other ships were probably already sent of to somewhere else under Steels command.

I can't see that happening, really...why would Steele take away essential escort corvettes from a Hecate that isn't even under his command? And why then, right after the blitz? Why would he need that kind of backup when he's already got his whole fleet at Europa? It just leaves the Meridian open to an easy, lethal counterstrike whether or not it moves out to bomb Luna.

And Severanti would definitely be able to get more than one Deimos escort for an operation like that. I can't imagine Steele wouldn't allow two more Deimos corvettes to back him up when notified about the operation--even if he didn't approve of the strike, leaving a Hecate wide open like that after bombing Luna would be a huge risk for losing an entire destroyer with minimal enemy fleet losses. Hell, if Steele coordinated with Severanti even a little, he could just have Serkr or perhaps the Atreus ready to shock-jump the counterstrike force; lending the Meridian an AWACS would be more than worth that opportunity.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
In an head on approach and with your average AI...a Sobek will win.
The Bgreen has the range, sure, but it is dangerously exposed...I run a mission several times, playing with angles and all the stuff.
Head on, the Bgreen fires once, but the first or second salvo of the Vslash finishs that problem pretty quickly...
Sure it has bomber escort, but if we take those into account too...then there would be escorts on both sides and trust me, an angry Hati and Mentus with beams...wipe the floor....
A Typhon has 30 wings, the wiki talks about 60 - 180 Strikecraft, the Hecate 150+, the Hati is stated has having as much or more than a Typhon...
Hm...


 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I'm lost. What are we trying to discuss here again ?
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Terran-Vasudan relations I think.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Severanti was in the process of being replaced. I think he just took all the ships he was able to assemble and made this one desperate attack quickly before he was no longer able to organize anything meaningfull.
The other ships were probably already sent of to somewhere else under Steels command.
[...] Hell, if Steele coordinated with Severanti even a little,[...]
And here we have the core of the difference between our viewpoints.
I was under the impression that GTVA high command took Severantis command away and gave it over to Steele. But before he got shipped back to Delta Serpentis, Severanti somehow was able to scrounge together an attackforce and go for Luna, without Steels approval and/or knowledge.

There is of course also the possibility that they had a shared command and that Steele let Severanti run into the wall face-first to make sure Severanti was pulled back from Sol leaving Steele in full charge. Such behaviour would fit right in with the way he manipulated the Vasudans.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
No. Severanti was still in command of the Sol theatre until Post Meridian. Steele was just sent there as reinforcements, under the command of Severanti.

I refer you to Post Meridian's debriefing:
Quote
You should all be very proud. While we were unable to destroy the Meridian, our strike succeeded in forcing the destroyer to withdraw. Intelligence tells us that the Meridian has pulled back to Delta Serpentis. Better yet, the General Assembly is so displeased with Admiral Severanti's blunder here that they've relieved him of command and placed Steele in control of the Sol theatre.

This victory has important strategic ramifications. The GTVA is unlikely to take such bold action in the future without ensuring that additional destroyers are available for reinforcement. The more forces the GTVA holds back to reinforce endangered destroyers, the fewer ships they'll have attacking on the front line.

Incidentally, Admiral Calder of the Jovian Rim Fleet happens to disagree with this assessment. Now that Admiral Severanti is no longer in the Terran theater, Calder contends that Admiral Steele of the GTD Atreus will have free reign to use more aggressive tactics. If the Jovian's right, we should all brace for worse to come.
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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

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Offline The E

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Severanti was in the process of being replaced. I think he just took all the ships he was able to assemble and made this one desperate attack quickly before he was no longer able to organize anything meaningfull.
The other ships were probably already sent of to somewhere else under Steels command.
[...] Hell, if Steele coordinated with Severanti even a little,[...]
And here we have the core of the difference between our viewpoints.
I was under the impression that GTVA high command took Severantis command away and gave it over to Steele. But before he got shipped back to Delta Serpentis, Severanti somehow was able to scrounge together an attackforce and go for Luna, without Steels approval and/or knowledge.

There is of course also the possibility that they had a shared command and that Steele let Severanti run into the wall face-first to make sure Severanti was pulled back from Sol leaving Steele in full charge. Such behaviour would fit right in with the way he manipulated the Vasudans.

That's not exactly what happened. GTVA Command sent Steele and his BG to Sol to reinforce Severanti. Using these forces, Severanti was able to capture Artemis Station (Yes, Steele was the point man there, but he was acting under Severanti's orders), but this only reinforced the stress Severanti was under. After all, he was under increasing pressure to end the war quickly and decisively; a change of strategy he, as a rather cautious commander, was fundamentally uncomfortable with. Nevertheless, he tried to pursue an aggressive strategy, but due to his inexperience in executing high risk, high reward operations, he got his ass handed to him, thus causing GTVA High Command to recall him.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
So anyone place bets on how probable it is we see Steele really pissed off at a Vasudan general?

I'd place it at 90%.

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Yeah...but what does he need a general for?
He simply cannot afford to rage at a zod admiral, 'cause he need their support, wether he wants it or not.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I still place a 90% chance of us seeing Steele being pissed off at a zod general in WiH2. The rest of the thread should have given you enough clues on why this is entirely plausible at least.

 

Offline crizza

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
You get it, that a general has no command over space assets, do you?

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Generals are Army. Foot soldiers and tanks on the ground. They don't command warships.
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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
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batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
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Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
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Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline The E

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
US Air Force uses army ranks. Your argument is invalid.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Gah

Military is too damn complicated.

Anyway, I haven't seen anything about why Steele would be pissed at Zods. If anything, THEY would be pissed at HIM for lying to them during Deals in Shadow. Not that they have to find about that in the first place.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie