Author Topic: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion  (Read 24782 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I wouldn't place so much faith in an analysis that concludes that Japan's openness to the world was bad because they had wars. Let me put it this way: I wouldn't mind being a japanese right now.

It was bad for them because initially it forced them to be dependant on forign imports for even basic raw materials which automatically puts them at a disadvantage cost wise and puts the country at the mercy of supply availability of the rest of the world for even basic materials like Iron, a situation that continues today, the only way to break the situation was to aquire territory rich in resources, something only the desperate would do voulenteraly, especialy in the age when they were looking to do so leaving a war to grab land being the only remaining option.  WWII seriously screwed them over in the end and while a good deal of that was their own fault it dosnt change the results. 

so basically Japan always has been and remains especially vulnerable to economic preasure, especially in regards to material availability.

as for Battuta's post on the ideological/philosophical dimension, that is basically about Vasudan psychology and that is something that cant be ignored when talking about economics as psychology governs how people react to the idea of and go about trade between one and another, economics being the structure behind and measure of trade.
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Yes, I am deeply interested in Battuta's suggestion, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I'm just unsure on how to follow that train of thought right now.

However, I have to part ways when I see arguments for radical proteccionism taken as factual... I couldn't disagree more with the kind of parochial vision of the world that such arguments are implying.

Every country in the world has some kind of economic pressure from the outside. The fact that such pressures have caused wars is not, to my humble opinion, a product of globalization, but rather of deeply flawed politics by previous japanese generations.

EDIT: A loose analogy (to a personal scale) would be to say that to meet new people is "bad" because there are probably assholes out there, or you can pick up a fight, or be killed or whatever. Well, ok, I'm still confident that meeting new people is a very positive thing.

EDIT:

(Plus if you really think it's just "they had wars" you have no idea of the marks that World War 2 left on the country's psyche. It's difficult to comprehend for a non-Japanese just how deeply scarred the Japanese are regarding it and hence we have trouble understanding why they can't look directly and fairly at their own involvement in it.)

I said previously that I have ignorance on Japan's history, and I do not have the presumption to know all these things you mention. I can recognize these scars you mention on their art, manga, movies and so on, but those are merely shadows or hints of something really deep (what I mean to say you is that I do believe you).

However, despite the horrors of the wars, to blame globalization is still, from my point of view, unwarranted... not to say that things "can't **** up". Yeah, they can and probably do.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 10:58:01 am by Luis Dias »

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
the point I think you are missing is that Japan was trying to become an industrialised nation, problem is that the land they sit on has very little in the way of raw resources, where as one country might be able to export an excess of Iron and import copper to cover a shortfall, Japan has to import virtually _everything_ making them more vulnerable than most be a good margin, it is why they have had to become good a producing electronics and other high technology items, otherwise they would have nothing to export, and no exports means no money for imports and so on.
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
So your point is that in order to be competitive with the rest of the world they had to reinvent themselves and actually contribute something new and original to the world economy, then get to become the third largest economy of the world while doing so, amazingly wealthy... and... well I fail to see the downside. headdie, I'm somewhat lost in this discussion right now...

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
So your point is that in order to be competitive with the rest of the world they had to reinvent themselves and actually contribute something new and original to the world economy, then get to become the third largest economy of the world while doing so, amazingly wealthy... and... well I fail to see the downside. headdie, I'm somewhat lost in this discussion right now...

basically if Japan starts pissing people off, they are screwed, also they have to stay ahead of the development curve which is no easy feat in itself and a situation that only takes a small change in luck, a eurica moment in America, Germany or any number of other developed nations and it all changes.
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Isn't that also true in the opposite direction? Basically what I am getting from you is the observation that reality is fragile and things change.

That is an important observation, I'm not trying to diminish it btw. I think that exact fear was the driving force behind the Tev's incursion in Sol, and perhaps, dare I hypothesize, the main reason why Vasudans are now helping them.

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Right I am starting to loose track here, so we agree large economies are ultimately fragile, I think?

So we have the GTVA, their economy is basically doing ok, the Vasudans are doing markedly better then the Terrans and the Vasudans place at least some of the blaim for that at the door of the Portal Project?

so as I understand it the on topic debate revolves around how much impact the Portal Project has had on the Terran economy and the effects, potential and realised, traveling through have and will have on the Terran economy?
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I am not sure we can qualify the economy of the Tevs as "good".
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I never said good, I said ok, meaning nothing is particularly wrong, but could be doing better
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
While they're having difficulties, I don't think those difficulties are very economy-related by this point.  The Capella depression is almost certainly over.  The Sol gate is finished, which means resources and funding formerly allocated to that can now go elsewhere.  I'm sure the war is a part of that, but how big a part, we don't know. 

It's not the UEF economy, but it's doing alright.


 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Yes, so we could shift the discussion towards what Battuta was implying, a more "psychohistorian" analysis of the relationship between tevs and vasudans.

Quote from: Battuta
The Vasudans also doubtless made the case that on a sociopolitical level pinning the stability of the Terran half of the GTVA on a project with an uncertain outcome was a short-range patch and an ill-considered gamble. Again, the problem of centralization: by focusing loyalty as well as infrastructure on Sol the Terrans made themselves dependent on Sol. This was not a progressive move towards the Vasudan ideal of a society prepared to absorb enormous shocks, a society adapted to distributed existence across the node network.

So the next few words are rambling a bit, disorganized. Read them at your peril.

I'm interested in the last sentence and the ideology embebbed in it. So according to canon by Battuta, the destruction of Vasuda Prime had an effect on vasudan society of an "ordered anarchyzation", decentralization, (deregulation? for sure), liberalization? and so on. However, there is one leader, the emperor and so on. I am still unsure (ignorant) about all this vasudan structure, I can't capture it in my mind just yet.

The Tev's seem to me rather simple: a militaristic dictatorship that focused the economy in the building up of 1) a gate towards Sol and 2) a competent fleet (with all the social, political, etc. objectives outlined in Battuta's comments and mine as well). They are obsessed, while the Vasudans are at "peace" with the loss of their home planet. Vasudans may well be deeply jealous of terrans, etc.

However, it is the Tevs' that are willing to gamble something and it is the Vasudans who are afraid of the consequences?! Hm. I really don't know where to place Vasudan's thinking in all of this. Perhaps they are just annoyed at the whole shebang, and that's the whole story, but I doubt it. The main reason for doubting this is: it doesn't make for a good plot.

A good plot has interesting, provoking characters. And I do not see Battuta et al wasting the potential here :).

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
However, it is the Tevs' that are willing to gamble something and it is the Vasudans who are afraid of the consequences?! Hm. I really don't know where to place Vasudan's thinking in all of this. Perhaps they are just annoyed at the whole shebang, and that's the whole story, but I doubt it. The main reason for doubting this is: it doesn't make for a good plot.
The Zods are afraid of the consequences because they need the Terrans in good shape to face the great peril they have been preparing for for the past 18 years (the whole Jester thing) while the Terrans were so busy going home.

Even if Terran crap in Sol doesn't affect them directly and even if the Zods already have twice the fleet size of the Tevs, they definitely want them at their side, not with a broken fleet, not with a broken economy and definitely not stuck in a potential civil war (not the Sol war, but the one that might explode in Tev home systems if the Sol war goes for too long, the one that would make the NTF insurgency pale in comparison).
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Right...

So is there any special projection from the part of the Tev's or the Zod's in their psychohistorian megacomputers that are generating scenarios in which this political chaos in the tev's space is avoided by the inclusion of the Zod's in the battle against Sol?

One is forced to think that given the existence of these powerful scenario predictors, any big decision such as the inclusion of Vasudan forces in Sol is being strongly analysed by all camps (even by the Elders?). So how are the obvious problems of rising racism towards the Vasudans being countered? This gets into very problematic analysis from the moment the Zods take a more center stage.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
A central factor in free market economies is confidence. Consumers need to have confidence in the future of their careers and the market. Investors - this is huge - need to be able to expect predictable behavior both from central banks and from corporations. A pessimistic populace leads to pessimistic investment and pessimistic investment constrains economic development.

The Vasudans visualize history as a space occupied by the living and the dead, a symbol already written but not completely uncovered. Their economics are in no small part driven by a deep-set pragmatism: a people born in sorrow, die in sorrow. What came before drives what will be, and if that can be understood, that understanding will be accounted for in the future. Consider how this worldview might contribute to their resilience, their ability to swallow enormous blows and leverage them into growth.

Vasudan simulation and projection is driven by the desire to understand and catalogue history yet to come.

The Tevs are still the Lost Generation. They are haunted by past glory and past failure and now their leaders fence themselves in carefully planned, coldly calculated probability trees and gamed scenarios, hunting for ways to avoid catastrophe, willing to pay great prices to achieve success. They view economic and political and military strategy as a pathfinding exercise defined by accepting calculated risks and selecting good payoffs. Contrast with the deepset Vasudan pragmatism this machinery of selective injury, this embrace of extremes: if that is what it takes, then that is what we must do. It's pragmatism of a different order, not 'this is how the process will go' but 'this is where we can strike to make a difference'. It's a more volatile kind of foresight.

Tev simulation and projection is driven by the desire to avert catastrophe at any cost.

The Ubuntu simulation program is driven by a teological desire to garden and shape behavior. Where the Vasudans describe the shape of the historical equation and the Tevs work at a program of life support and damage control, the UEF government concerns itself with building feedback loops that drive humanity towards a destination. Understanding enables gentle intervention. Economic policy leverages incentives and behaviors, less top-down than the Tev calculus but without the Vasudan trust in the stalwart faith of the individual. The Vasudans trust themselves to be robust cogs in a byzantine machine; the Ubuntu program instead tries to rework the individual cog to improve the function of the whole, and back again in a cycle.

Ubuntu simulation and projection is driven by the careful control of a sandboxed system towards a definite end.

Luis Dias brings up the excellent question of how each approach handles escalating complexity and escalating uncertainty. The Vasudans believe that everything is certain in the end; they are comfortable with intricacy, in their language and conduct and politics, but they do not see intricacy or complexity as fearful. They lack the human heuristic of risk aversion.

The Tevs attempt to clamp variables aggressively to control complexity. They view a situation spiraling out of control as the worst possible outcome, because the consequences are so huge. They will pay extensive and dramatic prices for agency in a situation: burning nodes, employing military force, initiating massive projects to drive the economy.

Ubuntu attempts to compass escalating complexity by bootstrapping its own ability to simulate complexity. Risk aversion is tackled by embedding the individual investor or agent in a system which appears to comprehend and manage risk as a whole, even if the individual cannot grasp that whole.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
i love beepee

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
That is great clarification and commentary, thanks.

Was kinda wondering on the origins of the very psychohistorian concept per se, and how in that story a whole new empire was designed using a technique of converging temporal points of crisis into very specific and defined situations that would be "manageable" by the designer of the plan himself. This technique was very effective until a very far away point in time.

I bring this up because of the neat contrast you place between the love of intricacy by the Zods and the sheer risk aversion by the Humans in so doing. It makes me wonder how much of a difference that will render in the way the Zod's actions (if they do believe in agency) are structured.

It can point to two different ways: Either to a much more nuanced and comprehensive, complex web of actions that are all pointed toward their own (also rich and complex) purposes, a very pseudo-omniscient take on every single systemic problem, and so on; or to a much less alien concept of just "managing complexity".

Ubuntu seems much more deontologically inclined, trying to come up with general "laws" of complexity that may work in every scale or event, creating processes that by themselves assure that further events may align with their purposes. "Soft Power". More subtle, more idealistic, more subversive. Also seems slower and vulnerable to a quick change of events (say a 180 shift in the Tev's strategy in the war*)


Battuta has exposed in the above a really cool characterization that will inform how WiH2 will play out with each faction acting and reacting according to their own projections that stem from their own worldviews. The most interesting part is how the "new" alliance between the Vasudans and the Tevs will work out along the plot. Although in FS and FS2 there was next to zero opportunity to showcase how the differences in them affect the story, the tactics and so on, here we have a great potential of complete what-the-hell-is-gonna-happen-in-the-next-two-minutes dynamic in that Alliance as we play along.


* Note how deep the vulnerability was exposed: the very philosophy of Ubuntu was placed in check with the creation of the Wargods in response to a drastic change in the Tev's tactics of a blitzkrieg kind of a war.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
This thread is now officially beyond my mere English level.

Carry on.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
This thread is now officially beyond my mere English level.

Carry on.

I am English and that isn't helping much lol, I can understand the basics of what is being said but has gone beyond my ability to form a reasoned discussion point
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Luis Dias made a good post.

tl;dr: due to differing viewpoints and methods of prediction, everyone has competing predictive models for what's going to happen so come WiH R2 or BP3 nobody's going to know what the hell is going on.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
This thread is close to a major breakthrough that could synthesize some of the battle-to-battle tactical themes with the broader mythology much sooner than we expected.