[Nuke]

just add one new subsytem, $custom, and define its behavior with scripting. you can give it an alternate name, which you then read with scripting (or sexps) and do all the things neccisary for that subsystem type (in fact everything should have a custom mode that is defined with scripting). its fairly easy to do an interface screw that locks you out of your controls or throws in some noise or updates intermittantly.  you can throw in artifitial caps in velocity or rotation speed, cap afterburner speed, leak afterburner energy, force glide on or off. some of that scripting cant do but sexps surely can, and those can be called from scripts.

i know all you modders get tired of hearing this but learn scripting already. all you people who fred already know lisp more or less, so whats one more programming language? it takes some skills to edit tables that are just as common in a programmers toolset, so you already know the importance of names, variables, syntax, etc. id rather the coders work on core engine functionality that modding features. modding features might be easy to implement and have immediate payoff, but it adds load to codebase maintenance efforts.

[General Battuta]

One thing scripting will not enable you to do is create fun exciting missions and put them together into campaigns!

[Nuke]

only because no one has tried. scripting's place is general features, fred's place is mission scripting. you can use scripting for mission events, and you can use fred for general features (fredders seem to be really good at this), but there is little reason to. but if one could combine both disciplines such a modder would be a force to be reckoned with. such a shame i never became proficient with fred, i always get frustrated at the events editor not letting me do the thing i want to do and quit.

the lines are blurring though. the fred gods and scripting gurus arent really the issue,  they apply their skills well. its the modders who dont want to figure out how to mod and jump to the coders for features to make their ideas work. diversify your skill sets.

[General Battuta]

Most of the really high-octane current FREDders use scripts in their mission design so I'm not sure what you're going for here.

[Nuke]

the ones who demand features from coders, and then complain that they cant script when you tell them to use scripting.

[General Battuta]

Who has done that? Out of Karajorma, Axem, Goober, Spoon, myself, bigchunk, Ace, probably a couple others I'm missing?

[karajorma]

Diaspora and BP do both use scripting quite heavily.

But scripting does have limitations. We got a few questions asking why we didn't use the particle script for instance, the simple fact was that we did try and then found that 20-25% of CPU time was being spent on that script alone.

I can certainly understand Nuke's basic point that it might be an idea to ask for a script to do x before you ask for code to do the same thing. It would certainly take a lot of work off the coders, especially for features that only one mod wants. Let the code be for stuff that has to be fast, can be used by everyone, or can't be implemented in another way.

[mjn.mixael]

Makes sense. Though many of the coders double as the community's scripters.. so I'm not sure how much time it saves.

Though recently, Admiral MS has found a ton of scripting functions to be broken. That leads me to wonder how much bugfixing needs to happen before the scripting system gets fixed up? However, I'm pretty sure that Admiral MS is working on fixing many of the issues he has found. At times though, he still seems somewhat discouraged with the scripting system currently.

[Nuke]

i dont know if thats a case. if i see something thats broke, i usually fix it and then pass along a patch. most of the major scripters do this. i also see a lot of scripters add features to scripting on the c side. scripting is kind of a stepping stone to coding as well. i know i didnt bother writing any engine code till after i had already done some scripting.

as for bugs they aren't that bad. you can usually work around them. id be very interested to see the bugs that admiral ms has found. the scripting system is far from being crippled though. scripters usually understand the system enough to go in and fix things. i never produced bug reports, only patches.

[Dragon]

But scripting does have limitations. We got a few questions asking why we didn't use the particle script for instance, the simple fact was that we did try and then found that 20-25% of CPU time was being spent on that script alone.

You didn't use particle script ("you" as in "Diaspora", I assume)? I've seen configs, table files and everything in R1 VPs. How did you disable it? Also, do they actually look good? I'm sure my machine can take the load, people like me might want to re-enable it.

its fairly easy to do an interface screw that locks you out of your controls or throws in some noise or updates intermittantly.  you can throw in artifitial caps in velocity or rotation speed, cap afterburner speed, leak afterburner energy, force glide on or off. some of that scripting cant do but sexps surely can, and those can be called from scripts.

The question is, can you disable individual guns/missiles (not banks, gun points) with scripting? That was the idea that kind of started it all, and I took it from Wing Commander. If I was told I can have one thing from my list implemented, I'd pick that. I didn't see any functionality that would even hint at such a possibility though (I'm not a scripter though, so maybe I overlooked it).
Also, it'd need to play nice with dynamic primary linking calculations once Antipodes 8 gets commited. Speaking of which...

Lastly, if you bump MAX_RED_ALERT_SUBSYSTEMS or SUBSYSTEM_MAX then the new pilot files are incompatible with the old ones, old pilots will probably crash FSO on loading unless you add code to handle both old and new values.

I take it's all regarding the main branch. What about Antipodes 8? Would pilot code problems mentioned also apply to the new pilot code, or does it allow increasing those values with minimal problems?

[mjn.mixael]

i dont know if thats a case. if i see something thats broke, i usually fix it and then pass along a patch. most of the major scripters do this. i also see a lot of scripters add features to scripting on the c side. scripting is kind of a stepping stone to coding as well. i know i didnt bother writing any engine code till after i had already done some scripting.

as for bugs they aren't that bad. you can usually work around them. id be very interested to see the bugs that admiral ms has found. the scripting system is far from being crippled though. scripters usually understand the system enough to go in and fix things. i never produced bug reports, only patches.

This is somewhat silly... If I were to paraphrase what I think you are saying in total...

"People should stop making requests and learn scripting because scripting is better. If there are scripting bugs, work around them... or... make a patch, because if you can script, you can patch. It's not that hard."

So what you are saying is that for anyone to be worth their salt to you in modding, they need to script everything and then by extension be able to code enough to make sure their scripts work properly. Sounds more to me like you just think everyone should be like you.

[karajorma]

But scripting does have limitations. We got a few questions asking why we didn't use the particle script for instance, the simple fact was that we did try and then found that 20-25% of CPU time was being spent on that script alone.

You didn't use particle script ("you" as in "Diaspora", I assume)? I've seen configs, table files and everything in R1 VPs. How did you disable it? Also, do they actually look good? I'm sure my machine can take the load, people like me might want to re-enable it.

We took out the script file.

[Nuke]

i dont know if thats a case. if i see something thats broke, i usually fix it and then pass along a patch. most of the major scripters do this. i also see a lot of scripters add features to scripting on the c side. scripting is kind of a stepping stone to coding as well. i know i didnt bother writing any engine code till after i had already done some scripting.

as for bugs they aren't that bad. you can usually work around them. id be very interested to see the bugs that admiral ms has found. the scripting system is far from being crippled though. scripters usually understand the system enough to go in and fix things. i never produced bug reports, only patches.

This is somewhat silly... If I were to paraphrase what I think you are saying in total...

"People should stop making requests and learn scripting because scripting is better. If there are scripting bugs, work around them... or... make a patch, because if you can script, you can patch. It's not that hard."

So what you are saying is that for anyone to be worth their salt to you in modding, they need to script everything and then by extension be able to code enough to make sure their scripts work properly. Sounds more to me like you just think everyone should be like you.

thats not what im saying at all. what im saying is that scripting will make you better modders. and stop bugging coders with things that can be done with scripting! they are busy enough.

that is separate from the things i said about scripters actually having a record for maintaining/patching/expanding the scripting system. all major scripters that i know of have submitted scripting patches and other code. id argue against scripting taking away from coder time and turn it around to say that new scripters are likely to turn into coders rather that scripting taking time away from existing coders.

modders certainly should not be like me, if they were they would never get anything done.

[karajorma]

I tend to find that in general modders tend to branch out into coding. Many of the better FREDders have tried it too. In a way it's pretty understandable, scripting, FREDding and coding all require similar mindsets.

The reason I got into C++ coding was that I wanted a feature and got bored of waiting for the SCP to add it. I know other FREDders have done the same thing.


Nuke does raise a good point. I've frequently seen someone get told that a minor feature they want can be scripted (or made with SEXPs for that matter) only for them to continue to ask for it to be added to the code cause that's easier. While that might be true for the modder in question, it's not as easy for the coder as them doing nothing. So yeah, it does drain coder time that could be spent elsewhere.

[mjn.mixael]

I'm not arguing or against any of that. I do, however, take issue with the idea that I need to know how to script to be a good modder, to the extent that I'm supposed to do "general features" with scripting just because someone thinks that's the "right" way to do it, as opposed to just doing it with SEXPs.

Axem, for example, is already a "force to be reckoned with" in modding... I know he uses a few scripts (especially more recently), but he does a whole crapton in FRED with SEXPs. So.. a little less of the "SCRIPTING IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE" in my face, plz.

You like to use a mallet? Cool, I prefer a hammer.

[Spoon]

I fred, model, 'texture', convert, table, 'write' and draw.
**** no I'm not going to add even more to that by learning scripting when there are coders around that can actual wrap their head around code.
If you think that makes me a 'bad modder' or at least 'not worth my salt' then I can only tell you "**** you, go actually release something". Kthx

/rant

[karajorma]

You do realise you're arguing against a strawman here, right? Nuke never said that to be a good modder you need to be able to script. He never said that any modder worth his salt can script either, that was mjn's comment.

I think it's best if people calm down and try to grasp the point actually being made here.

Nuke said that being able to script in addition to other skills would make you a better modder. This is undeniably true. Being able to script, code, FRED, table, model or texture will make anyone who currently can't a better modder.
 Just cause you can't do one of those doesn't make you a bad modder but only a fool could possibly argue if you gained those skills it wouldn't make you better.

I'm not arguing or against any of that. I do, however, take issue with the idea that I need to know how to script to be a good modder, to the extent that I'm supposed to do "general features" with scripting just because someone thinks that's the "right" way to do it, as opposed to just doing it with SEXPs.

Axem, for example, is already a "force to be reckoned with" in modding... I know he uses a few scripts (especially more recently), but he does a whole crapton in FRED with SEXPs. So.. a little less of the "SCRIPTING IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE" in my face, plz.

I guess I'm used to Nuke being somewhat tactless.

I can't say I really disagree with him though. I suspect that some of the stuff people like Axem do with SEXPs, would be done with scripts if people like him knew the scripting engine better. While they can be done with SEXPs, they can be done more easily in lua. It's similar to the way that I add things to the code now, that years ago I'd have figured out how to do in FRED, simply because it's easier than doing it in FRED.

Did I need to learn how to code in order to be a good FREDder? **** no! Has it made me a better FREDder? **** yes! As far as I know, there isn't anyone who FREDs, scripts and codes (although it looks like Axem is taking some steps to become the first). Would learning how to script make me a better FREDder? **** yes it would! In fact, this entire thread is making me realise that I've made somewhat of a mistake leaving the scripting up to other people when I should have learned how to do it myself.

While there is nothing wrong with building an elaborate control system in FRED (and **** knows I've done that enough times and I'll probably keep doing it), sometimes it might have been smarter to do that work in lua where it would be more portable.
I've lost count of the number of times I've seen the exact same events in multiple missions. Hell, you can even see examples in Diaspora (tube launches and combat landings are good examples). If you can do that in lua then, yes, it is objectively better to have done it in lua. If there is a bug, you only have to fix it in one place, rather than loading every single mission to fix it. Newbie FREDders can also easily take advantage of your work in a way that they can't if you FREDded it. The main reason tube launches and combat landings were left out of the Diaspora FRED walkthrough was that they were far too complicated to expect a newbie to work with. WCS has the same issue with their autopilot stuff.
 And that's before we start talking about being able to share stuff cross-project. I suspect it's this sort of thing that Nuke was on about when he said you shouldn't use FRED for general features. Not the complicated stuff you do for only one mission.

[Iss Mneur]

Makes sense. Though many of the coders double as the community's scripters.. so I'm not sure how much time it saves.

Because writing lua is faster and less error prone than writing C/C++.  This is why there is a continual drive for higher and higher level languages.

In fact, thinking about this now, I am sure that implemented the .tbl system primarily so that the game designers had a high level domain specific language to create the weapons, ships, etc, and secondarily so that the game designers could tweak the data without involving the "coders".  The same applies to SEXPs.

Though recently, Admiral MS has found a ton of scripting functions to be broken. That leads me to wonder how much bugfixing needs to happen before the scripting system gets fixed up? However, I'm pretty sure that Admiral MS is working on fixing many of the issues he has found. At times though, he still seems somewhat discouraged with the scripting system currently.

Code that doesn't get used, rots. Plain and simple. The only way to know what is broken is to try it and find it.  I have no doubt that Admiral MS is getting that stuff fixed, he certainly knows what he is doing.

[karajorma]

All the more reason for me to learn. I think m|m is the only SCP coder who regularly works with scripting at the moment.

[mjn.mixael]

Well screw it then. I suppose ya'all can add this to the list of things I won't do that makes me a poor modder. You can be the jack of all trades and master of none. I have the things that I do well. I'd rather spend my time getting even better at those skills. But the next time someone comes asking for renders from me, I'll ask what they've done to learn to do rendering, because I submit that's a modding skill too. Everyone should learn everything so that no one has to waste their time helping others out.

BAM. Peace out.