[Spoon]

I don't tend to analyse my gaming that much, it's simply a like/dislike without wondering too much about the why.

A simple "Played it, liked it" or a "Played it, liked it 'cept for xxx" is still better than *nothing*. It takes up less than a minute of your time to post and it makes you visible for the creator as 'one of the guys on hlp that played it. Swell guy.'

I still think thread activity is an utterly irrelevant factor. Probably one of the less relevant of all. For example, I've played almost everything that was released since I joined the community plus nearly everything I could find on the wiki. Did I make review posts for them ? Hell no, I'm no native English speaker and most of the time one awesome reviewer like Spoon already said what I would have said long before I do and much better than I would have. There's a point where there's no need to repeat what's been said. If you start demanding that each guy playing your mod go post in a thread, you're gonna have a bad time.

If you want more relevant numbers, you'd want downloads numbers. I need to bug achtung to see if there's a way to track DL numbers on FSMods...

You are badly missing the point, Matth.
Download numbers are just that, numbers. Usable for epeen comparison or what? Reread Axem's post again.
Thread activity is a very relevant factor.

Hell no, I'm no native English speaker and most of the time one awesome reviewer like Spoon already said what I would have said long before I do and much better than I would have. There's a point where there's no need to repeat what's been said.

There is plenty of reason to repeat what has been said before.
For example poster A says: "The missiles in this mod are bloody ****ing useless"
Poster B in response says: "Your face is bloody ****ing useless, l2p"
What the creator of the mod sees: "Hmmm, one guy has issues with the missiles. One guy doesn't. If only I had more feedback on this, I could maybe alter some of the missiles stats for the next release."
Meanwhile, poster C and D are in silent agreement with poster A but don't post because they don't want to repeat what's been said.

Poster A says: "I really liked this feature!"
Poster B and C says nothing, why mimic what has just been said?
What the creator of the mod sees: "Hmmm, only one guy makes mention of that feature... Guess it wasn't really worth the weeks of effort to implement it."

[NGTM-1R]

You are badly missing the point, Matth.

I don't think he is. I write stories and post them online. When a new chapter goes up, it's not uncommon to see up to four hundred hits that day and for five to six days after you get about one hundred and twenty-five a day. Then it's down to maybe twenty for a couple months and then a tiny trickle of two or three every couple of days.

Of that, four people will offer comment per chapter on average, most of them being repeat offenders in that department. Another four on average will watchlist the story, favorite it, or both. One person will reply to your reply to their review, sometimes. That's it. (And I've seen a chapter generate 2000 individual IP address hits on the first day and nobody comments until two days later.)

The bottom line is that you're going to get a very limited response from the ultimate consumers and on some level you've got to accept that. People don't call up the restaurant they eat at  and say "hey that was great"; they don't send thank-you notes to the designers of their favorite videogames. If anything, for the size of the community HLP is incredibly profuse in providing feedback.

EDIT: We have, what? Ten thousand total members? I have no idea what the demographic breakdown is but I can't imagine more than couple thousand are currently actively visiting. Accounting for the fact that not everything will interest everyone, and a noticeable fraction of the people visiting here aren't likely to be interested in work that's not Diaspora you're left with...maybe five hundred people who could actually leave a comment on an individual project with ease? Getting seventy is something of an accomplishment by that standard.

[Spoon]

I don't even see what you are trying to argue here?
We're saying: "Feedback, reviews and comments are motivational (aka thread activity)"
You are saying: "Well you are WRONG, thread activity is IRRELEVANT" 

[NGTM-1R]

I don't even see what you are trying to argue here?

I'm arguing that if you're doing this for someone's approval, then as in most things in life, you are doing it wrong.

Also I'm arguing that the fact you think download statistics are irrelevant is pretty goddamn stupid because it's the most reliable indicator of how many people were actually interested. People can post in threads for crap they've never played with ease; but they've got to get the vps or the mission files to actually play it. You are never going to get more than a tiny fraction of the public to say they're interested to you. (Much less why. Jesus Christ, don't let me start on getting people to say why.) At some point you're going to have to accept that and gauge interest by other measures, whether it's your hit counter or your download numbers.

[Luis Dias]

As a professional creator myself, I'd say that while your sentiment is noble, NG (I also like to think I create things that I personally approve of, that are "for me" and so on), it's undeniable we are social animals and after such a crappy lenghty after hours work to get **** done, it's really not at all inspiring to get feedback like "meh, that was okay I guess" or smth. It might not be rational to expect appraisal, but that's nevertheless what you want, what you aspire to, and you do feel disappointed and frustrated if you don't get it.

[Spoon]

Wow. Well I couldn't disagree with you more on this. And here I was thinking I was cynical as ****. Glad to see there is still bigger fish around.

I'm arguing that if you're doing this for someone's approval, then as in most things in life, you are doing it wrong.

No U.
Really, what a dumb statement.
All of these mods are being done for absolutely free. This isn't a restaurant where you pay to get food. We modders don't get anything out of this aside from the joy of creating something cool and then the joy of seeing people enjoy playing what we've created and talking about it. If you take away that last part then you might as well not release anything at all. Since according to you, we're doing it wrong. Might as well masturbate and keep it to ourselves.

Also I'm arguing that the fact you think download statistics are irrelevant is pretty goddamn stupid because it's the most reliable indicator of how many people were actually interested.

And I think your idea about only caring about some download number is pretty ****tard stupid.
If I were to release something tomorrow that would get 100.000 downloads but not a single comment/feedback/review/whatever posted. I would quit the day after. Cause all I would have to show for my effort is the meaningless number '100.000'.

People can post in threads for crap they've never played with ease; but they've got to get the vps or the mission files to actually play it. You are never going to get more than a tiny fraction of the public to say they're interested to you. At some point you're going to have to accept that and gauge interest by other measures, whether it's your hit counter or your download numbers.

See what I said above.
I'll never ever accept your view on this.
You keep writing for your hit counter if that what drives you. But that would never motivate me ever.

WoD may have gotten around 1000-1500 downloads or something maybe 2000. I'm not completely sure. Who I am grateful to are the people that have taken enough of an interest to post in the WoD forums. Provided me with the joy of seeing silly discussions about Cyrvan biology or reading the cool review that bigchunk1 wrote back in the day. It's the kind of stuff that made the effort put into it feel worthwhile. And while it's cool that those 1450 other people took an interest. They are nothing more than a number on my download counter to me.

[NGTM-1R]

If I were to release something tomorrow that would get 100.000 downloads but not a single comment/feedback/review/whatever posted. I would quit the day after. Cause all I would have to show for my effort is the meaningless number '100.000'.

As opposed to the meaningless number of thread replies Axem cited as a problem? (And how many actual individual people posted in those threads, I wonder? Probably significantly lower than the number of replies in the threads, since there will be replies and conversations and the person who released will post as well.)

If that is truly your mind, you are welcome to do so. But it also means that a goodly number of people, even allowing for a really ****ty host and really dedicated efforts to download it probably above ten thousand people, wanted to try playing what you made. Apparently their opinion simply doesn't count as far as you are concerned. That is far more cynical than any possible citation of observed evidence.

I write because I enjoy writing first; I share it because I think someone else might enjoy it as well. I'd keep posting new chapters if the hit counter was zero. (I pretty much did, when it came to writing IAR.) In fact I only looked at it for the first time in four months and seven or eight chapter releases for different works just for purposes of this discussion. So make up whatever bull**** you want about me personally, but keep in mind it's bull****.

[The E]

The discussions surrounding a creation are what motivates me as a creator. I am with Spoon on this one, if 10 people play something I was involved in and are interested enough in it that they feel the need to discuss it, that's more valuable to me than a number of total downloads.

[General Battuta]

The discussions surrounding a creation are what motivates me as a creator. I am with Spoon on this one, if 10 people play something I was involved in and are interested enough in it that they feel the need to discuss it, that's more valuable to me than a number of total downloads.

agreed

[NGTM-1R]

The discussions surrounding a creation are what motivates me as a creator. I am with Spoon on this one, if 10 people play something I was involved in and are interested enough in it that they feel the need to discuss it, that's more valuable to me than a number of total downloads.

That's fine. I don't disagree with that as a motivation to work. Although it's pretty neutral. (If they discussed why it was bad only, what happens?)

But acting as if the download counter doesn't mean a damn thing is pretty much incomprehensible. They didn't all accidentally click except for the ones who posted; a lot of them wanted whatever was in that download, and dismissing that as a measure of your success with the audience, especially after building up a record of releases so people have an idea of what they'll get, is bizarre and wrong.

EDIT: And if you're really not looking for reasons to get motivated so much that you'll dismiss an obvious sign people wanted your work, there's something...unhealthy about your desire to keep working; almost masochistic. I don't watch the hit counter much but it still makes me happy to see it go up. I don't see many reviews, but I still like getting them.

[Luis Dias]

Problem is, NG, numbers are cold and meaningless per se. You want human feedback. Qualitatitve feedback, not quantitative. Hell, one single intelligent appraisal from someone you respect is worth thousands of meaningless download clicks.

[NGTM-1R]

Problem is, NG, numbers are cold and meaningless per se.

Numbers without context.

A download count has context. Someone acted here, deliberately did something. You might as well say that voting tallies are cold and meaningless.

[Spoon]

Problem is, NG, numbers are cold and meaningless per se. You want human feedback. Qualitatitve feedback, not quantitative. Hell, one single intelligent appraisal from someone you respect is worth thousands of meaningless download clicks.

Yup.

Problem is, NG, numbers are cold and meaningless per se.

Numbers without context.

A download count has context. Someone acted here, deliberately did something. You might as well say that voting tallies are cold and meaningless.

It's funny that you dismiss thread reply numbers as 'meaningless' and then you post this.

[General Battuta]

This is the HLPest thread. Well-intentioned debate on how to make major content creators feel better derailed by semantic argument about the philosophy of artistic satisfaction. Gonna print and frame

e for content: I still believe the best thing we can do is foster a culture of pluralistic, heterodox appreciation - in-depth, thoughtful posts even when something didn't really work for you, and a recognition of how the campaign in question advances and speaks to others in the medium. The BP forum thrives on its excellent, thoughtful posters, and I've tried to bring some of that to other campaigns via that one thread. Having someone think in depth about your campaign makes it worth it like nothing else.

[NGTM-1R]

It's funny that you dismiss thread reply numbers as 'meaningless' and then you post this.

It's funny you're outright lying about the fact that the reply numbers being meaningless was a mockery of your idea that download counts are meaningless

[Luis Dias]

I thought of making a funny, saying that if you regard modding as an election process, then you are doing it wrong, but I think that perhaps the discussion is just prolonging itself to some silly extremes...

[General Battuta]

It's funny that you dismiss thread reply numbers as 'meaningless' and then you post this.

It's funny you're outright lying about the fact that the reply numbers being meaningless was a mockery of your idea that download counts are meaningless

Holy **** dude, what the ****

[NGTM-1R]

Holy **** dude, what the ****

You have another way to take his comment?

I mean if he's completely unwilling to try and follow internal logic in the series of posts that doesn't reflect great on him either, but he's smart enough to do so, and I like to assume he's serious enough about the argument to try.

I really do respect Spoon (probably obvious from the cheerleading commentary earlier) but he can get stuck in a snit too.

[General Battuta]

I often respect your points but you really need some debate settings other than 'escalate, ES-CA-LATE'

[NGTM-1R]

I often respect your points but you really need some debate settings other than 'escalate, ES-CA-LATE'

I think that's what my second reply to him was. (No seriously, I really did try to be significantly less offensive than his post.)

It apparently didn't work if he's just going to out-of-context driveby.