Author Topic: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)  (Read 43253 times)

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Offline qwadtep

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
When I played Transcend, I had nightmares for a while.   I'd close my eyes, start to nod off and...
Don't worry. There's absolutely nothing in UT like that...  :lol:

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
 The blue screen of death was a 'beta' placeholder for when you turned around.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I also wondered what that was. It could have been a very harsh and brutal fourth wall breaking... with a shriek (or a giant beep). What a jumpscare that would be.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I also wondered what that was. It could have been a very harsh and brutal fourth wall breaking... with a shriek (or a giant beep). What a jumpscare that would be.

That was the original concept, but after a bunch of testing (and the obvious issue of non-Windows platforms) we decided it just didn't work. Plus the BSOD doesn't even look the same across all platforms!

A video card failure pattern might have been a good time though

 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
A video card failure pattern might have been a good time though

That would certainly have made me **** my pants since my current computer setups are still fairly new and untested.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Ok so I finally finished Tenebra.

e: Ok, so an initial thought that I don't think anyone here has produced so far IIRC. The Vishnans talk about an apocalypse and how the Protocol was forged then, and then mention the "Summed Psyche". There is random mentioning of the noosphere and so on (when the Shivan node first mentioned how the noosphere was being subverted, I thought it was talking about how the Vishnans were subverting humanity).

Now, I had misread the term "Apocalypse" as if a great galactic war had surged eons ago and to prevent it a new "Protocol" was created. I was obviously confusing two very different events (the "Dawn War" and the "Apocalypse"). Apocalypse is not, in its original greek, a "disastrous destructive event" per se. It actually translates to a "disclosure of knowledge", or in more biblical terms, Revelation of the Ultimate Truth (and thus the end of the world and so on). Right afterwards the Shivan refer to the death of Brahmans and the "making" of the Vishnans.

So here's my initial interpretation: After this (still to understand) first "Dawn War", the Brahmans reached enlightenment. With it, they created the first noosphere, and this event is referenced as "the apocalypse". We can think of it as a special case of Singularity, which involves the control over Subspace (and therefore time and therefore travel between universes and other crazy abilities we already know of) by a gestalt composed of the entirety of the Brahman species' consciousness. That thing is now called "Vishnans". The Vishnans were "made" in that event and thus the "Brahmans" disappeared. The Vishnans are the transcended Brahmans.

The Shivans have a similar "anima". We could speculate (or not) if this anima was born out as an autonomic response to the sudden appearance of the Vishnans (as a kind of a super strategy against "godlike" creatures like the Vishnans), but then we also know that the Vishnans seem to try to convince the Shivans they speak for the Terminal Protocol, which is something that apparently the Shivans think is very important. However, they also reach the conclusion that the Protocol has failed. Failed to do what? The Brahmans' bidding. So the Shivans are both serving the Brahmans' wishes (which would indicate they are a creation of them) and are also eternal ("calculated", "eternal").

There's an apparent contradiction in here. It may be solved in two ways. The first involves a bit of convoluted writing. Here it goes. The definition of the Vishnans is one that allows them to observe the "past, present and future" all alike. Thus, even if they "came about" when Brahmans transcended, they can "see" and "influence" at every single time in the universe as they please. And they can calculate a new "species" that lives "forever" in this spacetime like a supercharged Von Neumman like species with "immune system" characteristics as MP outlined a few days back. In this fashion the Shivans could have been both eternal and a creation of the Brahmans. This is, however, inconsistent with the fatalistic observation by the Shivans (they watched Brahmans come and go, they will have watched the Vishnans go away too).

The second way is to say that the Shivans are indeed independent from the Brahmans, but their objectives aligned against a common threat. The threat of the Cognocide.



So, finally, we get to my wild speculation. The First Apocalypse was the Singularity of the Brahmans. It was a marvelous creation, that of the Vishnans. The Vishnans now exist in a transcendental state, in subspace no less, within an enlightened "noosphere" called "Summed Psyche". The unexpected side effect was that this event "ended the world" for the conscient beings all over the galaxy/universe. It was a "cognicaust". And so the Brahmans died. And for whatever reason, the Shivans didn't like this event at all. And so a Protocol was formed between the Vishnans and the Shivans, a kind of a deal that allowed the Vishnans to capture whatever kind souls would reach enlightenment to its Summed Psyche before they triggered a "second apocalypse", and allowed the Shivans to destroy whatever infecting "Hegemon" the Vishnans would deem "unworthy" before those triggered their own apocalypse.

Since the war started in Sol, the Vishnans finally gave up completely and ordered the cull. However, the Shivans are not playing their part due to an external heuristic. Some guessed this "external heuristic" was Bosch. I haven't decided yet. What is striking is that the Federation's "ultimate" weapon is nicknamed "Shambhala" whose wikipedia page is phenomenal. I could go out on a limb and say that it would be so ****ing cool that Shambhala was a Singularityzation machine, thus provoking the second incursion of the Apocalypse. However, this would be an affront to both Shivan and Vishnans, so it's somewhat inconsistent with the Vishnans refusal to mess up with the Elders to stop it from happening or the Shivans apparently being all-okay with it.

Still, I think the morality play here will be about humanity's redemption, about the ideas of the singularity, the danger of complete Cognicide (local or universal), the questionable morality and rationality of the Vishnan gatekeepers and the utter amorality and unconsciousness of the Shivans.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 05:26:53 am by Luis Dias »

 

Offline Qent

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Posting in major spoilers thread before finishing for shaaaaaaaaaaame.

 

Offline Leeko

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I've had a hunch for a while now that Shambhala is some device for uploading humans (most of them? the elders? just one? I don't know) to the Summed Psyche to join the Vishnan collective being. But, eh, that would be a little strange given Luis Dias' proposed scenario about the genesis of the Vishnans, which is another thing I've guessed at. Given the now-overt transhumanist themes present in BP it seems highly likely. Or maybe it's a Nagari weapon? Imagine if one side of the war had Shivan-level access to Nagari. To be able to just... open someone's mind like a book. Remember the UT scene with the Herc II from the Aquitaine's Kappa wing? They opened his mind and saw through his eyes. That would end the war in a day. Unlimited powaaaaaaah. :drevil:

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Yes Leeko, your first idea was somewhat what I was trying to describe. A backdoor for access to the Summed Psyche. It's cloudy how exactly this door would stop the Shivan threat.

I guess it would just preclude it, by uploading the entire human (and perhaps vasudan) race to the Summed Psyche, the Shivans would no longer be a threat to them. Many problems here, if the intent is to save the entirety of the human race (and the zods why not). First of all, it's a very immoral initiative, to force every human (and zod) to be uploaded to the Summed Psyche; second, it's verissimilitude is akin to Mass Effect 3's Green Option, i.e., hogwash ad-hoc and deus-ex-machina level. OTOH, it could be a more "reasonable" project of uploading just a few thousand / million to the Psyche.

There's also the problematic of it not being exactly a weapon. And why would Calder ever fight for this scenario, so grim and full of cynicism towards all those who either are culled or immorally pulled out of their bodies? Why would Laporte? Why would we even want humanity to get into a Psyche so commited to wipe out humanity in the first place?

A solution would be a kind of an "infiltration", to do what (analogously) Ken may be doing within the Shivan network: to create an alternative heuristic that saves humanity and the zods.

Very convoluted.

Your second idea is much more straight, more Fedayeen-like, use the Nagari network to infiltrate Tevs (or cut their consciences using the Great Darkness) and thus end the war. It is still an immoral path, and the Vishnan might not like this abuse of their networks.

What we have to do is consider the Elders stance with the Vishnans, and what they both intended in the production of the machine. Why the design is somewhat altered (Ken said so), by whose faction, and for what purpose. I speculate a machine with a specific design that attempts to appease some sort of a Vishnan goal but which will be hacked by Laporte with a precision strike to change it against both the Elders' and the Vishnans' wishes. More in tune with Ken.

Which means a moral decision at the end. It pains me, but there's a possibility of a (near?) final mission where you get to this Crucible Shambhala, and you get to decide the final outcome of humanity: will it be a RED ending, a PURPLE one, or the glorious amazing THIRD one?

I'm jesting. Battuta et al know better :lol:

 
Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Ever since WiH1 I was convinced that the Fererations final contingency involves summoning Vishnans to Sol. It's still not out of the question given information from Tenebra.

I'm not sure how Nagari itself could be used as a weapon. The way I understood it the Shivans could only gaze into the minds of a minority of Nagari sensitive Terran pilots not any human being they choose to.


 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Luis, If you heaven't, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki

 

Offline Gray113

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I always suspected that Shambhala was a device used to control subspace. I got this from the various hints dropped in game such as
Quote
"What good would a weapon have done us? You must understand that Shambhala is an answer to a problem that predates this war by decades."

Quote
"The Elders cooperated with the Vishnans in an effort to move humanity towards enlightenment - an unknown form of cognitive and social re-engineering, perhaps culminating in merger with the Vishnan subspace psyche"
Reading about Shambhala on wikipedia describes a fabulous kingdom of whose reality is visionary or spiritual as much as physical or geographic. This looks to be the noosphere - perhaps shambala is the device that will take Sol into the Vishnan's home dimension, a dimension where the shivans cannot reach or maybe a device that can control subspace preventing hostile forces from traversing subspace in Sol. If so it is easy to understand why the security council would want to prevent this from being developed as whatever happened they would have to surrender to the Elder's will in order to be saved from the Shivans.

 
Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I'm not sure how Nagari itself could be used as a weapon. The way I understood it the Shivans could only gaze into the minds of a minority of Nagari sensitive Terran pilots not any human being they choose to.

Except Nagari-sensitive people are the ones the Shivans choose to.

It's not that the Shivans can mess with people because they're Nagari-sensitive... instead, the people are Nagari-sensitive because the Shivans messed with them.

Nagari-sensitivity is not natural, not random, and is not something any human being or Vasudan is born with. It's a result of contact with one of the two uber-races.

I believe Ken spells this out in "Universal Truth".
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

"You can fight like a krogan, run like a leopard, but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard!"

 

Offline Valiran

  • 25
Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I always suspected that Shambhala was a device used to control subspace. I got this from the various hints dropped in game such as
Quote
"What good would a weapon have done us? You must understand that Shambhala is an answer to a problem that predates this war by decades."

Quote
"The Elders cooperated with the Vishnans in an effort to move humanity towards enlightenment - an unknown form of cognitive and social re-engineering, perhaps culminating in merger with the Vishnan subspace psyche"
Reading about Shambhala on wikipedia describes a fabulous kingdom of whose reality is visionary or spiritual as much as physical or geographic. This looks to be the noosphere - perhaps shambala is the device that will take Sol into the Vishnan's home dimension, a dimension where the shivans cannot reach or maybe a device that can control subspace preventing hostile forces from traversing subspace in Sol. If so it is easy to understand why the security council would want to prevent this from being developed as whatever happened they would have to surrender to the Elder's will in order to be saved from the Shivans.
The word "noosphere" piqued my memory, reminding me of a word I'd seen before.  Nootropics are drugs, supplements, and foods intended to enhance mental functions, with the word itself being derived from the Greek words νους nous, or "mind," and τρέπειν trepein meaning "to bend/turn".  So if "noosphere" means "mindsphere", the context it is used in means it almost certainly refers to the Vishnans' subspace/collective psyche.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Youtube fu. Tracking down the nasheed song in the dreamscape and finally done it, without ever referencing Freespace or BP. Then realized the uploader was .... Darius.

 

Offline Qent

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
See here.

 

Offline -Sara-

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I wonder how much of a parallel 'The Nothing (click link)' from The Neverending Story might be to the Great Darkness, in similarity. The Nothing was created through apathy, cynicism and the denial of dreams: the refusal to outgrow the status-quo of both life and existence.
Currently playing: real life.

"Paying bills, working, this game called real life is so much fun!" - Said nobody ever.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Having read the entries, it seems to me that the tech room entry of the "Great Darkness" may not be a representation of an entity at all, a "worm" or a "parasite" or any other "thing" that creeps in fantasia Nagari or realspace or whatever.

If not for a direct reference of a "Great Darkness" coming by the Great Keeper in AoA, I'd say that this entry is only an opportunity by the writers to make the players directly question the Fermi Paradox. Why are the skies silent? Why is the universe an apparent wasteland? Why is the universe a "great darkness"?

I really enjoyed that connection Sara, but I don't think BP writers are taking this story in such an allegorical manner. They have stated that this is hard sci-fi to the core, and while my childhood would be a lot poorer without Neverending, that story dwells in an extremely poetic, metaphorical and allegorical way.

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
 An intriguing plot twist (which is something I wanted to make a game around one day) would be that 'the skies' are dark because of a predisposition towards war all life in the universe has.
 They care not about learning of alien cultures, opening new ways of thinking, creating new worlds or exploring realms.
 It's empty because they kill each other mercilessly instead. No one cares about the mysteries of new worlds, just as we crave for explosions and death of foreign, unknown to us, people in films.

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
If not for a direct reference of a "Great Darkness" coming by the Great Keeper in AoA, I'd say that this entry is only an opportunity by the writers to make the players directly question the Fermi Paradox. Why are the skies silent? Why is the universe an apparent wasteland? Why is the universe a "great darkness"?
I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that the "great darkness" in AoA was the Sathanas, not THE Great Darkness.

The Great Darkness is definitely a thing. See the cargo containers in Ken.