Author Topic: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]  (Read 33328 times)

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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]

They are getting bored with the basic gameplay that FS2 offered, which has been replicated by a hundred user-made campaigns.


speak for yourself.  i still replay the FS2 campaign, and still enjoy it every time.  i like freespace because i like dogfighting in space.

i enjoy BP for its extreme production quality, new ships and weapons, and well thought out (if overly emotional for my personal taste) fan-written story.  i DO like the opportunity for novel gameplay in WiH, but AoA will always be my favorite from a pure gameplay perspective.  pretty much the only thing holding it back from having as many replays as retail is sam's voice actor.
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Offline Apollo

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
I still like basic FreeSpace gameplay a lot, and I've been playing it since first grade.

A little innovation is nice, though.
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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
As usual, this is getting needlessly antagonistic. You might be bored with retail, you might not; but a little heterogeny isn't going to hurt.
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Offline Qent

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
That didn't sound antagonistic to me. Maybe "bored" isn't the best term. Confined? Happy with retail but yearning for something that's FreeSpace but deeper.

 

Offline Apollo

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
As usual, this is getting needlessly antagonistic. You might be bored with retail, you might not; but a little heterogeny isn't going to hurt.

Was that directed at me? Because I don't see how partially agreeing with everyone is antagonistic.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
it was probably directed at me and my "speak for yourself" line.  i didn't mean for that to sound hostile.  i just meant to disagree with the point that the community at large is bored with "standard" FS2 gameplay.

in the interest of full disclosure, i haven't read most of the thread (because i also don't care for the.... charged emotions in the posts i read in the first couple pages), i just happened to see that one post and wanted to respond.
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Offline Apollo

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
it was probably directed at me and my "speak for yourself" line.  i didn't mean for that to sound hostile.  i just meant to disagree with the point that the community at large is bored with "standard" FS2 gameplay.

in the interest of full disclosure, i haven't read most of the thread (because i also don't care for the.... charged emotions in the posts i read in the first couple pages), i just happened to see that one post and wanted to respond.

I don't think you sounded terribly hostile. Perhaps somewhat defensive, but not insulting.

This thread has taken an interesting course. We've gone from arguing over Tenebra's storyline to arguing over whether or not BP is science fantasy to arguing over whether or not retail gameplay is boring.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
Intriguing thread.  I've stayed out of it while I worked on finally finishing Act 3, but now that I have...

Anyone who frequents GD will know I'm a scientific rationalist by training and work in the uber-rationality of legislation by occupation.  Looking at Tenebra from every angle I can come up with, I'm not seeing any space magic.  Certainly not along the lines of the nonsense regularly injected into the ME series by BioWare.

My overarching reaction to WiH, and Tenebra in particular, is immensely positive.  The mission design was spectacular, the plot coherent and meaningful (very little in terms of filler, although the Custos mission might qualify), and the experience in general was top-notch.  It took me a while to get into it, but Tenebra isn't a traditional dogfight simulation like FS2 retail, and I don't think that's a bad change.  We've all played as Alpha 1 enough to be able to do that in our sleep.  AoA was an expanded version of that with character-centric narrative design.  WiH P1 moved us a little further away from solo tactics into a command realm.  Tenebra completes that arc.  Tenebra seems to best be played almost like a tactical RTS, orchestrating the battle rather than fighting it.  While that may not be for everyone, I think it's a great deal more interesting than traditional FreeSpace missions.

One of the major missing components in typical FreeSpace missions is player identity.  BP stories are not driven by an anonymous hero but by real - and fallible - human characters.  In fact, the only real objection I have to this method is the introduction of some plot-consequential player agency.  My personal preference would have been for a canonical presentation of events, as if the campaign was history retold rather than history made (I just felt like it would have been a better fit with the background materials, but this is entirely a creative decision).

My criticisms of Tenebra are limited to the following:
- The mission difficulty was not something I was prepared for, having not played FS since the last BP release, and I felt they could be a little too unforgiving until they were played a half-dozen times.  This was not a complaint echoed by everyone, however.
- The briefings were painful, and - related! - the DreamScape could have been used to at least model beginning mission parameters but was instead used purely for the "talky bits."  I really enjoyed the "talky bits," and I know Batts already said time was a major factor, but I sincerely hope any future releases with complex behaviour have their briefing modelled in the DreamScape instead of just text.
- Some of the vocabulary and technical writing was - I thought - needlessly jargon-filled.  I do understand why its written that way, but I felt like you didn't need to take that writing step to actually bring that part of the immersion across.
- Technical issue:  Unconventional keybinds and their corresponding instructions mostly ended up as trial-and-error.  Only a few missions had my non-standard keybinds properly working with correct descriptions in briefing or mission.

Anyway, I think Tenebra can be a really rewarding gameplay and plot experience if people go into it NOT expecting a traditional FS experience, and that is perhaps where people are getting hung up.

Also - loved Universal Truth.  The universe is alive, and the Shivans are a nonrational immune system.  Oh, and the Bosch tie-in, the retail mysteries cleared up?  Fantastic.  I really do feel like this could be the continuation of the retail plot with a new storytelling mechanism.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 04:48:45 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
We recently discovered that due to an SCP bug, all weapon ROF and damage has been locked on Insane difficulty no matter what difficulty you select.

So that may be part of why people are finding it so hard.

 
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
We recently discovered that due to an SCP bug, all weapon ROF and damage has been locked on Insane difficulty no matter what difficulty you select.

So that may be part of why people are finding it so hard.

Hooray I don't just suck! :P

 

Offline Apollo

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
The reason some people (and formerly myself) think of it as space magic is because it takes a bunch of common fantasy conventions and alters them to fit soft sci-fi. Nothing is actually supernatural, but it can feel very mystical at times.

We recently discovered that due to an SCP bug, all weapon ROF and damage has been locked on Insane difficulty no matter what difficulty you select.

So that may be part of why people are finding it so hard.

Eos uses a slightly outdated version of Fury AI, so will this affect my mission balance? Or is it just limited to BP builds?
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Offline The E

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
We recently discovered that due to an SCP bug, all weapon ROF and damage has been locked on Insane difficulty no matter what difficulty you select.

So that may be part of why people are finding it so hard.

And I will be posting new builds with that fix in place tomorrow.

Eos uses a slightly outdated version of Fury AI, so will this affect my mission balance? Or is it just limited to BP builds?

This bug affects the 3.6.16 stable release, and all other builds prior to the newest nightly build.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
The reason some people (and formerly myself) think of it as space magic is because it takes a bunch of common fantasy conventions and alters them to fit soft sci-fi. Nothing is actually supernatural, but it can feel very mystical at times.

A thousand years ago the lay understanding of most natural phenomena was purely mystical.

Quote
Eos uses a slightly outdated version of Fury AI, so will this affect my mission balance? Or is it just limited to BP builds?

The AI table you use is irrelevant, it's all up to the executable you're running.

 
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
This bug affects the 3.6.16 stable release, and all other builds prior to the newest nightly build.

Whoa ... how long has it been like this? Are we talking about all the way since 3.6.12? Or even before?

 

Offline Apollo

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
Eos uses a slightly outdated version of Fury AI, so will this affect my mission balance? Or is it just limited to BP builds?

This bug affects the 3.6.16 stable release, and all other builds prior to the newest nightly build.

Now I understand why one of my missions has gotten harder despite nerfing a few enemies. Will you fix the official 3.6.16 builds, or just the BP ones?

The reason some people (and formerly myself) think of it as space magic is because it takes a bunch of common fantasy conventions and alters them to fit soft sci-fi. Nothing is actually supernatural, but it can feel very mystical at times.

A thousand years ago the lay understanding of most natural phenomena was purely mystical.

Yes, but a lot of stuff in BP still feels mystical and barely avoids the status of science fantasy. For example, the Vishnans and Shivans have enough power to be gods; you just choose to write them as incredibly advanced aliens.

EDIT: I could use that rationalization to call Lord of the Rings soft sci-fi even though it has a completely different writing style. It all depends on how you word things.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 05:15:35 pm by Apollo »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
That's a dumb argument. By the standards of a civilization from 1500 BC we have enough power to be gods. We just...choose...to write ourselves as...incredibly advanced humans?

It makes no sense.

  

Offline The E

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
Ive split out the discussions about Shivans, their intentions and whether or not they are sentient. You can find it here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83738.0
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns