Author Topic: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?  (Read 3287 times)

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Offline Hellzed

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First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
Hi,
I have some ideas for a mission, and I am trying to FRED it. The mission may get a bit bigger than it is now, and I need some advice and criticism about what I do, because I am learning and only took the advanced tutorial before. Could you please review this first bit ?
This is only less than 5 minutes long, and the FRED file is pretty small.

I work with SEXPs names and assets names in English, but the original text was in French (I did a quick and dirty translation in 5 min, it will get better).

I have some sort of a backstory about political unrest in Polaris before the rise of the NTF, and what happened the very day Bosch claimed authority on Neo-Terra. Something that could be called "Escape from Polaris" (4 pages of text, scripted events schemes, chatter...).

This is to be a single mission at first, but I have some ideas for 2 more ones, so if I have some time, it could end up being a 3 or 4 missions mini campaign.

Here is the file : http://ubuntuone.com/6Po4lLZ8St8q54QCGBF93w

The mission has no end at the moment, just end it after the transport docks.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 12:00:10 am by Hellzed »

 

Offline FelixJim

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
The first thing I shall do after my last exam today is come home and play this. Give me 10 hours.
In-Mission Techroom Script v0.4 - See information from the techroom in game
Simple Animation Script v0.2 - Make your own on-screen animations for FSO
Visible Waypoints Script - Makes waypoints visible in-game
Run From File Script - Get around the pesky 31 character limit for script-eval

 

Offline FelixJim

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
I lied; I made a pot of tea first. Still, here we go:

As this is just the start of the mission, there's not too much to say here. You're missing various things such as (de)briefings, music, background, title, objectives, loadout, mission description and so on and so forth obviously, but I'm going to ignore everything like that I assume you just haven't got around to yet. I won't talk about grammar or anything like that either.

I'd let the player have just a second or two to settle into the mission before sending that first message, as it feels a bit abrupt. Just stick a bit of a delay on it.

One thing I'd get into the habit of as soon as possible - work out what's going to happen if, for some reason, a critical ship gets disabled somehow (I managed this without becoming a traitor by equipping a Akehton, going for the AKH's engines and consequently broke the mission). Generally, I'd say that unless you want to prepare for the disabled scenario (not usually worth it unless you want it to be an important part of the mission) it's worth firing off a ship-subsys-guardian-threshold on the engine when the ship arrives just to be on the safe side.

Second point about AKH: it's hard to tell how intentional this, but although you've specified the cargo to be "Engineers", the player will never actually see this. Checking the "Scannable" box means the ship has listed under it "Not Scanned" and "Scanned" only. Not having "Scannable" checked means it will have "Cargo unknown" and "Cargo: Engineers" displayed. It's a bit unintuitive, but you don't need to have "Scannable" checked to make the ship scannable, merely specifying a cargo in the ship editor will let the player scan the ship, and either will work fine with is-cargo-known-delay. Again, you might know all this and have done this deliberately and the "Engineers" is just from a previous idea - but as I can't tell I thought I'd point it out.

There's quite a long pause between the AKH setting off to dock and the actual docking in which nothing happens. You might want to move some of the dialogue from earlier (its possible to get the checkpoint ages before the AKH arrives and you just have to sit tight whilst waiting)/write extra dialogue/have something else happen here to keep the player entertained.

It's a nice touch to add in annoyed comments from Command if you fail to head to the checkpoint; one minor thing is that the "you didn't follow the security process fires" perhaps a bit too close to the AKH arrival message. Also, the fact that the AHK is carrying engineers for the Iceni project feels like a very important piece of information to hide away in a message players only see when they're mucking about not doing what they're supposed to. Maybe this'll be mentioned in the briefing in the final version though?

Last thing - mission was a bit empty, in that I might expect a little more activity around an Arcadia, even if it's just a few cargo crates and a cruiser nearby resupplying.

All in all, bearing in mind this is a work in progress, I'm happy with the way it's looking. Your FREDing looks good and clean, especially for your first mission. Your directives are good, and you seem to have grasped the basics of FREDing nicely. And you're using chained events rather than send-message-list for dialogue, which is a much better habit to be in, as send-message-list does have its problems, so thumbs up there.

TL;DR: You're on the right lines - now let's see you FRED some combat!
In-Mission Techroom Script v0.4 - See information from the techroom in game
Simple Animation Script v0.2 - Make your own on-screen animations for FSO
Visible Waypoints Script - Makes waypoints visible in-game
Run From File Script - Get around the pesky 31 character limit for script-eval

 

Offline Hellzed

  • 28
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
Thank you !
I was wondering if I should use (or not) send-message-list, but since they used chained events in retail FS2 missions, I wanted to be on the safe side. It looks like I have my answer now.
At first I thought Volition developers always separated ship movements and other events from the dialogue-only events. It looks like I was wrong, sometimes they are mixed, but I still don't really understand the logic to make completely clean event chains. I'm not sure either when I should use a [chained event with a chain delay] or a [non-chained event triggered by a "is-event-true-delay"] or either a ["is-previous-event-true"].
Any rule of thumb for the coding style ?

For the cargo/scannable thing : I didn't know about. I'm going to fix it.

I knew about the disabled trigger ship thing (I sometimes break retail missions using this trick), just forgot to include it in my own piece of fredding.

I thought about splitting the first dialogue and sending the second half during AKH docking, but I felt it would have been a bit too obvious that the news report about Akheton buying Freedom Shipyard and the player escorting an Akheton ship right there were closely related. It is already obvious, I don't want to be insulting to a player's intellect ! :p
Instead, I will use the background shipyard activity to tell the player something wrong is happening. Like a dialogue between an other security patrol and a freighter refusing to move, and maybe another news report about things getting worse.
I try to find a better dialogue for the station going on strike and taking Zod engineers hostages.

About the setting : the Iceni will be docked in a Ganymede just next to the shipyard, and maybe in the briefing too.
Why did Bosch chose to do a coup on this precise day ?
- economic crisis in Polaris is at its worst, Terran violence against Vasudan workers is bursting.
- the government of Polaris is about to fall : they are trying to avoid a blood bath while maintaining the rule of law.
- Neo-Terran ideology is stronger than ever, shaping the whole public opinion.
- the great war has been over for a while. Most Soldiers in Polaris are from Polaris, and share people's feeling about Vasudans.
- an out of control strike in Freedom Shipyards could threaten vital assets for the Iceni project.

Bosch can't let that happen. He claims authority while the civilian government falls. Neo-Terran forces only choice is to form a new government under Bosch. They can do whatever they want (including anti vasudans policies) as long as they are no threat to Bosch ultimate goal. Bosch provides them with the support of 6th fleet major assets.

The whole thing in this mission will be about getting out of Polaris. Maybe you can get some Zods out of this mess too ? Maybe you want the NTF to trust you by killing (or ignoring) some zods ? Maybe sticking with Bosch's orders is safer ? Who do you chose to trust Pilot ? And what the hell is the Trinity doing here ?!


Next parts in the mission :
1) GTVA reinforcements, Zod marines dock with the station, trying to get their people back. Things get ugly, civilian deaths, GTVA marines firing at the crowd... Alpha loses 2 control (first choice : kill Alpha 2 and save Zods ? What to do with Alpha 3 ?)
2) Get to the node : full Zod escort mission ? or send them to hell and get out of here ? This includes AI sending you trebuchets...
3) The first part on the truth about Arthur Roemig.

Each choice you make can go into a global variable giving you NTF points or GTVA points. This could be of use if I do another mission linked with this one.

 

Offline Hellzed

  • 28
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
Up :
Which retail sound can I use to draw attention to new messages ?

Is there a user friendly translation tool ?
Right now I have to maintain 2 versions of the mission in FRED 2 and I lose time doing partial translations for testing purpose. Is there a simple tool to quickly edit only messages ?

Shall I change AKH class to a bigger type of transport ? Ma'at maybe ?

Some other stuff :
- Any question/idea about the setting ? Fact error about FreeSpace canon ? Dialogue rewriting ?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 04:42:39 pm by Hellzed »

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
Making a clean event tree is a lot like making clean code.

http://xkcd.com/844/
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Offline karajorma

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
Thank you !
I was wondering if I should use (or not) send-message-list, but since they used chained events in retail FS2 missions, I wanted to be on the safe side. It looks like I have my answer now.

There's nothing wrong with using send-message-list if you can guarantee the ships sending messages

1) Will be alive
2) Won't end up in a situation halfway through were the messages make no sense (Talking about something you just blew up for instance)

Send-message-list has some advantages. For instance, you can choose when to send a message much more accurately. Very useful if you're trying to send a message where someone cuts someone off mid-sentence in a voice acted campaign).

As always, use the best tool for the job at the time.

Quote
At first I thought Volition developers always separated ship movements and other events from the dialogue-only events. It looks like I was wrong, sometimes they are mixed, but I still don't really understand the logic to make completely clean event chains.

With all due respect to Volition, the community has raised the bar on how complicated a mission can be so much, that they're perhaps the wrong people to learn from. You might be better off cracking open something from a much more recent campaign where the FREDder is dealing with 200 events rather than just 40.

Quote
I'm not sure either when I should use a [chained event with a chain delay] or a [non-chained event triggered by a "is-event-true-delay"]

Either is fine. The difference between which to choose only becomes important if you're going to be doing repeating events.

Quote
or either a ["is-previous-event-true"].

You only use this one if you're dealing with events that happened in a previous mission of the same campaign.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:25:44 pm by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Hellzed

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
New Link. It is still the same mission beginning (about 6 min gameplay). Still no fighting yet. But i have updated this small bit A LOT. This compressed file contains a mod folder, and it has to be used with mediavps_3612.

http://ubuntuone.com/5n3PT9fy1r9ffoVflSxo1O

Also included : the new GTI Arcadia release. And the message bell from Blue Planet, because it helps a lot not missing new messages while keeping focus on flying the rest of the time.
And I still have no idea if I should change AKH for something bigger, maube a MA'at. Or a Satis.
And updated translation, maybe a little less terrible (the briefing test is still in french though, everything else is in english).
And if you compare loop1-1 with mediavps and this mission's skybox, it has to be really similar (both missions are in Polaris, I made mine a bit closer to the planets and the sun).
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 10:42:42 am by Hellzed »

 

Offline Hellzed

  • 28
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
New question :
I try to draw attention to some objects in mission by emphasizing them in mini cutscenes (a bit like the arrival of Labouchere in Blue Planet mission Delenda Est) but I would need to show message lines over cutscene bars.
How do I do that ? When I set cutscenes bars, messages are not shown.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
I never use cutscene bars at all!

 

Offline Hellzed

  • 28
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
Sorry ! I don't know why i thought you did (i was just checking, and didn't find anything related to cutscene bars in the mission file) !

Actually, what I did is :
- Alpha 2 opens up a bridge between a local news channel and the GTVA network
- news start to pop up in the chat, like command messages would

What I need is :
- a close up on a satellite when Alpha 2 connects to the news channel, and the camera back inside Alpha 1's cockpit when the first news message is over.

I tried the cutscene SEXPs, but the standard hud messages are not showing up.

Any idea how i could do it ?

EDIT : Found it in Artemis Station "hud-disable-except-messages".
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 01:09:24 am by Hellzed »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
Disable-hud-except-messages

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
you can also disable all irrelevant hud gauges one by one like so

Code: [Select]
$Formula:   ( when
      ( true )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Support"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Wingman status"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Auto speed"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Auto target"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Countermeasures"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Directives"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Objective notifier"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Comm menu"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Lag indicator"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Mini shield"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Target shield"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Escort list"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Mission time"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Target monitor"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Extra target data"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Radar"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Radar orb"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Radar BSG"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Threat indicator"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Lead indicator"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Lead sight"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Multiplayer messages"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Offscreen indicator"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Targeting brackets"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Orientation"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Hostile direction"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Target direction"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Missile indicator"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Kills"
         ( false )
      )
      ( hud-activate-gauge-type
         "Throttle"
         ( false )
      )
   )
+Name:DisableHUD
+Repeat Count: 1
+Interval: 1

why did I do this
i also think i missed a few

i guess its just to show that
there's the right way to do something

and the UTTERLY RETARDED way to do something (what i did)
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
Or you can substitute the messages with subtitles, they display on top of cutscene bars.

 

Offline Hellzed

  • 28
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
New questions :

1) I need a friendly Orion to destroy a smaller friendly cruiser with its beams, but as long as I don't change the target iff, it does not start firing... How can I do that ?

If I order the Orion to chase the smaller cruiser, the destroyer starts moving to do the job... I would prefer for it not to move, and only use its exposed beam turrets. Any ideas ?

2) And how do you fredders know how many seconds to count between messages ? I tried reading the lines myself to know exactly how much time it takes, but is there a better method ?

3) Any ideas to make Amazon drones a bit more dangerous ? (I don't want to make them really dangerous, it's about a space station sending Amazons to a cruiser because they a desperate and out of options, so I just want them a bit more interesting to shoot down.)

I thought about better AI (fury's AI), general.

I'm not sure exactly how to make a full suicide squad of Amazon drones rigged with explosives. I would need them to be dangerous for the player if he is too close when it explodes, and I want them to go kamikaze on a small cruiser.
The kamikaze part works ok, but I'm not sure for the full squad with explosives.


 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
For 2 I can't speak for others, but I think it's something that will become easier the more you do it. You'll just start to know roughly how much time you should leave for stuff.

Me personally I want to be able to read the text at a relaxed pace. The time I would have is reading the text at a relaxed pace plus a short pause, maybe an extra second. Reading the text as if someone is speaking it at a relaxed pace.

I'm really not much more than a beginner FREDDER, but I've used this text stuff before for other things, and it just kind of comes naturally to me now, I can make a quick guess now, don't need to read to myself at all, and when I go to testing usually have it bang on what it needs to be.

It also helps that the previous message or two stay on the screen while the next arrives. This gives you some good leeway, it would be much harder if the last one disappeared when the next one arrived.

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
IANAF (I am not a FREDer :D) but for 1) I believe you can use fire-beam and/or fire-beam-at-coordinates SEXPs.  I don't know if you need beam-free(-all) or not in order for these SEXPs to work.
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
IANAF (I am not a FREDer :D) but for 1) I believe you can use fire-beam and/or fire-beam-at-coordinates SEXPs.  I don't know if you need beam-free(-all) or not in order for these SEXPs to work.

I also see something in there about changing IFF colour. I tried to figure it out but couldn't, as I wanted to have a target show as red, but be green to the computer. I found an alternate solution to that little problem in the end.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
New questions :

1) I need a friendly Orion to destroy a smaller friendly cruiser with its beams, but as long as I don't change the target iff, it does not start firing... How can I do that ?

If I order the Orion to chase the smaller cruiser, the destroyer starts moving to do the job... I would prefer for it not to move, and only use its exposed beam turrets. Any ideas ?

2) And how do you fredders know how many seconds to count between messages ? I tried reading the lines myself to know exactly how much time it takes, but is there a better method ?

3) Any ideas to make Amazon drones a bit more dangerous ? (I don't want to make them really dangerous, it's about a space station sending Amazons to a cruiser because they a desperate and out of options, so I just want them a bit more interesting to shoot down.)

I thought about better AI (fury's AI), general.

I'm not sure exactly how to make a full suicide squad of Amazon drones rigged with explosives. I would need them to be dangerous for the player if he is too close when it explodes, and I want them to go kamikaze on a small cruiser.
The kamikaze part works ok, but I'm not sure for the full squad with explosives.



1 and 2:

fire-beam
then sabotage the cruiser's hull as necessary as friendly beam fire does reduced damage (!)
that or make a new IFF that is hostile but looks like friendly and set the cruiser to that IFF (requires tbl editing)

3
use kamikaze option you can set their explodyness
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 
Re: First atempt at FREDing something. Help ?
1) I need a friendly Orion to destroy a smaller friendly cruiser with its beams, but as long as I don't change the target iff, it does not start firing... How can I do that ?

If I order the Orion to chase the smaller cruiser, the destroyer starts moving to do the job... I would prefer for it not to move, and only use its exposed beam turrets. Any ideas ?
Like niffiwan said, the fire-beam SEXP was practically made for surprise beam sniping like this.

Quote
2) And how do you fredders know how many seconds to count between messages ? I tried reading the lines myself to know exactly how much time it takes, but is there a better method ?
I usually count some two seconds per message editor line, and then adjust as required during testing.

Quote
3) Any ideas to make Amazon drones a bit more dangerous ? (I don't want to make them really dangerous, it's about a space station sending Amazons to a cruiser because they a desperate and out of options, so I just want them a bit more interesting to shoot down.)

I thought about better AI (fury's AI), general.

I'm not sure exactly how to make a full suicide squad of Amazon drones rigged with explosives. I would need them to be dangerous for the player if he is too close when it explodes, and I want them to go kamikaze on a small cruiser.
The kamikaze part works ok, but I'm not sure for the full squad with explosives.
There's a button "Special exp(losion)" or something in the ship properties, you can customize the ship destruction explosion any way you want :) You can SEXP the drones to self-destruct when they're at a certain distance from the cruiser.