[Gray113]

Ok back on topic how do people think GTVA governance will affect Sol's populace?

Can the GTVA gain legitimacy in their eyes considering the background to the war? Will those who work with the GTVA be seen as traitors to Sol or will most people see which way the wind is blowing and actively work with the GTVA for the greater good? Can the GTVA use the spectre of the Shivans to convince the populace to aid in the reconstruction of the Terran forces or will Ubuntu pacifism win out?

[Klaustrophobia]

GTVA won't be legitimized unless/until the shivans kick down the door.  and at that point it won't matter.

[crazy_dave]

Ok back on topic how do people think GTVA governance will affect Sol's populace?

Can the GTVA gain legitimacy in their eyes considering the background to the war? Will those who work with the GTVA be seen as traitors to Sol or will most people see which way the wind is blowing and actively work with the GTVA for the greater good? Can the GTVA use the spectre of the Shivans to convince the populace to aid in the reconstruction of the Terran forces or will Ubuntu pacifism win out?

Considering that the population seemed pretty happy with their leaders, that they had a massive economic boom under Ubuntu, and that the GTA caused a lot hardship with their invasion, were the GTA to win, I couldn't really see them being welcomed with open arms by the populace. No doubt some would work with the GTA just to bring stability, but I think the GTA would face massive civilian resistance - both violent (especially with former UEF military) and non-violent nature (i.e. work stoppages, demonstrations, and the like). That's my take on it. The GTA would have a very hard time controlling the population post-invasion.

[NGTM-1R]

Ok back on topic how do people think GTVA governance will affect Sol's populace?

Not at all.

It is neither simple nor practical to replace the entire governing mechanisms of the Solar System, and if the GTVA is wise, they will not even try. Upper echelon cleanout, perhaps, but even that not so much. Reconstruction provides jobs. Stay off the ground, just exploit your orbital superiority and hence your stranglehold on travel and trade.

Nothing visible changes to most citizens. No visible targets to resist, either. The GTVA does not need massive restructuring of the government as much as it needs Sol's shipyards.

[TheDemon]

Which is interesting because in the other universe they were gung-ho about continuing the cull

Were they really?

There were at dozens of Sathanas juggernauts in system, possibly hundreds. We don't know anything about the Dante's capabilities, but it was on the battlefield. And yet...

The total forces that attacked the 14th in Universal Truth were several dozen bombers and two cruisers.

It stretches my disbelief that out of all the forces in the system, the Vishnans somehow managed to tie down everything but strike craft and two cruisers. Especially when Shivans have such strong subspace capability. Doubly especially because the Dante was right there. I can only conclude that the Shivans let the 14th go. They're playing the long con on the Vishnans.

From FS2 we can hypothesize that losses of Sathanas class are trivial to the Shivans, something that was confirmed in Tenebra. Yet in Fallen Angel the Sathanas shock jumps the Sacred Keeper, rather than any of the ships of the GTVA fleet. If exterminating the Humans was so important, why make that particular attack? Same for in Universal Truth, if juggernauts are disposable, why use them all fighting the Vishnans if the true goal is to cull the humans?

There's more to it too. In the version of the conversation the Vishnans showed to the 14th, they implied that the Vasudans were extinct and the Shivans wished to make Humanity extinct too. But that's an outright lie, because the Vishnans became aware of everything Bei knew when he joined them, including the continued existence of the Vasudans in the parallel universe. Now, being charitable, it might just be that these particular Vishnans and Shivans are only concerned about their own universe, but by allowing the Sanctuary to escape to the parallel universe the Vishnans essentially cause the same thing - no more humans in their universe.

And we know from later information (tech room and the second Universal Truth) that it's at least hypothesized the Vishnans and Shivans are pan-universal.

[TheDemon]

Sorry for continuing the derail.


Anyway, here's what I'm curious about a GTVA victory.

The GTVA is built around fighting the Shivans. The strategy we know about is probably a duplicate of their Capella strategy: Seal off the nodes where Shivans appear. What I'm curious is what else the GTVA have up their sleeve. After all, fighting the Shivans is the reason the GTVA exists. So what new tricks are in the GTVA arsenal for fighting the Shivans now?

(relevant to a GTVA victory because in Tenebra Ken says a GTVA victory results in extinction. who knows if that's the truth, but that makes it at least relevant)

[MatthTheGeek]

The GTVA has no certitude that sealing off nodes will be enough to contain the next Shivan incursion. It would be foolish to assume it will always work because it worked at Capella. They have many other contingencies in place. What these contingencies may be is up for speculation, but can be partially guessed from materials already available.

[gloowa]

Yet in Fallen Angel the Sathanas shock jumps the Sacred Keeper,

The Sacred Keeper says VERY important thing just prior to that in my opinion: "The Great Darkness is coming! She... is coming".
Now. I find Vishnans calling Shivans the Great Darkness very strange. Everything else seems to suggest that GD is something else, something separate from both Shivans and Vishnans, yet being danger to them. Could this be that GD was in fact a weapon (cognition virus?) unleashed by Brahmans to destroy Shivans? And later after Brahmans learned purpose of Shivan existence they created the Terminal Protocol to avert the damage they caused? If that were true, or close to it, the Sathanas shockjumping Sacred Keeper could have been NOT under Shivan control...

Not at all.

It is neither simple nor practical to replace the entire governing mechanisms of the Solar System, and if the GTVA is wise, they will not even try. Upper echelon cleanout, perhaps, but even that not so much. Reconstruction provides jobs. Stay off the ground, just exploit your orbital superiority and hence your stranglehold on travel and trade.

Nothing visible changes to most citizens. No visible targets to resist, either. The GTVA does not need massive restructuring of the government as much as it needs Sol's shipyards.

That's the most realistic and sad part. Ruthless, smart occupants will always prevail

[Gray113]

Taken from Balance of power:
It would bring Sol into the GTVA and secure its tremendous industrial base for the preservation and re-establishment of the colonies.
It would shatter Sol’s obsolete militarises while largely preserving its manpower and industries to use in defense against the Shivans.

Not at all.

It is neither simple nor practical to replace the entire governing mechanisms of the Solar System, and if the GTVA is wise, they will not even try. Upper echelon cleanout, perhaps, but even that not so much. Reconstruction provides jobs. Stay off the ground, just exploit your orbital superiority and hence your stranglehold on travel and trade.

Nothing visible changes to most citizens. No visible targets to resist, either. The GTVA does not need massive restructuring of the government as much as it needs Sol's shipyards.

Can the GTVA reboot the Economy of Sol without having boots on the ground? It seams as though one of the primary reasons to recover Earth was to utilise the massive population with it's inherent industrial output and source of manpower. If it wants to use this resource then they have to give the Sol population a reason to fight for them rather against them.

Remaining in orbit around Earth with all guns pointed downwards will not gain the GTVA loyal soldiers or a workforce to built ships - if they are going to get this then they will have to make it worth the populace's while.

[The E]

Sure they can. Opening up economic connections to the rest of the GTVA will generate enormous levels of trade and demand for wares. Even if 99% of Sols industrial exports is civilian in nature, that will free up enormous ressources on the colonial side of things.

[CT27]

After World War II, the U.S. let Emperor Hirohito stay on the throne.  So is it possible the GTVA may let the Elders stay somehow?

[gloowa]

After World War II, the U.S. let Emperor Hirohito stay on the throne.  So is it possible the GTVA may let the Elders stay somehow?

That would defeat entire purpose of invading Sol. GTA wants to get rid of all Vishnan influence. There is no way they leave Elders at power.

[crizza]

After World War II, the U.S. let Emperor Hirohito stay on the throne.  So is it possible the GTVA may let the Elders stay somehow?

That would defeat entire purpose of invading Sol. GTA wants to get rid of all Vishnan influence. There is no way they leave Elders at power.

If some of the elders could be swayed to the GTVA, they could become some sort of governors, that would help prevent unrest.

[gloowa]

If some of the elders could be swayed to the GTVA, they could become some sort of governors, that would help prevent unrest.

Nope. GTA want's Elders dead, preferably after vivisection.

Code: [Select]

  Elders are in contact with Vishnans
+ GTA wants to "purge" Sol of all Vishnan influence
= GTA wants to "purge" Elders

[crazy_dave]

Which is interesting because in the other universe they were gung-ho about continuing the cull

Were they really?

There were at dozens of Sathanas juggernauts in system, possibly hundreds. We don't know anything about the Dante's capabilities, but it was on the battlefield. And yet...

The total forces that attacked the 14th in Universal Truth were several dozen bombers and two cruisers.

It stretches my disbelief that out of all the forces in the system, the Vishnans somehow managed to tie down everything but strike craft and two cruisers. Especially when Shivans have such strong subspace capability. Doubly especially because the Dante was right there. I can only conclude that the Shivans let the 14th go. They're playing the long con on the Vishnans.

From FS2 we can hypothesize that losses of Sathanas class are trivial to the Shivans, something that was confirmed in Tenebra. Yet in Fallen Angel the Sathanas shock jumps the Sacred Keeper, rather than any of the ships of the GTVA fleet. If exterminating the Humans was so important, why make that particular attack? Same for in Universal Truth, if juggernauts are disposable, why use them all fighting the Vishnans if the true goal is to cull the humans?

There's more to it too. In the version of the conversation the Vishnans showed to the 14th, they implied that the Vasudans were extinct and the Shivans wished to make Humanity extinct too. But that's an outright lie, because the Vishnans became aware of everything Bei knew when he joined them, including the continued existence of the Vasudans in the parallel universe. Now, being charitable, it might just be that these particular Vishnans and Shivans are only concerned about their own universe, but by allowing the Sanctuary to escape to the parallel universe the Vishnans essentially cause the same thing - no more humans in their universe.

And we know from later information (tech room and the second Universal Truth) that it's at least hypothesized the Vishnans and Shivans are pan-universal.

Those forces can still do a pretty nasty job on the Orestes if you don't stop them. I mean they do attack your battlegroup and I think it is implied that the extinct species is the Vasudans in the other universe. The humans in that universe get to escape the last of the cull. True that means they're absent now, but even if the Shivans agreed to stop the cull they would've had to restart their civilization from an aging destroyer and burned out worlds. Letting them escape is letting them live - especially since the Shivans didn't agree. Maybe gung-ho was an exaggeration, but even in the Shivan version of the conversation they believe the cull should continue and do not understand why the Vishnans want it to stop.

The Vishnans certainly seem to be pan-universal. I would guess the Shivans are too.

Sure they can. Opening up economic connections to the rest of the GTVA will generate enormous levels of trade and demand for wares. Even if 99% of Sols industrial exports is civilian in nature, that will free up enormous ressources on the colonial side of things.

That is only though if the civilian population is wiling to produce for the GTA. If they are recalcitrant, NGTM-1R and your supposition falls apart. Remember the Ubuntus believe their form of government and their long range planning has made them enlightened and brought them paradise. The people and the local governments may not be so willing to serve GTA masters regardless of how light the presence of boots on the ground are. I'm not saying it can't happen that way, but it is also very likely that the GTA would find a recalcitrant, uncontrollable population that refuses to cooperate.

[The E]

The thing you are forgetting is that the GTVA's stance on being ready to fight Shivans at the drop of a hat is not entirely unreasonable. Sure, they have "lost something out there", as Laporte put it, but that does not mean that their fears and wants are unjustified.

The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people. The UEF knows this; as such, there won't be all that many heavy objections.

[General Battuta]

Although we can't be sure until/unless we get there!

[gloowa]

The thing you are forgetting is that the GTVA's stance on being ready to fight Shivans at the drop of a hat is not entirely unreasonable. Sure, they have "lost something out there", as Laporte put it, but that does not mean that their fears and wants are unjustified.

The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people. The UEF knows this; as such, there won't be all that many heavy objections.

Right. I'm sure UEF citizens won't object at all to have government made of people who ordered NUCLEAR BOMBING of (their own) civilian cities few months back.
There is a difference between recognizing need to change, and submitting to a bully that tells you "Change. Nao!", AFTER he jumped at you in out of nowhere and beat you senseless without telling you WTF is going on.

[General Battuta]

The thing you are forgetting is that the GTVA's stance on being ready to fight Shivans at the drop of a hat is not entirely unreasonable. Sure, they have "lost something out there", as Laporte put it, but that does not mean that their fears and wants are unjustified.

The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people. The UEF knows this; as such, there won't be all that many heavy objections.

Right. I'm sure UEF citizens won't object at all to have government made of people who ordered NUCLEAR BOMBING of (their own) civilian cities few months back.
There is a difference between recognizing need to change, and submitting to a bully that tells you "Change. Nao!".

Well, we do have a historical example of a nation surrendering to and becoming a key ally of a country that ordered the nuclear bombing of its civilian cities...

[gloowa]

Well, we do have a historical example of a nation surrendering to and becoming a key ally of a country that ordered the nuclear bombing of its civilian cities...

Different story. The bomber was not the agressor.

[edit]
damn, i need to stop rushing my posts out of the door and them finishing them using edits (sorry The E). Guess my company "business-plan" (of you can call that... abomination... a business-plan) is getting trough to me.
Mental State:
Completaly Fine