[MatthTheGeek]

Of course you had a problem finding the installer, because it is broken and hence we're not pointing people to it anymore. You shouldn't have been looking for it in the first place.

For you. Are you seriously trying to tell me that new users aren't getting lost?

What I'm saying is that you're making a lot of assumptions on what is and isn't confusing newbies that aren't necessarily accurate. Unfortunately, none of us here are newbies anymore so we have little to base ourselves on.

[wistler]

Of course you had a problem finding the installer, because it is broken and hence we're not pointing people to it anymore. You shouldn't have been looking for it in the first place.

... And yet being a newbie I was. Go figure. And what's the alternative to a broken installer that's clearly being offered to new members?

[MatthTheGeek]

This, stickied on top of the first board.

In my opinion, what we should do is, go ahead with the "newbie forum" or whatever we want to call it, and one of the first thread there being "what do you think about the current forum layout and what has confused you the most when you joined". It is obvious no newbies are coming to look at this thread and we need their reactions, not those of veteran members who have all figured out.

[karajorma]

This, stickied on top of the first board.

Except it's not the first post (there are 5 other posts above it), nor on the first board. Nor does it help someone who came here cause he'd heard of a BSG or B5 game hosted here.

On top of that there is a thread above it called "Official new people thread!". Call me strange but that might be where I'd go first. Especially if I don't know what the name of the upgrade to Freespace is called. Especially if like wistler, I've heard that there is an automatic installer.

In my opinion, what we should do is, go ahead with the "newbie forum" or whatever we want to call it, and one of the first thread there being "what do you think about the current forum layout and what has confused you the most when you joined". It is obvious no newbies are coming to look at this thread and we need their reactions, not those of veteran members who have all figured out.

I can see that possibly being helpful. That said you can get a lot of that kind of information just from seeing where people start asking for help. And I've seen tons of people simply asking how to install FS2_Open.

[Black Wolf]

Perhaps instead of a newbie forum, we link to that topic (or something similar - possibly an open one where people can ask for help on specific steps if they need it) from the HLP main page and from a prominent spot on the forums (maybe directly above the highlights)?

[karajorma]

I don't think it's just that topic they need though.

Probably the most asked question I see from newbies is "Which mod should I play first?"

[Fury]

How about actually asking people who are not directly associated with these forums how they see the current board layout and what would make more sense in their eyes? I'm sure some of you people know folks who you can ask. Otherwise this isn't getting anywhere.

[CommanderDJ]

I don't think it's just that topic they need though.

Probably the most asked question I see from newbies is "Which mod should I play first?"

This is an excellent guide to answering that question by Battuta. Sadly, it's as yet unfinished, but already contains tons of good information. Maybe we could use this as a starting point of some sort?

[wistler]

There's loads of helpful information you could have for new people. A link to the best place to find/instal BSG, B5, BP. I link to Battuta's campaign thread. How to properly set up a new mod in the FS file. A link to FRED Academy and where get help with all the different problems you could have, a little explanation on what and how  launchers, media VP and so forth work work.
That sort of thing can go along way to making the forums less daunting.

[Goober5000]

The problem is that the layout you have is based on us still being a Freespace community. We're not. We haven't been for quite some time.

We have lots of users who barely play FS2 because they're here for Diaspora or TBP (or even just to chat). This is just going to increase as time goes on and we start getting people here for Fringespace, FotG or WoD's upcoming standalone. And if you're not here for Freespace, then the mediaVPs are a community project which is largely pointless for you.

I'd like to see your criteria for how you determine we are "not a Freespace community".  Because we are.  We still talk about FreeSpace, we still mod for FreeSpace, we still have hosted projects for FreeSpace.  And the majority of our hosted projects are FreeSpace related.  Therefore FreeSpace should be the focus.

I'd suggest we move all the FSUP, FSCRP, Missions and Campaigns AND all the released FS2 mods into the Freespace section. That way if you don't care about FS you can skip the lot. I don't see the point in having a Freespace section and then a more Freespace section.

This doesn't make sense.  First of all, if someone wanted to skip over sections containing FreeSpace he can skip over (or collapse) two or more categories just as easily as one.  Second of all, having too many unrelated boards in the same section makes it harder for a person who is interested in FreeSpace to find what he's looking for.

Put yourself in the mindset of someone new to HLP and try to figure out how long it would take you to find all the stuff you need.

When I was new to HLP, I lurked for three months before making my first post.  During that time, I found what I needed by searching for it.  Many other newbies have followed the same process.

Now that said, I'm not against the idea of a newbie forum (see my thread in Site Feedback).  It's a different question than the forum layout though.

[jr2]

Wrong argument here. I was new once and it took me 10 min tops to have everything set up correctly, and that was 2 and a half years ago.

Matth, what is your username?  Just saying. 

[karajorma]

I'd like to see your criteria for how you determine we are "not a Freespace community".  Because we are.  We still talk about FreeSpace

We have quite a few users who have never played Freespace. That alone should tell you we aren't a Freespace community any more. What we are is an FS2_Open community. And the boards should reflect that.

we still mod for FreeSpace

That fact that a lot of people are modding for TBP or WCS is one of the main reasons I moved the modding and FREDding boards to the same section as coding. A lot of people aren't touching Freespace and shouldn't be excluded from the process. Hell, just look at the Celebration of Freespace thread and you'll see that a lot of people are celebrating other universes.

And the majority of our hosted projects are FreeSpace related.  Therefore FreeSpace should be the focus.

I'm not saying Freespace isn't important. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be the only focus. And right now it is. I think there's something wrong when we keep having to point out that the Freespace Wiki isn't just about Freespace. Or that you can only join a certain community project if you're willing to pay $10.

This doesn't make sense.  First of all, if someone wanted to skip over sections containing FreeSpace he can skip over (or collapse) two or more categories just as easily as one.  Second of all, having too many unrelated boards in the same section makes it harder for a person who is interested in FreeSpace to find what he's looking for.

How are those boards unrelated though? Almost all of them are mods for Freespace (including FSUP). I think it says something about how disorganised the layout you want is, when the Blue Planet and Blue Planet Multiplayer boards would still be in completely different sections. And while I think the SCP board should stay in the coding section, I still think it's silly to have all the Freespace mods in one section, and then have the media VPs that are quite often a requirement in a completely different one. FSUP is basically a Freespace mod. Why is it separate from the other mods?
 I'm not completely against having a Freespace and then a Freespace mods section. It's just that I can't wrap my head round the logic of having FSUP, an integral part of the Freespace Experience (TM ) in a third section just because it happens to be a community project. Hell, have a Freespace and then Freespace mods section and stick FSUP in the Freespace section directly below Gen FS if need be.

When I was new to HLP, I lurked for three months before making my first post.  During that time, I found what I needed by searching for it.  Many other newbies have followed the same process.

I know, I did much the same thing. But many newbies don't. Just cause that worked for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else.

[MatthTheGeek]

I think it says something about how disorganised the layout you want is, when the Blue Planet and Blue Planet Multiplayer boards would still be in completely different sections.

Wrong example. BP Multi is dead, it probably should be in the Archived Boards by now.

[Goober5000]

We have quite a few users who have never played Freespace. That alone should tell you we aren't a Freespace community any more. What we are is an FS2_Open community. And the boards should reflect that.

There's a difference between "aren't at all" and "aren't exclusively".  FreeSpace is a large part (in fact, the majority) of our community, even though we add other stuff too.  By your selection of points you seem to be arguing that we "aren't exclusively" FreeSpace, but the language you're using has more of the "aren't at all" flavor.

we still mod for FreeSpace

That fact that a lot of people are modding for TBP or WCS is one of the main reasons I moved the modding and FREDding boards to the same section as coding. A lot of people aren't touching Freespace and shouldn't be excluded from the process. Hell, just look at the Celebration of Freespace thread and you'll see that a lot of people are celebrating other universes.

Fine, and you should notice that I said that category is "actually a pretty reasonable section".

And the majority of our hosted projects are FreeSpace related.  Therefore FreeSpace should be the focus.

I'm not saying Freespace isn't important. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be the only focus. And right now it is. I think there's something wrong when we keep having to point out that the Freespace Wiki isn't just about Freespace. Or that you can only join a certain community project if you're willing to pay $10.

Of course it's not the only "focus", if by focus you mean an area of interest.  I used the word "focus" as in a "primary focus" sense.  If we have several areas of interest, the principal, i.e. first, i.e. most important area is FreeSpace.  That's why it's on top.  After that comes the other universes, and then finally are the off-topic and support areas.

How are those boards unrelated though? Almost all of them are mods for Freespace (including FSUP). I think it says something about how disorganised the layout you want is, when the Blue Planet and Blue Planet Multiplayer boards would still be in completely different sections. And while I think the SCP board should stay in the coding section, I still think it's silly to have all the Freespace mods in one section, and then have the media VPs that are quite often a requirement in a completely different one. FSUP is basically a Freespace mod. Why is it separate from the other mods?

You're not making a distinction between "related in any way" and "related in terms of organization".  Obviously all of the FreeSpace boards are related in that they deal with FreeSpace.  But there are differences between story, modding, enhancement, and expansion.  That's why it's useful to add additional category breakdowns.  This is mainly needed because of the number of boards we have; if we go back to early HLP where all we had were "General Discussion", "General FreeSpace", "FreeSpace Modding", and hosted projects, then we could get away with fewer categories.

Anyway, I'm going to tweak the forum layout based on this discussion.  We'll see how this one works for a short while, and then we can throw sticks at it if we need to.

[mjn.mixael]

It's like musical board layout around here... Old layout, Kara's layout.. now Goober's layout.. likely with another layout change on the way. *le sigh* Couldn't we have talked it out and agreed on something before moving everything around multiple times?

[Luis Dias]

It's like musical board layout around here... Old layout, Kara's layout.. now Goober's layout.. likely with another layout change on the way. *le sigh* Couldn't we have talked it out and agreed on something before moving everything around multiple times?

Is it my turn now?

[Mongoose]

Honestly I'm not even too concerned over what's placed where.  I just scroll down the index and open whatever comes up red in new tabs.

[karajorma]

It's like musical board layout around here... Old layout, Kara's layout.. now Goober's layout.. likely with another layout change on the way. *le sigh* Couldn't we have talked it out and agreed on something before moving everything around multiple times?

I did check before I moved stuff around. I didn't see any posts against it. That said, I could have checked more extensively.

[Luis Dias]

Honestly I'm not even too concerned over what's placed where.  I just scroll down the index and open whatever comes up red in new tabs.

Have you heard this little gem called "Show Unread posts since your last visit" and "Show new replies to your posts"?

[Mongoose]

Yes, but I'd rather have more control over what I'm reading.  If I don't really feel like perusing a certain folder one day, I can just skip past it.