Poll

Regardless of whether or not you agree, what do you think of my essay?

Fantastic essay!
1 (4%)
Good essay!
1 (4%)
Alright essay.
3 (12%)
Bad essay.
1 (4%)
Terrible essay!
1 (4%)
Too long; didn't read.
3 (12%)
I strongly disagree with you and can't vote objectively.
1 (4%)
Snuffleupagus
14 (56%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?  (Read 30283 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
I concede that it's a different issue for more frontiery countries like the US or Canada or Oz, where guns (subtype: Hunting rifles) still have legitimate uses. But the bottom line for me is that the vast majority of people cannot be trusted with the kind of power guns represent. That isn't meant to be a slur against anyone's character, it's just the simple matter that handling a gun responsibly and safely at all times requires discipline and training, and that is something that takes time to acquire. There are far too many incidents of kids playing with guns and killing themselves or others for me to ever be comfortable with the idea of keeping firearms inside a home.

Firearms are a tool, and I generally contend that as long as a deadly tool has strict regulation, training, safety, and possession requirements, the risk is manageable.  Where firearms use falls apart is when you mix arrogance, lack of training, ideology, availability, and/or criminality together.

I think some countries have gotten their firearms policies generally right (since the abolition of the non-restricted registry, I place Canada in that category).  Other countries have gotten it wrong for a long time (the United States being example number 1).
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Offline Nuke

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
more guns, bigger guns, better guns and the right to bear nukes to all!
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline An4ximandros

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?

Like this?

 

Offline deathfun

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
Technically speaking, if you use the whole "Right to bear arms" claus...

Nukes are arms. See, it doesn't specifically say "Firearms" and "arms" is more short form for "armament"
And what are High Explosives but armament? Swords? Americans have the right to bear swords too!

So each American has a right to bear nukes in the basement if they so wanted to!

Quote
-Handguns can be carried in public if you have a permit to do so, but permits are rather difficult to obtain.

An Authorization To Transport (ATT) is actually a fairly easy to obtain permit which allows DIRECT transportation to and fro your house and a firing range. Your restricted and/or prohibited firearm must be trigger locked and in a locked container (double seal) in order for it to be transported *legally*

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/restr-eng.htm

"No"

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
I saw the title of this and immediately thought that there is no way this thread goes anywhere but downhill.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
I saw the title of this and immediately thought that there is no way this thread goes anywhere but downhill.

Whether it does or it doesn't, please don't encourage it with a post such as this.

 
Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
Technically speaking, if you use the whole "Right to bear arms" claus...

Nukes are arms. See, it doesn't specifically say "Firearms" and "arms" is more short form for "armament"
And what are High Explosives but armament? Swords? Americans have the right to bear swords too!

So each American has a right to bear nukes in the basement if they so wanted to!
While I've never heard of people owning nukes, I do know about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IeEa8tqUkE

Another point to this discussion- how many firearms used for crime are legally owned, by people who have permits?
How many people on a shooting spree respect gun free zones?
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Offline Mika

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
As MP-Ryan mentioned, it is terribly easy to read statistics the way you want so that they support your opinions.

From Finland (Actually, Fennoscandia in general), I can tell that we have very little firearms related deaths or accidents, but our homicide rates are comparatively high. This is because firearms are generally NOT used in the homicides - culturally you are much more likely to die because of a drunken fight where possibly knives or rocks are used. But no firearms, that's a sort of no-no here. There are very few actual murders, but lots of killings; the difference between these two is that murder is pre-planned, while killing is a more random event. Even an officer has lot to answer for if he draws and fires a weapon. Every shot by the officers is investigated meticulously, and god forbid if the result is that it was unnecessary to do that (I don't recall seeing that).

Actually, even poaching has very strict punishments, meaning that if you are caught hunting an animal out-of-season, you'll lose everything that you used to commit this crime to the government. And I mean literally, everything, including the gun, vehicle, snow mobile, etc. etc. They'll sell your stuff for a profit then, and you'll never see a dime of that money. And on top of that, they'll issue you a fine. A very hefty fine, I'd say.

Sometimes I wish they'd take similar position for drinking under influence - do that and you'll get a fine and lose your car!
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline deathfun

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
Technically speaking, if you use the whole "Right to bear arms" claus...

Nukes are arms. See, it doesn't specifically say "Firearms" and "arms" is more short form for "armament"
And what are High Explosives but armament? Swords? Americans have the right to bear swords too!

So each American has a right to bear nukes in the basement if they so wanted to!
While I've never heard of people owning nukes, I do know about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IeEa8tqUkE


That guy could easily have used some simple mathematics to hit that damned trailer

"No"

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?

Another point to this discussion- how many firearms used for crime are legally owned, by people who have permits?


That depends: Are you counting suicide?

 
Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
that is... not a crime
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
that is... not a crime

But does frequently get you locked up.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
Sure it is, it's just one that can never be prosecuted for a successful incidence on the part of the victim.

To wit, people are not allowed to commit suicide, the same way people are not allowed to steal.  It happens anyway.

 

Offline Mebber

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
It's quite a difference if somethings illegal/a crime or if it's just a taboo/socially forbidden...

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
While that's true, suicide is not "socially forbidden" as much as it is illegal, because you can and will get locked up (granted for your own safety) for it.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
It's quite a difference if somethings illegal/a crime or if it's just a taboo/socially forbidden...

Suicide is defined as a criminal offense in many/most Common Law-derived jurisdictions.  This is slowly changing.
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
While suicide itself, in the United States, is not treated as an illegal act (I believe some states still have law on the books against attempts), it will still get a person who fails locked up in a great many circumstances and in the case where a person had help, will get anyone who aided said person charged with manslaughter.  I'd argue that while there's nothing on the books, it's still very much considered a crime in The United States.

As others have said, it is still illegal in other countries.

And my main point was that suicide gets thrown in with a lot of those statistics because it beefs up the numbers.

 

Offline Mebber

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
Guess it's kinda nitpicking, but i'm really surprised about this. Around here suicide itself isn't illegal. You'll be locked up if you attempt to (and survive, of course), but on another legal basis - suicide is not seen as a crime, but as a symptome of mental illness. Basically, you loose your right of self-determination because you're not considered sane anymore, and that's why you're locked up - you aren't considered to be able to make rational decisions anymore, and might pose a threat to yourself or others.

Didn't know suicide is considered as an actual crime in some other nations...

Quote
And my main point was that suicide gets thrown in with a lot of those statistics because it beefs up the numbers.

With the gun-policy debate in mind, it might be interesting to see how much the numbers of successful/attempted suicides differ between nations with strict weapon regulations and nations with more liberal ones.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 08:37:44 pm by Mebber »

 

Offline deathfun

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
They want to off themselves let them
So long as they're doing it somewhere that doesn't involve other people

Like bridges. How many people caused so many traffic problems because they were having second thoughts about jumping a few hundred feet off a bridge...


Sidenote: If I recall, the majority of firearm related deaths in Canada are attributed to suicide
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Offline Nakura

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Re: I wrote an essay on gun control, thoughts?
This is generally where I stop in gun related topics

http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3295&context=wmlr
http://www.english.illinois.edu/-people-/faculty/debaron/essays/guns.pdf

Every legal reference in history to the right to keep and bear arms has referred to it as an individual right. The first recorded use of the 'right to keep and bear arms' comes from the English Bill of Rights of 1689, which referred explicitly to an individual right. Fourty-four of the fifty states protect the right to keep in their state constitutions and this right refers to an individual right in all fourty-four of them. The right to keep and bear arms has always referred to an individual right in the constitutions of other nations as well. Islamic law also calls for governments to respect for the individual right of the people to bear arms, though this right is not generally respected by Muslim countries in practice. The ancient religion of Zoroastrianism also called for the people to take up arms against unjust governments. The Second Amendment does not create any new rights, it only protects a pre-existing natural right that all sapient beings have. This has been proven time and time again by the Founding Fathers, the United States Supreme Court, John Locke and countless classical liberal philosophers.

Now lets look at United States case law and legal precedent for the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms in general. As previously mentioned, the first recorded legal usage of the right to keep and bear arms comes from the English Bill of Rights of 1689. Prior to the formation of the United States, the Thirteen Colonies also had a long-standing history of having a right to bear arms, which included the right to self-defense. Prior to the United States Constitution being formed, states that had declared their independence from Great Britain had protected the right to bear arms in their state constitutions and it included the right to self-defense. For instance, the 1776 Constitution of Pennsylvania states that "the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state." When the United States Constitution was being drafted and ratified, the Founding Fathers stated explicitly that the right to bear arms was a right of the people, not a "right of the militia" as some gun control advocates claim. In fact, many of the Founding Fathers wanted to require every free citizen to own a gun, viewing it as a civic duty. I will provide a list of these quotes from the Founding Fathers towards the end of this post.

Interpretation of the Second Amendment has always been that of recognizing it as an individual right. In fact, it was most commonly interpreted as a right that cannot under any circumstances be restricted or limited. Even foreigners held this view, including William Blackstone, who wrote about it in his Commentaries on the Laws of England. The Second Amendment uses the term "shall not be infringed," which not only states that the right to keep and bear arms is a pre-existing natural right, but also that it shall not be infringed upon. In fact, the only real criticism levied against the Second Amendment, was by those who thought it didn't provide enough protection to the right to bear arms. St. George Tucker and William Rawle, two lawyers and abolitionists (and in the case of Tucker, a Virginia Supreme Court justice) were among those who criticized the Second Amendment for not protecting the rights of gun owners enough. Tucker and Rawle argued that the Second Amendment needed to have provisions in order to help the poor be able to exercise their right to bear arms; they viewed this as difficult under the current laws, seeing as how many poor people couldn't afford firearms. Joseph Story, an early federal Supreme Court justice wrote in his work, Commentaries on the Constitution, that: "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." Story also wrote that the right to bear arms is a natural right. The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution states that all restrictions placed on the federal government also apply to state and local governments. One of the main reasons this amendment was added to the Constitution was because former slave states would often times refuse to allow freed slaves to bear arms, which violated their rights as protected under the Second Amendment.

It wasn't until the late 20th and early 19th century that racist Democrats tried to re-interpret the Second Amendment to mean a collective right to form state militias, in order to prevent blacks from owning guns. Dred Scott v. Sandford ruled that the Second Amendment is an individual right, however it also ruled that the Second Amendment did not apply to slaves. United States v. Cruikshank, Presser v. Illinois and Miller v. Texas ruled that the Second Amendment is an individual right, however, it also ruled that the First and Second Amendments only limit the federal government. United States v. Miller ruled that that: "These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense," which is to say that the people consist of the militia. United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez ruled that the Second Amendment (and the Bill of Rights in general) was an individual right that also applied to non-citizen aliens. United States v. Lopez ruled that the so-called "Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990" violated the Second Amendment and was unconstitutional. United States v. Emerson, District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago reaffirmed that the Second Amendment refers to an individual right that applies to state and local governments, as well as the federal government. Moore v. Madigan ruled that the ban on concealed carry in Illinois violated the Second Amendment and was thus unconstitutional, requiring Illinois to adopt concealed carry.

Lets also take a look at what the Founding Fathers had to say about the Second Amendment and right to bear arms:
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." -Thomas Jefferson

"We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;" -Thomas Jefferson

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -Thomas Jefferson

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

"To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character." -Alexander Hamilton

"[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -James Madison

"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws." -John Adams

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive. " -Noah Webster

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." -Tenche Coxe

"[The new government] shall be too firmly fixed in the saddle to be overthrown by anything but a general insurrection." -William Symmes

"[A standing army] if raised, whether they could subdue a nation of freemen, who know how to prize liberty, and who have arms in their hands?" -Theodore Sedwick

"[W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it." -Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Patrick Henry

"O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone...Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation...inflicted by those who had no power at all?" -Patrick Henry

"[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor..." -George Mason

"[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." -Zacharia Johnson

"That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." -Virginia delegation to the constitutional convention

"The whole of that Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals...t establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of." -Albert Gallatin

"[C]onceived it to be the privilege of every citizen, and one of his most essential rights, to bear arms, and to resist every attack upon his liberty or property, by whomsoever made. The particular states, like private citizens, have a right to be armed, and to defend, by force of arms, their rights, when invaded." -Roger Sherman

Sources
http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm
https://supreme.justia.com/us/92/542/case.html
https://supreme.justia.com/us/116/252/case.html
https://supreme.justia.com/us/307/174/case.html
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf
https://supreme.justia.com/us/60/393/case.html
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/153/535/case.html
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/preview/publiced_preview_briefs_pdfs_09_10_08_1521_PetitionerAmCuHeartlandInst.authcheckdam.pdf
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689
http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndfqu.html
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 08:31:32 am by Nakura »