Author Topic: Athiests erect monument in Florida  (Read 22067 times)

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
This is why Nihilism is awesome: Everything is wrong. Simple. :D

here, i made a nihilism logo:

*snip*

wacha think? too flashy?
Nah. I think the perfect Nihilism logo would be no logo at all.
Fun while it lasted.

Then bitter.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
The true lesson we can take away from all this is how ****ty we as humans are at coming up with collective nouns that adequately describe personal belief systems.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
Oh good grief.  I hate going on work trips in the middle of discussions like this.  OK, I'm not quoting, but a general answer:

The reason why agnosticism is different than atheism is precisely because agnoticism includes agnostic theists and agnostic atheists.  Whereas karajorma seems to think the second word is the primary trait, I'd argue that the first word - agnosticism - is actually the more important one.

Focusing on whether or not an agnostic aligns primarily with theists or atheists puts the primary debate on the existence or non-existence of supernatural entities.  Conversely, putting the emphasis on the 'agnostic' part is a matter of philosophical view of the world.

The reason I keep referencing Heisenberg and Schroedinger along with philosophers is because - in my view - agnosticism of both species shares a common method of viewing the world that is inherently rooted in the scientific method; contrast with atheism that asserts a firm lack of belief in deities or supernatural powers.  Since we do not know and cannot know, we are very much sitting in the scenario Schroedinger premised with his cat thought experiment.  The evidence hasn't flipped either way (and anyone saying otherwise frankly has an agenda; see my experimental design on page 4).

Agnostics are different from atheists, because all agnostics - be their bent diest or atheist - share a common view that the question of deities is inherently unknown and unknowable (at least in the immediate future; some agnostics believe that extends for eternity, others think the question may be answer one day, and still others aren't willing to call that either).  Once again, this is not intellectual cowardice - it's an acknowledgement of the power and meaning of the scientific method.  Atheists generally shortcut the method based on certain assumptions because they believe the data leans a certain way.  While I certainly agree that atheists generally have a stronger argument than deists, this argument is primarily philosophical in nature and grounded on the observable.  While I have the utmost faith (irony alert) in the scientific method, I also acknowledge the philosophical and evidentiary validity of Heisenberg's work, which is very troublesome when thinking about this topic in particular.

Atheists who refer to this view as intellectual cowardice or dishonesty are, in my view, missing the point and tradition of the philosophical roots of science.  Which is why I continually refer to myself as an agnostic rather than an atheist.  While I believe in challenging the irrational byproducts of religious belief which cannot be substantiated (abortion, contraceptives, anti-homosexual policies, imposition of religious ideology on other peoples, religious conflicts, etc), I do not believe that I have enough information to open the box and see if I need to put some food out for the cat or not.  Atheists, on the other hand, have decided the cat is dead and they're going to save money on their grocery bill.  This is why position is fundamentally at odds with Luis, karajorma, and the rest.

To use what Mikes (I think) pointed out:  Atheists, deists, and agnostics flipped a coin.  Atheists think it landed tails.  Deists think it landed heads.  Agnostics see it still spinning in the air and aren't willing to call it until it gets closer to the ground.  I fit in the latter category.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 10:43:16 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline LordMelvin

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
This is why Nihilism is awesome: Everything is wrong. Simple. :D

here, i made a nihilism logo:

*snip* */snip*

wacha think? too flashy?
Nah. I think the perfect Nihilism logo would be no logo at all.
whoooosh!  "Oooooh, look! A pointy thing!"

----------

I looked around and the only half-decent nonbeliever logo I could find[snip]... It seems we're just gonna have to come up with our own. I'll get things started:

The Vulcan Hand Thing

That may not work too well as an athiest symbol, since Nimoy reportedly lifted it from a Jewish ceremony...

Error: ls.rnd.sig.txt not found

  

Offline karajorma

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
@MP-Ryan

There are really only two sides. You are either an atheist or a theist. You either believe in god or don't. Claiming that there is a middle ground is like claiming you're a little bit pregnant. Even if that can be true, it only exists as a temporary state which leads to one of the two others.

The intellectual cowardice lies in the fact that many people want to claim they are part of some third side. This third side simply does not exist. The dishonesty comes from trying to claim that it is possible to believe and not believe at the same time. Trying to claim that atheists all share a similar philosophy is a strawman at best.

Before we go any further, answer this simple question. Are you an atheist?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 11:26:42 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
the question of deities is inherently unknown and unknowable

The VAST majority of atheists would align with you. it is an extremely small minority of the atheist community that holds the position that they know there is no god.

and atheist is not someone who believes there is no god, they are people who do not believe there is. now the former is contained in the latter, but its not a big part.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
Yep, that last one is why I nitpicked Dragon earlier. It's a huge mistake to say atheists believe there isn't a god.


Here's where I annoy some people. Everyone is born an atheist. At birth, no one has the concept of divinity. Everyone is born with a lack of a belief in god. It's only later that some people learn (or are taught) to believe in the existence of gods.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
There are really only two sides. You are either an atheist or a theist. You either believe in god or don't. Claiming that there is a middle ground is like claiming you're a little bit pregnant. Even if that can be true, it only exists as a temporary state which leads to one of the two others.

This speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding or refusal to see what MP-Ryan is trying to say.  There's a reason he's mentioned the Schrodinger's Cat hypothesis and Heisenberg as points of philosophy.

However, regardless of that, I should think that no one is forced to pick Side A or Side B.  That kind of thinking is what causes arguments like this in the very first place.  You disagree with him.  Fine, you have a right to.  He does not, however, have to pick a side simply because you do.

EDIT: And that, at the core of things, is a fundamental right.  This is freedom of religion we're talking here.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
You either believe in god or don't.

The cat is both alive and dead, because it is impossible to prove either position.

God exists and does not exist, because it is impossible to prove either position.

You're demanding a binary state for something that cannot be measured. It's a fundamentally flawed suggestion.
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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
You either believe in god or don't.

The cat is both alive and dead, because it is impossible to prove either position.

God exists and does not exist, because it is impossible to prove either position.

You're demanding a binary state for something that cannot be measured. It's a fundamentally flawed suggestion.
I'm sorry but unless the cat metaphor is an idiom I don't know about, what does that have anything to do with god?
I'm pretty sure I can prove a cat is dead if I kill it.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
...

no, YOU have a fundamental understanding of what the word means.
atheist means literally "not theist"
it's not pic side A or side B it's pick side A or don't. there is no third team, hell, there isn't even a second. there is no ideological play of hands, there is no alternative, you are either A or you are not A. You either believe that there is a god, in which case you are a theist, or you don't, in which case you are an atheist. any additional epistemological discussions on the mater are orthogonal.

it's like asking someone if they think it will rain tomorrow, and they answer with "meteorologists are wrong all the time". It doesn't answer the question, it doesn't even relate to an answer, it's just sort of vaguely related to the question enough that someone might not notice that it didn't answer.

"I don't know" is a subset of things that are not "yes"
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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
Schrodinger's Cat experiment.  Put simply, if we put a cat inside a box, then depending on circumstances we cannot make an empirical statement as to whether or not the cat is alive or deceased due to lack of observed evidence either way.

Therefore, due to lack of observed evidence either way about the existence or lack of of a divine entity, an agnostic cannot make a binary statement on its existence or lack of it.  The answer then, in other words is "I don't know either way.  Maybe?"
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
The actual experiment is slightly more complex than that, but yes, in essence.

...

no, YOU have a fundamental understanding of what the word means.
atheist means literally "not theist"
it's not pic side A or side B it's pick side A or don't. there is no third team, hell, there isn't even a second. there is no ideological play of hands, there is no alternative, you are either A or you are not A. You either believe that there is a god, in which case you are a theist, or you don't, in which case you are an atheist. any additional epistemological discussions on the mater are orthogonal.

it's like asking someone if they think it will rain tomorrow, and they answer with "meteorologists are wrong all the time". It doesn't answer the question, it doesn't even relate to an answer, it's just sort of vaguely related to the question enough that someone might not notice that it didn't answer.

"I don't know" is a subset of things that are not "yes"

I am really trying not to act all smug about this ala Battuta, but such an arbitrary delineation into two equally arbitrary subsets of the same thing, and equally the concept that one "must" choose one or the other or one is not a "true" member of some philosophical/theological group is, quite frankly, laughable.  You demand that a person be one or the other.  That person is by no means bound by anything to choose one or the other.

This is a matter of labels, and when it comes right down to it, you cannot choose what someone else wants to label him or herself.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
...

no one is asking them to.

let us say there is a group of people who are saying that they think cat is, as a matter of fact alive. Alive and not dead. Not possibly alive, possibly dead, but alive. There is no possibility of it being dead because it is alive. now, sure, maybe some members of this group are willing to admit that maybe they are wrong, but they don't think they are, they think they are right about the whole alive thing, that they assert as fact.

is someone who says something like "we cannot make an empirical statement as to whether or not the cat is alive or deceased due to lack of observed evidence either way" a member of the group described above?
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida

I am really trying not to act all smug about this ala Battuta, but such an arbitrary delineation into two equally arbitrary subsets of the same thing, and equally the concept that one "must" choose one or the other or one is not a "true" member of some philosophical/theological group is, quite frankly, laughable.  You demand that a person be one or the other.  That person is by no means bound by anything to choose one or the other.

This is a matter of labels, and when it comes right down to it, you cannot choose what someone else wants to label him or herself.

dude, did you read a single word I said? it is NOT chose one or the other, it IS chose one or don't. atheist is the set of people who are not theists.

I'm going to have to make a visual aid, aren't I?
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
...

no one is asking them to.

let us say there is a group of people who are saying that they think cat is, as a matter of fact alive. Alive and not dead. Not possibly alive, possibly dead, but alive. There is no possibility of it being dead because it is alive. now, sure, maybe some members of this group are willing to admit that maybe they are wrong, but they don't think they are, they think they are right about the whole alive thing, that they assert as fact.

is someone who says something like "we cannot make an empirical statement as to whether or not the cat is alive or deceased due to lack of observed evidence either way" a member of the group described above?

No, dude, you're seriously not getting it.  The cat is not alive or dead.  Until it is observed (in the actual hypothesis there's a radioactive atom whose quantum state is not known and not observed, tied to a geiger meter and a quantity of poison that will be released if radiation is detected), the cat is both and neither because the atom has not been observed and the state has not been determined.

Put as simply as I can put, the cat is not "possibly alive, possibly dead", it is both and neither simultaneously and the only way to know is to observe the atom and collapse the state into one where the cat is either alive or dead.

If you can't grasp that, you can't grasp MP-Ryan's position, and this conversation is pointlessly confrontational.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
people who believe there is a god are blue
people who believe there is no god are red
people who don't know are white

atheists are the red and the white

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
both and neither simultaneously

is this the position of the group I described? if not then someone holding this position here is not a member of the group I described. much like if someone is not a theist they are an atheist.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
both and neither simultaneously

is this the position of the group I described? if not then someone holding this position here is not a member of the group I described. much like if someone is not a theist they are an atheist.

You're still not getting it.

What I'm saying is that, like MP-Ryan, I reject your postulation that there are only two groups.

Someone who believes God does not exist is an atheist.
Someone who believes God does exist is a theist.
Someone who neither believes in God nor does not believe in God because God has not been observed and thinks one cannot know until there God has been observed or proven to not exist is neither an atheist nor a theist.

You're thinking too narrowly.  It's a common problem.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Athiests erect monument in Florida
It is not my position that there are two groups

did you even look at my vinn diagram?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:46:27 am by Bobboau »
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