Author Topic: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues  (Read 10379 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
This. And it should be noted that although Sharia Law is somewhat based on Islam, it was created by men, for men, to appease the men with power and further oppress those without power. Corruption at its finest.

Luis, what seemed to be a good debate now appears to be an attack on Islam and all Muslims worldwide. You said you were sorry if you offended any Muslims, but you are continuing to offend me by 1. grouping all of the Muslims in the world together and insinuating that they are the same as the Muslims in the Middle East, 2. assuming that all Muslims reacted the same way to the Qur'an burning and other injustices, and 3. implying that Muslims in the Middle East are pathetic in their attempts to "improve their performance." AFAIK, they are attempting to improve their lives and countries at this moment. What do you think is happening in Syria? Tunisia? Libya? Change is gradual. You can't force anyone to change immediately, especially if you want them to be the Western definition of "civilized."
Yeah, I basically agree with that. You can't take the worst form of Islam in the entire world and lump all followers of the religion in there. And there are certainly some Muslims who completely oppose those extremists.

Quote
Quote
all I hear is a bird whistling in some lonely tree

Where I live, there are hundreds of flocks, with each bird chirping away. If you took the time to research, you'd find that many Muslims worldwide are against these corrupt practices.

Apollo, I agree with you about how Islam has been corrupted in the Middle East, but I feel the need to point out that there are some educated people there who are trying to resist the twisted faith. Additionally, I believe the culture and the corrupt religion are both the problem.
I feel like you're drawing more of a distinction between them than I would, but whatever.

I suppose the culture is really the underlying problem anyway. It will take any religion (because the same thing would have happened to Christianity) and turn it into a brutal, oppressive ideology that would horrify its founder. After this process is complete, the ruined form of the religion becomes deeply ingrained in the culture, and is used to justify it. Separating them out becomes difficult, as they are now identical in many areas. That is why I say they are functionally the same thing.

I used to think that Islam destroyed the Arabs. After I did some research, however, it became clear that the Arabs destroyed Islam.

Quote
Also,
Quote
it is not the same religion that was revealed to Mohammed.

minor correction  :)
Are you a Muslim?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:42:40 pm by Apollo »
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Luis, aren't Christians supposed to be "servants of God?" are not all peoples supposed to "fear him?" Is he not a "jealous God?" Otherwise the Bible I read as a child is not the same one that you appear to believe. I think everything you said about modern Islamic sects could be said of Christian sects since the fall of the Roman Empire.

 
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Quote
Are you a Muslim?

I am a PhD. I am a scholar of religions with four degrees. Whether I am or am not a Muslim is irrelevant  :p

The answer to your question is yes


 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Quote
Are you a Muslim?

I am a PhD. I am a scholar of religions with four degrees. Whether I am or am not a Muslim is irrelevant  :p

I was about to say that the question in and of itself sounds suspiciously like what Fox News were doing. :p
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Let us be very honest here; the Arabic expression of Islam is the closest to being the original expression of Islam that any modern form is. It is the one with the deepest roots, the closest physical connections to the founding, the custodianship of the holiest sites, and the framework of Arabic tribal culture is the framework in which Islam initially developed and among the least-changed cultures that Islam has impacted as a result.

If Arabic Islam is not the same religion as was revealed to Mohammed, then no one alive practices that religion. (Which is almost certainly true; certainly no modern form of Judaism or Christianity remotely approximates the form of those religions at their founding.) But even so, it has a level of authority beyond that of others to speak on what is authentic Islamic practice because of what I've already noted.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Let us be very honest here; the Arabic expression of Islam is the closest to being the original expression of Islam that any modern form is. It is the one with the deepest roots, the closest physical connections to the founding, the custodianship of the holiest sites, and the framework of Arabic tribal culture is the framework in which Islam initially developed and among the least-changed cultures that Islam has impacted as a result.

If Arabic Islam is not the same religion as was revealed to Mohammed, then no one alive practices that religion. (Which is almost certainly true; certainly no modern form of Judaism or Christianity remotely approximates the form of those religions at their founding.) But even so, it has a level of authority beyond that of others to speak on what is authentic Islamic practice because of what I've already noted.
It's like the original except that virtually everything admirable about it has been destroyed and twisted to suit various agendas. It has no authority for that reason.

You are correct in that probably no one alive practices the original forms of those religions.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Quote
Are you a Muslim?

I am a PhD. I am a scholar of religions with four degrees. Whether I am or am not a Muslim is irrelevant  :p

I was about to say that the question in and of itself sounds suspiciously like what Fox News were doing. :p
Yeah, but they were treating him hostilely and I just asked because knossos's posts made him sound like one.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
It's like the original except that virtually everything admirable about it has been destroyed and twisted to suit various agendas. It has no authority for that reason.

Not really. It's actually a fairly pure strain. The version of Islam that sparked a social and scientific revolution and came close to conquering the world was more Persian than Arabic.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Luis, what seemed to be a good debate now appears to be an attack on Islam and all Muslims worldwide. You said you were sorry if you offended any Muslims, but you are continuing to offend me by 1. grouping all of the Muslims in the world together and insinuating that they are the same as the Muslims in the Middle East, 2. assuming that all Muslims reacted the same way to the Qur'an burning and other injustices, and 3. implying that Muslims in the Middle East are pathetic in their attempts to "improve their performance."


Some things to correct here. First I am not attacking "muslims" anywhere. I was making a comment on the religion, and I think I am free to do that. The pressure you are giving me for a remark I had slashed in a humourous way is an indication of the **** shenanigans I am tired of that religions seem to be obsessed at giving to any stray comments or regards they meet. Yes, I could have been more "sensitive" and yes you could have simply ignored it.

Second, you are still confusing "muslims" with the ideology. Ideology does not function individually, it works on a supra level of common consciousness, it works in the level of what is "supposed" to be said, what is the "correct things to say we believe" and so on, not on what people privately really believe and so on. In this level, what I have seen is not enough, sorry. Muslims will have to step up the plate and shred some traditions or whatever it is that is stopping them from crying enough is enough. They will have to puncture the ideology a bit. I think this is a necessity, and I am sorry that I am an atheist saying these things, but I can no longer afford to just ignore the **** that is happening. The boat is getting smaller by the time.

Third, I never mentioned pathetic. This is a very emotional word and I wasn't being emotional at all in my comments.

Quote
AFAIK, they are attempting to improve their lives and countries at this moment. What do you think is happening in Syria? Tunisia? Libya? Change is gradual. You can't force anyone to change immediately, especially if you want them to be the Western definition of "civilized."

What is happening in Egypt, you might have continued.... I am a much deeper pessimist than you are I guess.

 
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Quote
The pressure you are giving me for a remark I had slashed in a humourous way is an indication of the **** shenanigans I am tired of that religions seem to be obsessed at giving to any stray comments or regards they meet. Yes, I could have been more "sensitive" and yes you could have simply ignored it.
I was willing to ignore it, but you continued to insult Islam and Muslims. If you are so tired of the “shenanigans,” why are you persistent in soiling Muslims worldwide? Do I not have a right to defend my religion and its followers?

Quote
demanding full obedience from His slaves believers.
This doesn't seem humorous at all. In fact, it seems to be passive-aggressive. I don’t see how someone can ignore such an insensitive comment. If it was meant to be humorous, then you would have said the same thing about Christianity and other religions for that matter. Instead, you demonized Islam and elevated Christianity well above Islam. You essentially created a dichotomy of good and bad.

Quote
First I am not attacking "muslims" anywhere.
How are your posts not an attack on Muslims? You are deliberately grouping them together, acting as if they are all the same around the world. You blatantly stated that Muslims will only cry out if a picture of Muhammad was drawn or if a Qur’an was burned. You come across as intolerant; you give yourself some sort of superiority, stating that “you have seen enough” and that you can “no longer afford to ignore this.” I highly doubt that any of the events you mentioned affect you negatively, and I don’t think you should try to judge all Muslims if you are visibly biased. In fact, if you “have a preference of the Christian theology,” why don’t you acknowledge the fact that God is the ultimate judge? Your comments have been inappropriate, even if you were voicing your opinion.

Quote
Second, you are still confusing "muslims" with the ideology.
Please tell me how I am doing so. I am simply responding to your seemingly intolerant posts about Muslims in the world by saying that you shouldn’t group them together and give them a bad name. The ideology of Islam was only relevant when we were talking about the differences between Christianity and Islam.  If you look back to your prior posts, you stated this:
Quote
Incidentally this is why the atheists and agnostics are attacked so often when they dare say anything at all about these matters
Are you not confusing Muslims (in the Middle East) with the ideology? Frankly, I think you are. In the previous paragraph of that post, you talked about how Islam means “[voluntary] submission;” you then implied that this was the justification for the punishment (which was suggested by the minority, or the people with power in the ME) you talked about.

Quote
Muslims will have to step up the plate and shred some traditions or whatever it is that is stopping them from crying enough is enough.
Do you really think it’s that simple? No one can ignore their traditions immediately. No one can just walk up to the corrupt power holders and say “stop.” Once again, change is gradual. Not all Muslims have to “step up to the plate;” look at the Muslims in each continent. Are they what we perceive to be backwards? No, so stop grouping all Muslims together.

Quote
Third, I never mentioned pathetic.
Please reread my post. I never said you mentioned it.

I’m sure that I can’t change your beliefs about Islam (really, I could care less about what you believed), but what you have posted since yesterday has been offensive, insensitive, and ignorant. Your apology was hollow and meaningless. In all sincerity, I am now asking you to stop insulting my religion and all of the Muslims in the world. If you can’t agree with Islam, please have some respect for the people who do agree with it. Try to read your comments in a Muslim’s point of view. You may believe that you were only commenting on a religion, but in reality, you came across as offensive and it appears that you are indeed attacking Muslims. That being said, I’m ready to put this behind us if you are.

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
It's like the original except that virtually everything admirable about it has been destroyed and twisted to suit various agendas. It has no authority for that reason.

Not really. It's actually a fairly pure strain. The version of Islam that sparked a social and scientific revolution and came close to conquering the world was more Persian than Arabic.
It has adopted all of the judgement of Mohammed's teachings with none of the moral restraint and a bunch of added teachings that serve to subjugate women and promote antisemitism to a far greater extent than what was originally there. It also ignores the "all Muslims are equal" doctrine.

 
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline MP-Ryan

  • Makes General Discussion Make Sense.
  • Global Moderator
  • 210
  • Keyboard > Pen > Sword
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
It's like the original except that virtually everything admirable about it has been destroyed and twisted to suit various agendas. It has no authority for that reason.

Not really. It's actually a fairly pure strain. The version of Islam that sparked a social and scientific revolution and came close to conquering the world was more Persian than Arabic.
It has adopted all of the judgement of Mohammed's teachings with none of the moral restraint and a bunch of added teachings that serve to subjugate women and promote antisemitism to a far greater extent than what was originally there. It also ignores the "all Muslims are equal" doctrine.

Careful.  You're talking about Wahhabism more than the generalized Arab strain of Islam.  Arab != Saudi Arabia.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
knossos, I am honestly sorry if I offended you with the slaves remark. That wasn't my intention. I'll leave any other comment to pm's, since the conversation has already gone too far OT (and yeah that's mostly my fault).

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Careful.  You're talking about Wahhabism more than the generalized Arab strain of Islam.  Arab != Saudi Arabia.
Indeed. Saudi Arabia is rather corrupt, and this not only applies to religion, but to the whole country. Bribery, nepotism, blackmail... Saudi Arabia has a lot of problems with that, and they go really, really deep. Which religion their oligarchy corrupts in order to suit their needs has no meaning here, if it's been a Christian country, this wouldn't have changed a thing. This is a common problem when a country suddenly gets rich.
It's like the original except that virtually everything admirable about it has been destroyed and twisted to suit various agendas. It has no authority for that reason.

You are correct in that probably no one alive practices the original forms of those religions.
To be honest, Christianity and especially Catholicism have been subjected to the very same thing. Especially through history, so much that there were numerous attempts to "un-corrupt" Christianity, two them created very major religions on their own right. The holy books are old, but the interpretations are whatever is needed at the moment. It was especially bad before The Reformation came about, but still, the bureaucracy in Vatican is quite a mess (the current Pope is trying to change that, though. We'll see how this goes). It's especially visible in Polish politics, since the right is very Catholic, to the point of fanaticism. Of course, they're not above claiming that "religious values" are whatever suits their agenda at the moment.

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Fox News strikes again! Hilarity ensues
Well, I guess some of them might not be all that extreme. My understanding of the Arab world is limited outside of Saudi and parts of North Africa.

Of course, there must be some moderate Islam there anyway, as there are moderate Muslims. They just don't have much power.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)