[Dragon]

You think that's bad? When the bastards got into power over here, they took away everyone's slaves, and they didn't give any back! No justice, I tell ya.

While you'd probably find plenty of southerners agreeing with you, remember that Poland is in Europe, and it being a 51st state is a new thing. My house certainly didn't keep slaves.

If it was property that was legally his family's, I don't really see that the size makes any difference in terms of the validity of its seizure.  Not that I think restitution is particularly feasible at this point.

Yes, it was, this was, in fact, rather commonplace back when aristocracy were still a thing. And unlike quite a few noble houses, my ancestors actually developed their properties, not merely racked in profits from the very fact they had them. You're right that restitution is rather unlikely at this point though, and even just getting compensated for this might be difficult. Also, with the number of claims that piled up over the years, the actual money received may vary. As such, I'm mostly interested in one heirloom that doesn't need to be divided, i.e. the coat of arms. In fact, I'll be very happy if the money received alongside is just enough for commissioning a gold signet ring and engraving the arms on my pocket watch.

[StarSlayer]

swashbuckler has exactly the right idea

By the same token, most western nations have the highest standards of living, often based on their supremacy during colonial/imperial eras.  Much of the world was exploited by western nations based on their superiority in guns, germs and steel.  Since this distribution is based on inequality and historical precedent the people of the Americas and Europe should have most of their property seized and redistributed and their standards of living forcibly downgraded. 

From one perspective the seizure of property from the Polish nobility is a justified action.  Obviously You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!  However, I'd make a case that lesser developed parts of the world would be justifiably delighted if the scenario I outlined were to occur.  I'd simply caution that just as you don't have sympathy for Dragon, someone else certainly would have no sympathy if something similar befell you, its all a matter of perspective.  Now if you would be magnanimous if your wealth was to be redistributed then I give you mad props man.


I should note I'm pointing this out not because I'm particularly invested in Dragon gaining back his duchy, I just think its an interesting thought experiment.

[Phantom Hoover]

So I should make clear that I don't approve of what the communists did, but I also vehemently oppose the idea that the current state should have to actively restore the inequality of the past.

[StarSlayer]

So I should make clear that I don't approve of what the communists did, but I also vehemently oppose the idea that the current state should have to actively restore the inequality of the past.

Ahh, much clearer thank you.  Yes I do agree with you, Polish nobility would be hard pressed to prove that the current Polish government is responsible for the actions of the Soviet Union and their puppet states.  Without doing research on the technicalities it sounds like the return of titles and the coat of arms business seems reasonable however restitution and or return of lost holdings would be a stretch. 

Of course the Greek Orthodox Church had some funny shenanigans in that regard.

[Dragon]

Note, the government responsible for the "parcelling up" holdings of Polish nobility wasn't the Soviet Union, but People's Republic of Poland, of which the current government is a direct successor. Poland was not an SSR, though it came awfully close at times. While the transition wasn't exactly nonviolent, it was ultimately decided by an election (and yeah, that means some politicians from that time still hog seats in the government...). This means the current government can't just wash it's hands or stick it's head in the sand about this. There are cases of compensating not only nobility, but also landlords from the cities (including Jews robbed back in WWII), Catholic Church (a somewhat controversial matter, let's just say there was some dishonesty involved) and even the Germans deported after WWII (even more controversial, especially that they sometimes did evict current occupants of those properties). Some things are compensated for, but tenement houses in the cities are often returned to their former owners. That said, if anything was to be actually returned, it would be the manor and (perhaps) the lands around it. The village could be compensated for, however.

[swashmebuckle]

You think that's bad? When the bastards got into power over here, they took away everyone's slaves, and they didn't give any back! No justice, I tell ya.

While you'd probably find plenty of southerners agreeing with you, remember that Poland is in Europe, and it being a 51st state is a new thing. My house certainly didn't keep slaves.

I didn't intend any offense with this joke, or to say that the actions of 20th century European nobility were comparable to that of the American slaveholding elite. I just think it's kinda funny how people manage to convince themselves that they have been completely hosed when expected unfair institutionalized advantages fail to materialize.

I'm gonna make myself a coat of arms featuring three swiffer dusters.

[Mongoose]

So I should make clear that I don't approve of what the communists did, but I also vehemently oppose the idea that the current state should have to actively restore the inequality of the past.

Okay, this I can generally get behind; thanks for the clarification.  When it comes down to it, the unfortunate fact is that the vast majority of us living in Europe or Australia or the Americas are here primarily because someone else got screwed out of their land centuries ago, and one can't really expect that a modern-day government can (or should) be able to do more than apologize for past wrongs and try to help those who are disadvantaged in the present day.  It's like the idea of slave reparations that's been floated off-and-on in the US for decades...just who would do the paying, and what would be the criteria for receiving payment?  It'd wind up turning into a massive cluster****.

I am curious about Dragon's coat of arms, though...is it just a matter of having permission to display it openly, or is there something like the physical design that you don't have right now?

[pecenipicek]

I am curious about Dragon's coat of arms, though...is it just a matter of having permission to display it openly, or is there something like the physical design that you don't have right now?

from what i remember about the topic from here (croatia), its basically which line of the family gets to claim the fact that they are the rightful descendants and are therefore entitled to the stuff.

think of it as a shallow moral victory over the rest of your extended family

[Dragon]

Well, it's roughly like that around here, too. It doesn't even come with a title, due to the way inheritance works around here (we might have inherited a title from the father's side of the family, but as I said before, it's unclear). Well, and the fact we're not quite sure who handles those matters here. It doesn't seem to be governed by a separate court like in UK, but at the same time, it seems to be regulated somehow. Also, Polish heraldry is quite peculiar, having more in common with Scottish clan system than with French or German one. This adds to confusion, because there are many variants of a single coat of arms, and they're not bound to a particular family line, but to a clan (as such, they can be inherited through the mother's line, and are seldom joined). It might be that all branches of our (quite big) family are entitled to some variant of the arms.
Anyway, since it's not of immediate importance (and probably costly), I'll resolve those matters when I'm not busy with other stuff.

[TrashMan]

WEel, AFAIK, a state that proclaims itself a successor state to another state, also inherits all of that's states legal responsibilitites. (including paying damages, debts, etc..) In other words, with the positives it also gets the negatives.

Technicly Serbia took on the mantle as successor of Yugoslavia, and given that the theft in question is only 50 years old or so, I think it should be still relevant. However, things being as they are, nothing is going to happen. What little compensation my aunt did manage to get amounts to a little more than 1000 dollars every 6 months.

[Mobius]

My family, considering both my father and my mother's sides, lost due to various circumstances:

- A house and other properties worth 1,000,000$ in New York City, due to a legal fight between two relatives;
- Lands and a lot of money, lost after a relative whose name and surname matched mine 100% went MIA during World War I;
- Jewelry worth many thousand €, stolen some two decades ago;

And other things I either don't remember or I haven't been informed about. I'm working up to make up for these losses, though.

[Droid803]

I've heard fairly similar things from my mother.
Her side of the family was quite rich before the whole Cultural Revolution thing, something like her grandfather being ridiculously wealthy (land)lord with the whole multiple-wives thing, even. The commies ended all of that (for better or for worse, I guess). Story goes something like, after the whole take-people's-**** thing happened, and before my mother was born, my grandparents on my mother's side and my aunt would share a bed, with my aunt in the middle, since she was a kid back then, thus shorter, and could actually use the middle portion of the only blanket they were left with because it had a massive hole burned into it. Apparently, their idea of communisim/equality was that the more you had before the less you had after.
Looks like they recovered pretty well though - grandfather on mothers side put things back together in HK and started up a pretty successful toy manufacturing company - made barbies for mattel for the longest time until it just wasn't profitable anymore due to outsourcing to mainland china, so he closed/sold the factory/retired (less than 10 years ago, I would like to say, but I'm no good at keeping track of time). I doubt anyone's ever getting the stuff they took  back then though, China still is technically "communist", heh.