Author Topic: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts  (Read 22967 times)

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Offline qwadtep

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
The commentary on the Ancients cutscenes raises an interesting question. If Alpha 1 is picking these visions up via Nagari, who's transmitting them? Are they simply "residual signals" from the Ancients themselves? Is some other power deliberately sending him these messages?

Perhaps an entity along the lines of ken.  Some anima probing around and transmitting information at things to see what happens.  [/blatant conjecture]
Or perhaps the Ancient records themselves are Nagari-capable. The Ancients had no idea who would stumble across their dying message, or how they might communicate--it's only logical that they'd encode their findings in every way they knew how. It's similar to our own problems marking nuclear dump sites. Nagari would be an ideal option, since there's no language barrier--your quantum computer sends out a message saying "danger" and the recipient's brain translates it as "danger" in whatever concept they possess.

So when the records were uncovered, Alpha 1, being Nagari-sensitive, immediately began receiving the message. The Vasudans who discovered it, thanks to their more powerful connection to the Network, probably experienced something similar, which is why they immediately sent a distress signal saying they had found records indispensable in combating the Shivans and staving off extinction. But for the rest of the Nagari-dull GTA, the records had to be translated the old-fashioned way, so the breakthrough only occurred late in the war.

 

Offline SypheDMar

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
In any case; Yay for more Battuta posts!
:D
I've always wanted to know how you interpreted canon. The research you've done is astounding!

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
As we all know, energy cannot be used but only transformed from one form to another. So, we have the heat energy given off by beam weapons overloading. Why not convert the heat energy, into kinetic energy to turn a dynamo which can in turn transfer the kinetic energy back into electrical energy to power the jump drives, or to provide more power to other systems. (whether this is realistic/possible... perhaps someone could shed some light here)

This is going to be big but it should answer all questions on the "getting waste heat from turrets to generate energy"-problem:
Little introduction on myself: I'm currently studying system electronics and part of my education involved power plants and energy production.

There are several laws in physics which you have to take into account, here. What you're describing is actually already done in power plants of the 21st century.
1. Every system in physics strives to reach it's lowest energy state. It's the reason why elements form molecules. Sodium and chlorine form a bond where their outer electron shells are full which is a lower energy state for every atom. The surplus energy in this reaction is radiated as electromagnetic radiation.
2. Every system strives to maximum entropy. Meaning the temperature within a gas will even out over time. Maximum entropy means minimal energy density, a lower energy state and you need energy to "order" the gas and get an uneven energy distribution, again.
3. Energy does not simply "sit in your power grid". You have to store it in capacitors, or any other energy buffer of the 24st century. Storing energy is a lossy operation duo to the resistance of conductors and isolators.
4. Every energy conversion into useable energy (maybe electric power) is lossy. You will always get waste heat to deal with until maximum entropy is reached.

To extract energy (with any device known in the 21st century) you need displacement of energy or moving energy. Movement is generated with a temperature gradient, for example. But also with pressure differences. (A cold and a hot place, for example). The heat will move into your colder medium, hot gas and high pressure moves towards the colder, low pressure environments. A greater difference in energy potentials forces more energy to move, therefor you get more out of it. I don't have to say that it's not worth to try extracting energy from the heat dissipation of a human being. The differences in potential energy are to small.

So what can be used to exploit this:
- Beam weapons probably produce a vast amount of waste heat which can be used.
- Laser turrets are a nice source, as well.
- Any waste heat from high temperature reactors, but they usually already use their waste heat for power generation.

What can't be used:
- Computer equipment. (Which does not produce that much waste heat, sadly. And furthermore, it's more likely that quantum computers are used in the 24st century, which have to be cooled down to only a couple of kelvin. Meaning the gradient is to small for sufficient energy production.)
- Waste heat from life support and air conditioning. (These systems have to operate at their most efficient point. Also, they consume energy to cool or heat the environment for the crew. Extracting energy from this system would be the same as decreasing the energy you put into the system. This is the reason why your fridge or air conditioning does not produce energy from it's waste heat.)
- Waste heat from dynamos or energy conversion systems themselves. (This exhaust has already reached the state of maximum entropy and can not be used)

How would you do it:
It could be possible to use a cooling grid, which takes heat from all weapon hardpoints, cooling them and taking the heat to an additional power plant.
This power plant extracts energy from the surplus heat of your turrets and creates power for your ship. But wait! You need a temperature gradient to extract energy! This power plant would also have heat sinks, probably build into the ships hull to get rid of it's own used waste heat. After all, the coolant for your turrets has to be cooled down, again. 1. To create a heat gradient in order to extract energy in the first place. 2. To cool the turrets, again.
Every power plant has to get rid of entropy, or else it stops functioning.
Such a system would only prevent some of the energy wasted to heat actually become wasted completely. It's more likely a solution to make your ship more efficient in energy use, but there will still be waste heat.
This energy has to be stored within a buffer, as well and must be available for fast access. Capacitors in our real world heat up if they're under heavy load. (Lots of charging and discharging) the amount of energy used by weapon systems must be incredible high. This creates a 2nd source of waste heat which has to go somewhere.

Where are the limits of this system:
- heat dissipation through the ships hull. (This is not an easy task, since the only way to radiate heat away in space is actual radiation and not conduction, also external events like incoming warheads and heat from stars add to your heat balance)
- heat accumulation within the cooling cycle. (It's a cooling system, therefor this is a bad thing)
- Actual cooling power needed by your turrets. (They still have to be able to maintain fire)

What does this mean for beam overloads?
- It still happens when fire control is faced with a heavy battle.
- Every turret, even though cooled, has it's own problems with internal heat building up. The conduction of heat within a material is limited by it's chemical and physical properties
- The same amount of heat has to exit the ship, there's no difference. We generate energy from moving energy potentials not from heat itself.

What do I think of it:
Well, I think in the 24st century, space fairing warships are already doing this. We do it nowdays already. It does not change the fact that huge space ships with weapons which probably drain gigawatts of power each wouldn't have significant problems with their heat management. After all, it is much harder to radiate heat away in space. An environment, where no heat conduction to other materials touching the hull exists.
But I like the fact that someone actually thought of this possibility, since it would be quite an improvement for energy production.
Sadly, we don't know how much energy a subspace jump actually takes or how much beam weapons drain, but I would assume it's a lot!

I hope I could clear out some questions. I'm afraid I actually summoned new ones. ^^
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 02:30:35 pm by Alzurana »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
Producing heat (energy in general) in a space ship is typically much less of a problem than getting rid of it. Thermoregulation is troublesome in a vacuum, even in deep space with 2.8 Kelvin background temperature.

The idea of recycling some of the waste energy (heat) from the beam turrets is a neat idea, but personally I feel like the FreeSpace universe is on a tech level where energy production is not really a problem, they can just make more. They can rip holes in time-space... with that kind of on-demand power generation ability, I think something like capacitor or battery banks for storing the surplus energy would be a waste of space and mass on their capital ships, which could be taken by heatsinks, radiator arrays, and armour.

This is based on the assumption that the power requirements for running the beams is minimal compared to operating the subspace jump drives. Personally I feel the assumption is justified but your mileage may vary. The rate of fire of beam cannons is probably more limited by the amount of waste heat they produce, than the total energy production limits by the shipboard reactors.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
This is based on the assumption that the power requirements for running the beams is minimal compared to operating the subspace jump drives. Personally I feel the assumption is justified but your mileage may vary. The rate of fire of beam cannons is probably more limited by the amount of waste heat they produce, than the total energy production limits by the shipboard reactors.
I don't think that assumption holds in Blue Planet canon; or, at least, not for TEI beams.
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schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

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<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
Producing heat (energy in general) in a space ship is typically much less of a problem than getting rid of it. Thermoregulation is troublesome in a vacuum, even in deep space with 2.8 Kelvin background temperature.
I agree with that, dissipation is the biggest problem.

The idea of recycling some of the waste energy (heat) from the beam turrets is a neat idea, but personally I feel like the FreeSpace universe is on a tech level where energy production is not really a problem, they can just make more.
Using some of your waste heat to generate power isn't to stupid, since your efficiency rises.(as long as waste heat is in a useable state, eg. low entropy) Less fuel requirements and therefor a longer deploy time for warships until they need to be refueled. Also assuming the efficiency of a turret is at only 50-75%. Besides: The heat is on your ship, anyway. You have to get rid of it either way, why not use it? Heat sinks and such remain the same, the only thing added to your ship is a rather small generator section integrated into the cooling system.

With that kind of on-demand power generation ability, I think something like capacitor or battery banks for storing the surplus energy would be a waste of space and mass on their capital ships, which could be taken by heatsinks, radiator arrays, and armour.
You will always need high performance energy storage systems in high power environments. Even if you're able to produce the burst power for your weapon systems, that energy has to travel through your power grid and the output of your reactors has to react on sudden energy consumers such as beam weapons. This takes time in which the voltage drops significantly on your power grid. (lets assume we use electricity) Nowdays, capacitors prevent this by storing small amounts of energy and filling the gaps, should the voltage drop. They respond very fast, faster than any power source could, because the charge is already available in electrons. No conversion from chemical to electrical energy needed as with batteries.

This is based on the assumption that the power requirements for running the beams is minimal compared to operating the subspace jump drives.
Since the original post says "Charging a jump drive is an expensive operation, and it oftens demands enough of a warship's power to negatively impact combat performance." I'd say beams are not minimal in power usage.

Also, keep in mind that complex explanations like this enrich the story ;)

*EDIT:
I remember a mission in BP WIH Act 1, where the cooling system of a Tev ship is actually mentioned. After the attack on the lunar domes.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 05:54:38 pm by Alzurana »

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
This is based on the assumption that the power requirements for running the beams is minimal compared to operating the subspace jump drives.
Since the original post says "Charging a jump drive is an expensive operation, and it oftens demands enough of a warship's power to negatively impact combat performance." I'd say beams are not minimal in power usage.

This is far more an indicator of the power draw of the jump drive than it is of the beams.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
This is based on the assumption that the power requirements for running the beams is minimal compared to operating the subspace jump drives.
Since the original post says "Charging a jump drive is an expensive operation, and it oftens demands enough of a warship's power to negatively impact combat performance." I'd say beams are not minimal in power usage.

This is far more an indicator of the power draw of the jump drive than it is of the beams.
If the beam's power consumption was trivial in comparison to the jump drive, diverting power from the charging operation to firing a beam wouldn't significantly slow it down, and therefore charging the jump drives would not negatively impact combat performance... or so the reasoning presumably goes.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
Using some of your waste heat to generate power isn't to stupid, since your efficiency rises.(as long as waste heat is in a useable state, eg. low entropy) Less fuel requirements and therefor a longer deploy time for warships until they need to be refueled. Also assuming the efficiency of a turret is at only 50-75%. Besides: The heat is on your ship, anyway. You have to get rid of it either way, why not use it? Heat sinks and such remain the same, the only thing added to your ship is a rather small generator section integrated into the cooling system.
You can't "get rid of" heat, as per the second law of thermodynamics. It can only be moved around. That's how thermoelectric generators function: power is extracted from the thermal gradient between a heat sink and a cold sink as they equalize. Maintaining the cold sink requires work, which in turn generates more waste heat, which in turn increases the amount of work required to maintain the cold sink. See Atomic Rockets.

At the end of the day you're best off just getting fresh superfluid helium or whatever from the local Anemoi and letting planetary facilities reprocess your spent coolant.

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
You can't "get rid of" heat, as per the second law of thermodynamics. It can only be moved around.
Thanks for the lesson but you basically repeated my own words. I'd recommend you read my previous post (the LARGE one here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86710.msg1773784#msg1773784 ).
Since it seems like you got some insight I'd like to hear recommendations on my actual statement to this topic and not just a single reply with no context. :)

*EDIT: It is possible to dissipate heat through the ships hull. However, only the "night side" of the ship can be used, obviously. It's unlikely that battleships carry vast amounts of coolant around which they dump into space after it's used. Maybe just for emergencies like crash jumps or in the 4th War in Heaven mission, where the GTD Meridian does so. Probably to crash jump as well.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 08:15:43 am by Alzurana »

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
You can't "get rid of" heat, as per the second law of thermodynamics. It can only be moved around.
Thanks for the lesson but you basically repeated my own words. I'd recommend you read my previous post (the LARGE one here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86710.msg1773784#msg1773784 ).
Since it seems like you got some insight I'd like to hear recommendations on my actual statement to this topic and not just a single reply with no context. :)

*EDIT: It is possible to dissipate heat through the ships hull. However, only the "night side" of the ship can be used, obviously. It's unlikely that battleships carry vast amounts of coolant around which they dump into space after it's used. Maybe just for emergencies like crash jumps or in the 4th War in Heaven mission, where the GTD Meridian does so. Probably to crash jump as well.
You said it, and then you immediately forgot and concluded that 24th century starships must recycle energy simply because the technology exists today. Waste heat is the biggest concern for a spacefaring vessel, and doubly so for a spacefaring warship. You continually produce it, you don't have the mass to absorb it, you can't shake it via convection, radiation is slow and presents a massive vulnerability; handwaving with "it's the future so it isn't a problem" doesn't cut it.

Of course they don't just dump coolant--that's just wasteful and accomplishes nothing. What I meant is that, lacking any apparent radiator subsystems of their own (if they existed, bomber strikes on exposed radiators would dominate the strategic picture), heat management is probably part of the logistics chain: when you get too hot, you just dock with a station or dedicated freighter, cycle coolant and transfer the heat to their heat sinks, and go back to killing Shivans or Zods or whatever. The freighter hauls your hot steamy load to a planetary installation somewhere to dispense. Planets are giant heat sinks, which is why energy recycling works on Earth--with so much mass, the waste heat is trivial.

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
can i just remind everyone that ships in BP have a speed limit of sixty miles an hour and shoot lasers that travel slower than bullets
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
heat management is probably part of the logistics chain: when you get too hot, you just dock with a station or dedicated freighter, cycle coolant and transfer the heat to their heat sinks, and go back to killing Shivans or Zods or whatever.
That is a very interesting concept not many people think about, actually. Combined with active systems which cool your coolant and dump heat into big, insulated heat buffer.

One thing bugs me, though:
handwaving with "it's the future so it isn't a problem" doesn't cut it.
I agree with that statement, there must be a reasonable explanation otherwise your SiFi setting either breaks the fourth wall or it's pure fiction. But is't still science fiction. Assuming better methods to radiate heat away, for example, isn't such a crime. To support the story or playability as long as it's not the biggest bogus anyone ever constructed.
Or as Phantom Hoover said, and I loled on that:
can i just remind everyone that ships in BP have a speed limit of sixty miles an hour and shoot lasers that travel slower than bullets

Speaking of physics, eh.
Same with warheads that yield antimatter charges (SERVAL POUNDS!), which only hurt an Orion by 4%. ;)

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
Hello, long time lurker, first time poster. Let me say right off how much I love BP. Massive kudos to everyone who has worked on it.

Now to throw in my two cents on thermal management.

Barring some exotic method of pushing heat into hyperspace or some other universe, every single erg of energy generated on or absorbed (e.g. from the sun, or incoming weapons fire) by a ship in space must be dissipated to maintain thermal equilibrium. That means if you are fully using a 1 gigawatt reactor, you have to dissipate a full gigawatt of power. When in combat, some of this is thrown at opposing ships either as kinetic energy or beams. The rest must be either temporarily stored in a heat sink or radiated into space. This will be true even if you are extracting work from it for all the other little things necessary for a spaceship. I like the idea of replacing coolant or heat sinks as part of the logistics train. Other possibilities include spending some time in the upper atmosphere of a Jovian planet to add conduction and convection to the heat transfer. Despite some of its other flaws, the Mass Effect games have quite a lot of pretty good flavor text on thermal management. While it clearly isn't visually done in the FS2 engine, you could conceivably spray coolant drops from the front of the ship and then catch them at the rear of the ship. This spray would increase the surface to volume ratio of the coolant, and make it a more efficient radiator.

Another tactical aspect that should be considered, is that unless you hide your heat sinks and close up your radiators, your ship will pretty much always be visible to a passive infrared scan. Of course, if you aren't radiating, you will be building up more and more heat. So there is a limited time before you will have to turn off stealth mode, extend your radiators, and cool off.

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
can i just remind everyone that ships in BP have a speed limit of sixty miles an hour and shoot lasers that travel slower than bullets

QFT.

Welcome to fiction meets reality, where we quickly discover that most laws of science have as much credence as the creators choose to adhere to. Even as an aspiring fiction creator, I know my limits of reality vs fiction. The general audience, unless they're really that science savvy, generally doesn't care or accepts the handwavium with gusto. They wanna see stuff explode and kick ass.

They want dog fighters in space? They get dog fighters in space.

That being said, I would wonder how plausible heat management would work in FS2, because Mass Effect was one of the few universes that seriously put thought into balancing sciences vs applied able-to-kick-assium.

Another universe that does try to balance its handwavium is Gundam (Universal Century specifically). Yes, a series built around giant robotic suits. The series creators weren't stupid when they produced it, and they even had the foresight to invent handwavium that fit the bulk of the universe like a glove.
Blame Blue Planet for my Freespace2 addiction.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
Considering the relative impossibility grade of subspace technology and complete nonsense like UD-8 Kayser or Meson Bombs... I think it might actually be possible for FreeSpace tech to dump thermal energy into subspace.

If it's possible to establish a temperature gradient between normal space and subspace (subspace being at lower temperature), and keep that connection stable, it should be not only possible to dump extra heat into subspace, but to make the process output work.

:shaking:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
If it's possible to establish a temperature gradient between normal space and subspace (subspace being at lower temperature), and keep that connection stable, it should be not only possible to dump extra heat into subspace, but to make the process output work.

And to add a little flavor and action to storytelling one can say that the amount of heat transferred is still limited, which allows us to use beam overloads as valuable asserts of storytelling. :D

I like how your guys minds work! ;)

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
the shivans are actually radical environmentalists trying to halt the process of subspacial warming at all costs

****

i've become drew karpyshyn
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
no worst sin than that

 
Re: Canon references for Blue Planet concepts
I think it might actually be possible for FreeSpace tech to dump thermal energy into subspace.
Haha, I think the BP tech entry for the BFRed alludes to something like that for that particular beam.

Anyway, my bet's on magic heatsinks that voodoo all that heat away.