Author Topic: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)  (Read 7181 times)

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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Zeus has a long and storied history of sleeping around, and partaking in some pretty kinky ****.  In Jesus, God and Mary's case there was no intercourse, hence the whole "immaculate conception."

Or Mary was just the first woman to be believed when she ended up pregnant but tearfully claimed didn't have sex, thus ruining the excuse for every woman after her.  Alternatively, there is an extremely remote biological possibility that Mary could indeed have produced a child asexually.  Too bad we didn't have DNA gels before 0 CE or we could have gotten to the bottom of the whole affair. ;)

Mary:  "Joe, I'm pregnant."
Joseph: "Sonofa*****!"
Mary:  "No, it was God!  Wait, what did you just call me?!"

Well duh, but this is comparing one myth to another, not saying "this myth is a myth". Why bother?

Tangent: doesn't the hypothetical "rare asexual reproduction" scenario basically just produce a clone? So it couldn't be male.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
@MP-Ryan: Regarding Africa, this is a non-sequetur. AIDS is spread by people with multiple-partner behaviors, and such people are highly unlikely to be practicing Catholics.
Th Catholic Church banned condoms on the grounds that they do more harm than good by preventing children from being born and discouraging martial fidelity. Catholics in Africa advocated a more effective solution to AIDS: abstinence till marriage. There's no denying it works... when it's practiced. :rolleyes:
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Quote
Regarding Africa, this is a non-sequetur. AIDS is spread by people with multiple-partner behaviors, and such people are highly unlikely to be practicing Catholics.

I must admit, I disagree with that statement, I don't think there's any real evidence that being a practicing Catholic ensures monogamy, that's a human variable not a religious one. Considering recent revelations within the Church itself, if even the Holy representatives of the Faith can fall prey to human fallacies, I do not think there is any real weight to the concept that the followers of that Faith would be any more immune to them.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Zeus has a long and storied history of sleeping around, and partaking in some pretty kinky ****.  In Jesus, God and Mary's case there was no intercourse, hence the whole "immaculate conception."

Or Mary was just the first woman to be believed when she ended up pregnant but tearfully claimed didn't have sex, thus ruining the excuse for every woman after her.  Alternatively, there is an extremely remote biological possibility that Mary could indeed have produced a child asexually.  Too bad we didn't have DNA gels before 0 CE or we could have gotten to the bottom of the whole affair. ;)

Mary:  "Joe, I'm pregnant."
Joseph: "Sonofa*****!"
Mary:  "No, it was God!  Wait, what did you just call me?!"

Then again, if this is your approach I'm just wasting my time... :rolleyes:
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Quote
Regarding Africa, this is a non-sequetur. AIDS is spread by people with multiple-partner behaviors, and such people are highly unlikely to be practicing Catholics.

I must admit, I disagree with that statement, I don't think there's any real evidence that being a practicing Catholic ensures monogamy, that's a human variable not a religious one. Considering recent revelations within the Church itself, if even the Holy representatives of the Faith can fall prey to human fallacies, I do not think there is any real weight to the concept that the followers of that Faith would be any more immune to them.

I don't see how it's not a religious one, and if it's not than religious teachings on sexuality/condoms/etc wouldn't be able to effect AIDS either way.
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
It's not a religious issue because it's been going on for centuries in every corner of the globe, regardless of what the local religion says.

Like religion throughout history, picking and choosing is the problem, it's easy to say 'Ah, the Bible says women should obey their men', and 'The Bible says I mustn't use a Condom', so those parts of Catholic doctrine were emphasized, whilst other parts were downplayed. Intervention by the Church on the ground would have had an impact because it already has in the opposite direction. The Catholic teachings are used as an excuse not to use a condom, so if the Catholic preaching changes, the excuse is taken away.

Basically, a plethora of Churches have failed to get people to stop acting like people, and refusal to endorse methods that could at least mitigate the potential damage of people being people only increases the damage it does.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
this thing is all over the place.

but anyway, as others have said it's hard to distinguish between religion and politics for much of history. Religion certainly is an excellent catalyst for oppression and violence right now.

I don't hear that many atheists talking up about the inevitable collapse of religion, I hear hope for it, and anything that indicates it does get promoted, but most atheists are more worried about it getting stronger if anything.
but besides this how is making this a popularity contest going to help anything? (though that net loss seems suspicious, from what I understand global growth is fairly flat)

Europe's dark age was a time of ignorance and superstition, mainly due to the collapse of education as a result of de-urbanization. all of the worlds knowledge was in books few could read. religion was a highly effective tool for controlling the ignorant masses, keeping the serfs in line. this was the time and place that defined all of the typical anti-religious cliches and ties back into that whole "hard to separate religion from politics back in the day" thing.
one thing I would like to specifically address though is I find calling anyone from this time or earlier a scientist highly questionable, these were 'natural philosophers'. you cannot name any oppressed scientists prior to 1500 because there really weren't any of them, science is a fairly new thing. now what I would like to see is a listing of people from 800-1500 in Europe who proclaimed anything significantly opposed to Christianity on any sort of (preferably natural) philosophical grounds. Religion retards science not (typically) by opposing it wholesale, but by making it culturally/politically impossible to teach truths that are not inline with said religion.

That last one, though perhaps technically right on some presented details, is fairly wrong in the bigger point, there were TONs of similar mythological figures historically. not that I consider it important, but I said something about all the other points.

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
@MP-Ryan: Regarding Africa, this is a non-sequetur. AIDS is spread by people with multiple-partner behaviors, and such people are highly unlikely to be practicing Catholics.
Th Catholic Church banned condoms on the grounds that they do more harm than good by preventing children from being born and discouraging martial fidelity. Catholics in Africa advocated a more effective solution to AIDS: abstinence till marriage. There's no denying it works... when it's practiced. :rolleyes:

and it's effectively impossible for the vast majority of people to practice it.

also how is "preventing children from being born" a harm?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Quote
Regarding Africa, this is a non-sequetur. AIDS is spread by people with multiple-partner behaviors, and such people are highly unlikely to be practicing Catholics.

I must admit, I disagree with that statement, I don't think there's any real evidence that being a practicing Catholic ensures monogamy, that's a human variable not a religious one. Considering recent revelations within the Church itself, if even the Holy representatives of the Faith can fall prey to human fallacies, I do not think there is any real weight to the concept that the followers of that Faith would be any more immune to them.

I don't see how it's not a religious one, and if it's not than religious teachings on sexuality/condoms/etc wouldn't be able to effect AIDS either way.

It does by spreading the idea that condoms don't work, that celibacy works better, etc. Well, doh, celibacy does work better, the problem is that in the heat of the moment the thoughts of many aren't on celibacy at all, and that condom they could have bought or be given they just dismissed previously because of the words of the priests.

Your thinking rationale could be reversed here, pay attention: if all catholics are celibates (yeah lol), then why the need for even discussing condoms in the first place? Yet they did, ad nauseam.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Thing is, we're talking about a place where women buy fish with sex (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26186194) because it is the only currency they have. Whilst the long term solution is development, that doesn't help the short-term situation, whilst the repairs might take years, damage control could be improved right now.

e: And lets not ignore the male psyche here, Kenya is 25% Catholic, but I wonder how many 20 minute conversions there are when a woman asks a man to wear protection?

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
I would hardly call it impossible.
Almost all these points (science, oppression) already had answers given either by me or the OP, so I'm not going to beat the dead horse.
And one of the most important principles of Christianity is that children are a blessing, because every life is valuable and everyone has a right to live. A principle sadly neglected these days...

@Luis: I said "till Marriage..."
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Th Catholic Church banned condoms on the grounds that they do more harm than good by preventing children from being born and discouraging martial fidelity. Catholics in Africa advocated a more effective solution to AIDS: abstinence till marriage. There's no denying it works... when it's practiced. :rolleyes:

And if that was all they did, you might have a point.

Nothing however justifies the Catholic Church spreading the outright lie that the HIV virus was small enough that it could pass straight through condoms. Spread that lie amongst people who already don't particularly want to be using condoms in the first place and you're going to kill a lot of people.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 07:41:18 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
It's kind of like the subject of Masturbation, until very recently the Catholic Church was under the impression that, because of their teachings, no Roman Catholic ever masturbated (because this is also spilling seed on barren ground).

The Catholic Church has been very quiet about the sin of Masturbation lately because they know they are onto a loser, and yet it falls under the exact same doctrine as Condoms...

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
@ Karajorma: I don't know, the failure rate on condoms seems suspiciously high.
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius - Silent Threat: Reborn - Operation Templar - Sync, Transcend, Windmills - The Antagonist - Inferno, Inferno: Alliance

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
@ Karajorma: I don't know, the failure rate on condoms seems suspiciously high.

It's significantly lower than the failure rate on not using condoms.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Failure is physical damage to the prophylactic itself, not stuff getting through the rubber, Condoms are, on average, around 72% effective, i.e. 18 out of 100 will split, though this number increases to the high 90% if the Condom is used correctly, so education is, once again, the key.

e: This is why most birth-control advice suggests not relying wholly on the use of Condoms, however as a prevention for STD's, even 72% protection is far better than 0%.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
@ Karajorma: I don't know, the failure rate on condoms seems suspiciously high.

I edited my post to include a link. The Vatican didn't claim the condoms failed. They claimed that the virus could actually pass straight through the condom. Not only is this a flat out lie, it's an easily verifiable lie. Fill a condom with a solution of the HIV virus. Stick it in a beaker full of water, after 10 minutes test the beaker. 

Don't try to justify them lying and resulting in thousands if not millions of deaths.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
I would hardly call it impossible.

give me an example of a reasonably decent sized population that practiced it well.
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Offline Beskargam

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Re: Devastating Arguments Against Christianity (Courtesy of the Internet)
Points that I have to contribute

1. During the middle ages, the church was important in the preservation of knowledge in that they were essentially the only organization both storing books and transcribing them when they fell apart or even translating them at all. This is all prior to the printing press.

2. As someone who was raised Catholic, standard Catholic teaching holds that immaculate conception refers to how Mary was given child by the holy spirit, not her lack of sin.