Author Topic: Thief reboot / Bioshock Infinite - game theory =)  (Read 15836 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
BSI is unquestionably about the choice to use force against oppression, and who you become after that choice. But it decides the question is unanswerable, and, in the end, says that while the same pattern of oppression will repeat itself endlessly, everywhere, the only way to stop it is to never permit it to arise in the first place. The oppressed becomes God and God undoes it all.

A big ol' shrug at the subaltern: maybe, in another world...

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
To each their own.  But to pick a few examples...

Quote
I can't think of a single example of any fiction which I could with a straight face say I think is about something outside the plot synopsis.

Depends on what you've read.  To pick a few well-known examples though... is Gulliver's Travels (Jonathan Swift) really about visits to lilliputians, Houyhnhnms, etc?  Is Lord of the Flies (William Golding) about a bunch of boys that go feral? How about the I, Robot collection (Isaac Asimov) - is it really just about robots in every day life? The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Douglas Adams) - about Earth being blown up and interstellar travel? I think you'll find that most works of fiction have a lot more to them than their plot synopsis.

I've read very very little, and none of those and no other remarkable classics either that I recall. I of course know what those are about plot-wise and have seen adaptations, but I've never read the books.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
I think Infinite mostly doesn't even attempt to be art in any way specific to games. Unlike BioShock 1, it tells a story about choice that could fit well in a movie, a book, a television show. It doesn't much leverage the unique capabilities of its medium. Far from a particular triumph or watermark for the art of game narrative, I think it's actually a bit of a dead end. I think Bastion or Alpha Protocol are both much sharper examples of how games can be written to succeed in a way possible only in games.

Ok, I agree here - to an extent.  Bioshock itself could have been told in a film or book itself as player agency in that game largely had little in the way of consequence; the ending variations were utterly contrived morality points primarily - the game spends most of its time building a critique of objectivism and individualism, and then tops it off with a morality vignette that equates objectivism/individualism bad, and altruism good.  The whol ramming in your face of "short term rewards, long term detriment" vs "short term pain, long term gain" throughout the subtext and its use to critique objectivism and individualism had all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the face.  Not that I think Bioshock was a bad game or that subtext must be subtle (I mean, I really did enjoy the hell out of the game), but it didn't aspire to do much with its narrative.  Gameplay, sure - Bioshock improved a lot on the things that made System Shock 2 a great game and streamlined many of them, but its narrative and environmental design both fell a little flat.

I think Bioshock Infinite, flawed in execution though it was, was a necessary conclusion to the whole 'Shock' concept of games, which ultimately are about the limited effects of agency in world's beyond our control.  System Shock 2 took aim at the meaning of agency in a world where gods are active and beyond your limited control; Bioshock took aim at agency in a world where man claims to be god; Bioshock Infinite is a commentary on how agency exists where there is no god at all, but rather simple cosmic inevitability.  [And talking about this in general and the way all three titles interact with force and power makes me think Mr. Levine is a fan of Foucault, but I digress.]  BSI spends the entire game illustrating that agency and choice are utterly meaningless in the player's world, and then Elizabeth points out that choices are always possible and meaningful in a way that never even occurred to the player through the entire game.  It's a commentary on linear thinking itself, and the forces that shape it.

Whereas you seem to find that the game hates itself, I think the ending and Elizabeth are actually examples that that is not the case - the point that choice is indeed both meaningful and possible, always, and that any arena that purports otherwise can be wiped away and dismissed as irrelevant.  I don't think that's so much self-loathing as simply an example - the player has just seen a world in which they were led to believe that they were the protagonist, that they had no choices, but what they did was nonetheless meaningful... and Elizabeth simply says no.  So long as you exert no agency, you are irrelevant and unimportant, and I reject you and your experiences outright to the point of their very existence.

Where you find the aspects of the game that seem self-loathing vapid, I find them a fascinating commentary in games themselves - "You have no agency; you are meaningless and irrelevant."  Elizabeth is a reasonably subtle statement to the entire gaming industry, for a game that does not involve the player has no purpose or relevance is unworthy.  And it's bloody marvelous that someone actually demonstrated this in a game that was widely praised... just for all the wrong reasons.

I think BSI is a bold statement that does advance the art form, and exercise in demonstrating to players why lack of agency is unsatisfying, unfulfilling, and ultimately meaningless, and a cry to move games forward as art and not Call of Duty #2437: Ghostly black zombie warfare tactics.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Huh

Well I must admit I hadn't considered BSI as intentionally built on bad design elements in order to convey a beyond the 4th wall message.  I had just finished DE:HR and was miffed that all player choice was taken away and I was railroaded into senseless violence.  I felt completely unmotivated in most cases to kill any of the opponents and felt it was a chore I had to trudge through to progress the story.  I suppose I appreciate what they where trying to do given the context MP and GB provided, but from a pure enjoyment perspective I still would have preferred player agency and a better gameplay vehicle for the story.

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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
To each their own.  But to pick a few examples...

Quote
I can't think of a single example of any fiction which I could with a straight face say I think is about something outside the plot synopsis.

Depends on what you've read.  To pick a few well-known examples though... is Gulliver's Travels (Jonathan Swift) really about visits to lilliputians, Houyhnhnms, etc?  Is Lord of the Flies (William Golding) about a bunch of boys that go feral? How about the I, Robot collection (Isaac Asimov) - is it really just about robots in every day life? The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Douglas Adams) - about Earth being blown up and interstellar travel? I think you'll find that most works of fiction have a lot more to them than their plot synopsis.

I've read very very little, and none of those and no other remarkable classics either that I recall. I of course know what those are about plot-wise and have seen adaptations, but I've never read the books.

This may or may not be in your interest.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
I think BSI is a bold statement that does advance the art form, and exercise in demonstrating to players why lack of agency is unsatisfying, unfulfilling, and ultimately meaningless, and a cry to move games forward as art and not Call of Duty #2437: Ghostly black zombie warfare tactics.

There's a little irony here because (WHOA GET READY IT'S ON OHHHHHHHHHH ****) Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 was a better story about violence and agency than BioShock Infinite. It's super subversive.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Huh

Well I must admit I hadn't considered BSI as intentionally built on bad design elements in order to convey a beyond the 4th wall message.  I had just finished DE:HR and was miffed that all player choice was taken away and I was railroaded into senseless violence.  I felt completely unmotivated in most cases to kill any of the opponents and felt it was a chore I had to trudge through to progress the story.  I suppose I appreciate what they where trying to do given the context MP and GB provided, but from a pure enjoyment perspective I still would have preferred player agency and a better gameplay vehicle for the story.

Given that it's Elizabeth's story and the player is merely a force in the world that shapes her agency (you have none), and your force is essential to her exercise of agency, that wouldn't be possible.

Now, had the game played as Elizabeth herself and Booker been the AI companion, that's a whole different kettle of fish.  Frankly, it would have been a much bolder exercise and a much more fulfilling one in terms of both narrative and subtext, too... but it wouldn't have gotten through the AAA gaming exercise.  And that, I suspect, is why BSI goes the way it does - it cannot acceptably be what it should have been, and so it critiques that very notion and still caps off the 'Shock' experience.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
I think BSI is a bold statement that does advance the art form, and exercise in demonstrating to players why lack of agency is unsatisfying, unfulfilling, and ultimately meaningless, and a cry to move games forward as art and not Call of Duty #2437: Ghostly black zombie warfare tactics.

There's a little irony here because (WHOA GET READY IT'S ON OHHHHHHHHHH ****) Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 was a better story about violence and agency than BioShock Infinite. It's super subversive.

To be fair, I have avoided the entire Heavy Call of Battlefield genre since, ohhh, BF1942 and its expansions.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Also yes, every part of BioShock 1 after 'would you kindly' is basically dead waste - but before that it's a story that only works in games. The fundamental power of BS1 lies in the implied ability to do whatever you please combined with the textual/formal assonance of the 'but would you kindly' design reality/control phrase.

I think BSI is a bold statement that does advance the art form, and exercise in demonstrating to players why lack of agency is unsatisfying, unfulfilling, and ultimately meaningless, and a cry to move games forward as art and not Call of Duty #2437: Ghostly black zombie warfare tactics.

There's a little irony here because (WHOA GET READY IT'S ON OHHHHHHHHHH ****) Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 was a better story about violence and agency than BioShock Infinite. It's super subversive.

To be fair, I have avoided the entire Heavy Call of Battlefield genre since, ohhh, BF1942 and its expansions.

Reasonably so, of them all I think only Call of Duty 4 and Call of Duty Black Ops 2 say anything interesting. They're very interesting, though.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Also yes, every part of BioShock 1 after 'would you kindly' is basically dead waste - but before that it's a story that only works in games. The fundamental power of BS1 lies in the implied ability to do whatever you please combined with the textual/formal assonance of the 'but would you kindly' design reality/control phrase.

Yeah, I guess that's a fair point.

It's somewhat ironic that the game that is Bioshock was so much greater than its narrative/subtextual conclusion, while the narrative/subtextual conclusion of BSI is so much greater than the game itself.

Like I mentioned above - had BSI instead inserted the player as Elizabeth with all her existing mechanics (and a few more - the ability to regularly jump between world at will, for one) and Booker was your AI companion, it would have been utterly brilliant, perhaps then deserving of the praise it has gotten as one of the greatest games every made.  As it stands, the difference between that potential and what we got is the difference between the potential of democracy and how it works in practice.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Right: playing as Elizabeth is clearly the game BSI wants to be, but it's an unreachable dream within the constraints of the game's development and target market.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Right: playing as Elizabeth is clearly the game BSI wants to be, but it's an unreachable dream within the constraints of the game's development and target market.

So, have you tried the Burial at Sea DLCs? =)  I'm only about 20 mins into the second, but so far, so good...
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
I read up on them, but (fittingly, perhaps) you're playing as a fairly Bookerized Elizabeth, without most of her agency. It's still a better game, though, as the RPS review seems to argue: more stealth, more environmental context.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
I read up on them, but (fittingly, perhaps) you're playing as a fairly Bookerized Elizabeth, without most of her agency. It's still a better game, though, as the RPS review seems to argue: more stealth, more environmental context.

I'm reserving judgement until I've finished it off.  The first one is basically Act I of a three-act play and can't really be judged in its own merits, but it did continue the theme of Elizabeth's story and agency with Booker being a mere vehicle of force, and the transition from force to agent at the start of the second part is actually pretty-well executed.  We'll see how it goes from here.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap

Given that it's Elizabeth's story and the player is merely a force in the world that shapes her agency (you have none), and your force is essential to her exercise of agency, that wouldn't be possible.

Now, had the game played as Elizabeth herself and Booker been the AI companion, that's a whole different kettle of fish.  Frankly, it would have been a much bolder exercise and a much more fulfilling one in terms of both narrative and subtext, too... but it wouldn't have gotten through the AAA gaming exercise.  And that, I suspect, is why BSI goes the way it does - it cannot acceptably be what it should have been, and so it critiques that very notion and still caps off the 'Shock' experience.

For me I got the impression from the story elements that Booker, while not a stranger violence, didn't exactly revel in it and had remorse for when he had to kill in the past.  However, in terms of gameplay I felt like I had parachuted into LA on April 29, 1992 and decided to murder anything that walked or crawled like a complete psychopath.  Given my mission objectives and my understanding of the character I found it all needlessly excessive and tiresome.  I think Booker could still have fulfilled his role as merely a force shaping Elisabeth's Agency just as easily by having to commit a few meaningful killings over the course of fleeing the Columbia as opposed to being a one man SS Einsatzgruppen.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
I think Booker could still have fulfilled his role as merely a force shaping Elisabeth's Agency just as easily by having to commit a few meaningful killings over the course of fleeing the Columbia as opposed to being a one man SS Einsatzgruppen.

And then it gets really ironic because you're arguing for agency in your lack of agency.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my last statement that I wouldn't mind if the lack of agency if the character's actions made sense within the context of the story.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my last statement that I wouldn't mind if the lack of agency if the character's actions made sense within the context of the story.

You're NOT wrong; I found myself (on my second playthrough) thinking the same objectives could have been accomplished much better if the combat was less frequent, involved fewer people, and was more lethal (i.e. no bullet sponges).

Had the player been railroaded among crowds of ordinary folk and injustice for the majority of the game, interspersed with elements of combat when a small group of highly lethal Comstock goons drops on you, I think the game would have made its point better and avoided the legitimate complaints about the ridiculous level of violence.  The Battleship Bay level was done exceptionally well in this regard, and it's unfortunate that the game didn't utilize that formula throughout.  The violence level begins to make more sense once you get stuck in the civil war aspects, but the sheer body count Booker racks up is nuts.  Had they moved to more of a one-shot one kill model where vigors were used to avoid fire or overwhelm opponents before they could lay into you, it would have ramped both the difficulty (let's face it, 1999 Mode wasn't hard) and the meaning.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Yes, early builds of the game had a bigger focus on social stealth/social threat in which mobs would sometimes turn on you or your focus would have to remain mostly on evading and escaping.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Sounds like the new Thief reboot is pretty much crap
Throw Crows at the problem and run

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