Author Topic: John Paul II is a saint? Not really.  (Read 13256 times)

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Offline Dragon

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Re: John Paul II is a saint? Not really.
Abstinence does not have a significant benefit above another method of contraception.
Of course it doesn't. That's why we have those new methods. The only "benefit" of abstinence is that it is "right" from the Church's POV. If you don't care about that (many don't), then there's no point in debating about it.

For me, it's rather simple. You either listen to the Church, and in that case you should actually practice abstinence until marriage, or you don't and use a condom. Anything else is foolish and dishonest, if you don't use a condom "because the Pope says so", but don't listen to him on the matter of extramarital sex, then you're dishonest with both yourself and the Church. It's common stance, but people who do that only lie to everyone around, including themselves. Either denounce the Church, or stick with what it says.

Teenagers are going to have sex, but for them, whether Pope endorses condoms or not is rather meaningless, because let's face it, most teenagers don't give a fig about what the Priest says, and only go to the mass if the parents force them. Any changes to Church policy on sex should be considered in context of gaining those teenagers back, not actually altering their behavior, because the Church hardly has any say in it anymore.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: John Paul II is a saint? Not really.
Ok, here's the deal. I can't really continue the debate any further, simply because of RL issues: I need to take a week off from HLP to finish my academics for the year. At any rate I've said my piece already.

But before I leave, I want to clarify one thing, because debates like this sometimes get mistaken for enmity. I don't have any grudges/complaints against people for debating me, and in fact some points were raised that I want to learn some more about, like Lorric's comment about the Netherlands. If nothing else I've learned reasons why people disagree on the issue, which is all to the good.

EDIT: Oops, posted this twice by mistake. My bad.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 08:46:02 pm by InsaneBaron »
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline pecenipicek

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Re: John Paul II is a saint? Not really.
1. Stable marriages seem like a pretty good incentive to me.

I am not legally allowed to get married in my home state.  Where does that leave me?  What incentive is there for me to stay abstinent?  The correct response is "to not get STDs", but there are other, infinitely more fun ways to get around that particular problem.  Abstinence does not have a significant benefit above another method of contraception.
:wtf:
any particular reason why?

also, on the topic of birth control and sex related things in general, i find that the people who are supposed to be celibate, are the least qualified people in the world to talk about anything in that matter.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: John Paul II is a saint? Not really.
Abstinence Only sex ed makes about as much sense as Ten Commandments Only Policing.

Sure, if everyone followed it those teachings, you wouldn't have any thefts or murders and wouldn't need police. But expecting everyone to do that and making no provisions for the fact that there are plenty of people who won't is a level of denial I find hard to comprehend.

The main reason it exists is because the people who do advocate it seem to believe that because it works for them, it should work for everyone. But the sad truth is even that isn't correct. The number of people having unsafe sex who made virginity pledges, etc usually turns out to be higher than those who didn't. We hear a lot about this sort of thing from teenagers precisely because most of those same teenagers have already abandoned abstinence only by the time they are in their mid twenties.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: John Paul II is a saint? Not really.
1. Stable marriages seem like a pretty good incentive to me.

I am not legally allowed to get married in my home state.  Where does that leave me?  What incentive is there for me to stay abstinent?  The correct response is "to not get STDs", but there are other, infinitely more fun ways to get around that particular problem.  Abstinence does not have a significant benefit above another method of contraception.
:wtf:
any particular reason why?

The state of Kansas does not recognize same-sex marriage.  It is still illegal and/or null in the eyes of the state.

 

Offline pecenipicek

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Re: John Paul II is a saint? Not really.
1. Stable marriages seem like a pretty good incentive to me.

I am not legally allowed to get married in my home state.  Where does that leave me?  What incentive is there for me to stay abstinent?  The correct response is "to not get STDs", but there are other, infinitely more fun ways to get around that particular problem.  Abstinence does not have a significant benefit above another method of contraception.
:wtf:
any particular reason why?

The state of Kansas does not recognize same-sex marriage.  It is still illegal and/or null in the eyes of the state.
ah, wasnt aware of that :)
Skype: vrganjko
Ho, ho, ho, to the bottle I go
to heal my heart and drown my woe!
Rain may fall and wind may blow,
and many miles be still to go,
but under a tall tree I will lie!

The Apocalypse Project needs YOU! - recruiting info thread.