Author Topic: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"  (Read 25341 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Awesome. This is a very cool topic!

The Copenhagen Accord reaffirmed that we can tolerate about a 2C increase in average global temperatures before we hit severe, possibly irrecoverable damage. (This number might be a bit, ah, optimistic...) The only thing that matters in determining our climate end state, as far as I'm aware, is the total amount of carbon1 we dump into the atmosphere. Our budget for this century is something like 2000 gigatons, with a range of +/- 500.

Unfortunately, emissions are rising, and that rise is accelerating. We need to peak emissions and start receding before 2020 in order to have even the slimmest chance of hitting our carbon budget for the century. The odds of this happening are...effectively zero. No event in the short recorded history of industrial civilization, planned or otherwise, has managed to knock emissions back that fast. And the carbon budget doesn't account for the possibility of major feedback loops and knock-on effects.

So what the **** do we do about this? Is it completely too late? Can we convert coltan and palladium into solar fast enough to have the slightest effect? (Or is it gonna be all about ~plastic solar cells~?) Will fracking turn out to be, as some data seems to suggest, a worse CO2 emitter than coal plants? I dunno!

Lest it be all doom and gloom Paul Krugman* seems to think major climate change is economically actionable:

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The U.S. Chamber of Commerce just came out with its preemptive strike against Obama administration regulations on power plants. What the Chamber wanted to do was show that the economic impact of the regulations would be devastating. And I was eager to see how they had fudged the numbers.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the diatribe. The Chamber evidently made a decision that it wanted to preserve credibility, so it outsourced the analysis. And while it tries to spin the results, what it actually found was that dramatic action on greenhouse gases would have surprisingly small economic costs.

The Chamber’s supposed scare headline is that regulations would cost the US economy $50.2 billion per year in constant dollars between now and 2030. That’s for a plan to reduce GHG emissions 40 percent from their 2005 level, so it’s for real action.

So, is $50 billion a lot? Let’s look at the CBO’s long-term projections. These say that average annual US real GDP over the period 2014-2030 will be $21.5 trillion. So the Chamber is telling us that we can achieve major reductions in greenhouse gases at a cost of 0.2 percent of GDP. That’s cheap!

True, the chamber also says that the regulations would cost 224,000 jobs in an average year. That’s bad economics: US employment is determined by the interaction between macroeconomic policy and the underlying tradeoff between inflation and unemployment, and there’s no good reason to think that environmental protection would reduce the number of jobs (as opposed to real wages). But even at face value that’s also a small number in a country with 140 million workers.

So, I was ready to come down hard on the Chamber’s bad economics; but what they’ve actually just shown is that even when they’re paying for the study, the economics of climate protection look quite easy.

*I haven't done any kind of credibility checking on Paul Krugman

And then there's the problem of the developing world. Oh, Indo-China, what are we to do?

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Faced with a tradeoff between CO2 mitigation and the rapid deployment of energy infrastructure, policymakers have prioritized the latter (and its associated economic benefits) over the former. Lu Xuedu, Deputy Director General of the Chinese Office of Global Environmental Affairs, was explicit about this when he stated that "You cannot tell people who are struggling to earn enough to eat that they need to reduce their emissions". Likewise, under the premise that an emission reduction target would hinder economic growth, Indian Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh stated that "India will not accept any emission-reduction target - period". Understanding the wickedness of CO2 mitigation in developing countries - and the differences in opinion about what constitutes right or ethical policy - is crucial for moving forward with de-carbonization of energy sectors. As long as carbon-free energy sources remain more expensive, less reliable and riskier than fossil fuel incumbents, fossil fuel energy systems will continue to be more attractive to policymakers. Until clean technologies are able to provide developing countries with inexpensive, reliable and scalable energy, we can expect to see further expansion of fossil fuel energy

(full, quite good article here)

So here's my question: what in the name of God do we do to resolve the Third World's quandary between (literal) local and global needs? Can anything effective be done to keep us on our carbon budget, or should we start moving towards a search for a climate-hardened model of civilization? Or is it possible that we'll find scalable low-emission solutions that will actually appeal to the developing world?

This is a classic tragedy of the commons. Individual rational actors may not be able to solve this at all, and attempts at collective solutions so far have been...very ineffective. Short of JC Denton bringing Helios online I'm not sure I see a clear solution. Am I too pessimistic?

1. I am totally neglecting other GHGs here, somebody might need to check my carbon privilege

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Let's kickstart a giant space parasol!

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Krugman is in my hit list.... ok seriously I like the guy but he's a rogue when it comes to matters of climate change. He knows squat about it and nevertheless has no qualms in throwing an entire new site like 538 under the bus because it had the gall to have an climate science expert of extreme weather events write an article that had the tone of "Don't Panic". His reasons? Thinkprogress said the guy was bad, therefore he was bad.

This kind of irrationality always pops into my mind whenever I read Krugman. Just read what you quoted (I had read it before), and it does indeed seem like good news to all of us. Frankly, the cheaper this thing is, the harder right wingers will have to fight back to implement policies of mitigation. My problem with Krugamn here, is that he was "ready" to debunk the paper, until he saw that it actually was a politically useful paper, that said things that pleased him, therefore there's no "debunking" needed. Interest in the "truth"? Zero.

ANYWAYS, regarding third world countries, when you ask what we should do, well the renegades like Bjorn Lomborg or Roger Pielke Jr and so on had the answer ten years ago, but hey what can you do when sensible people get thrown the rocks instead of being listened to? The answer is to get capital from a sort of taxation on CO2 in a level not sufficient to "mitigate it", but otherwise to fund a research program to get alternative energy solutions. There are many althernative energy solutions waiting to be explored (and are being explored, although funding is a problem). Focus on the research and experimentations and get these alternatives (solar, wind, waves, fusion, etc.,etc.) working cheaper than the fossil fuel counterparts.

This is the key point. Once you cross this line, you don't have to do anything else, because by then every politician and capitalist will invest in it. Well, you still have to invest in infrastructure that can function in the new paradigm and stop mad corporations from preventing the future to come about but that's that. And if these alternatives are cheaper, the developing world follows suit like lemmings.

This is not science fiction. Look at solar. It's price looks like a snowball going down a mountain. And coal is the dude who is standing below with a smug smile, who is just now looking back to the snow ball getting larger and larger going straight at him.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Well, it looks like it'll take some pretty long time before this snowball gets to him, then. In fact, I'm convinced it'll remain a just snowball. Solar power is not feasible on a large scale. Panels are expensive, wear out rather quickly and are inefficient, so you need a lot of surface area. Solar thermal plants are better, but will also hit a wall in form of surface area requirements. And even if you did improve the efficiency a lot, it'd still fall short of being a viable competitor to fossil fuels and nuclear power. Laws of thermodynamics are pretty ruthless, and even if you did use a theoretical perfect Carnot-cycle turbine (which is far from 100% efficient unless you're in space, and even then it's not 100%), you'll have to cope with limited energy density. According to Wiki, there's only about 1kW of solar energy per square meter hitting Earth with the sun at zenith. So no matter what, you're not getting more than that, and in practice, you're getting a lot less. Also, there's night to worry about, and the fact sun will not be at zenith the whole time. Solar power is a very bad deal, thermodynamically speaking.

Nuclear is the one and only long-run solution available to mankind, with fusion being a future option. Other "alternative" options are either, destructive to the landscape (hydroelectric, wind), or incredibly limited in placement (geothermal, solar). None of them are feasible in the long run.

 
Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
The Copenhagen Accord reaffirmed that we can tolerate about a 2C increase in average global temperatures before we hit severe, possibly irrecoverable damage. (This number might be a bit, ah, optimistic...

Indeed it is, as ocean acidification (Feedback loop between ocean and athmosphere) is causing severe and possibly irreversible damage right now (Oysters, oceanic reefs, pterapods).

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Focus on the research and experimentations and get these alternatives (solar, wind, waves, fusion, etc.,etc.) working cheaper than the fossil fuel counterparts.

I'd say they already are. Consider the damage caused by enviromental disasters, which are often not calculated into cost effeciency decisions (NRC had a nice article on it, in the EU governments spend more money on mitigating pollution and enviromental disasters caused by unclean energy then the combined subsidies of all energy sources).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 10:08:39 am by -Joshua- »

 
Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Curiously, the biggest drop in CO2 emissions for the past 30 years were not due to the depression but due to the gas fracking revolution,

Can I get a citation on that?

Everyone reported this, so if you google it you'll find a lot of it, for instance:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/12/07/surprise-side-effect-of-shale-gas-boom-a-plunge-in-u-s-greenhouse-gas-emissions/

Hmm, a forbes/sites article written by someone who works at an unconventional gas company. Allow me to be skeptic:
I don't really like that article as it assumes that the closing down of coal plants is due to shale gas, and not due to various other things going on (such as policy changes on a political level). Although shale gas is indeed a lot cleaner, it's not as good as conventional gas. For a country which uses a lot of conventional gas, such as the Netherlands, going to unconventional will be a step back.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
I'd say they already are. Consider the damage caused by enviromental disasters, which are often not calculated into cost effeciency decisions (NRC had a nice article on it, in the EU governments spend more money on mitigating pollution and enviromental disasters caused by unclean energy then the combined subsidies of all energy sources).

Well "I'll say they already are" doesn't trump actual calculations you know.

Hmm, a forbes/sites article written by someone who works at an unconventional gas company. Allow me to be skeptic:
I don't really like that article as it assumes that the closing down of coal plants is due to shale gas, and not due to various other things going on (such as policy changes on a political level). Although shale gas is indeed a lot cleaner, it's not as good as conventional gas. For a country which uses a lot of conventional gas, such as the Netherlands, going to unconventional will be a step back.

These are not relevant points at all. The reason why "unconventional" gas is being invested upon is because (obviously) there's not enough "conventional gas" to substitute coal in the global landscape. The idea that coal is being closed down due to shale gas is proven by that graph in the article. If the "real reason" is political and not any other is absolutely irrelevant, what matters is that gas is substituting coal in energy production in the US and that this aligns perfectly with CO2 emissions plunging, both empirically and theoretically. Unconventional gas might not be as good as conventional gas, but that's the reality of things. Shale gas is one or two orders of magnitude more available to us, and the only realistic "stop-gag" between a huge CO2 emission economy and a zero-CO2 emission economy.

 
Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
I'd say they already are. Consider the damage caused by enviromental disasters, which are often not calculated into cost effeciency decisions (NRC had a nice article on it, in the EU governments spend more money on mitigating pollution and enviromental disasters caused by unclean energy then the combined subsidies of all energy sources).

Well "I'll say they already are" doesn't trump actual calculations you know.
The EU has made quite a few calculations on external energy costs.
This is some more from the same study.


 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Can anything effective be done to keep us on our carbon budget, or should we start moving towards a search for a climate-hardened model of civilization? Or is it possible that we'll find scalable low-emission solutions that will actually appeal to the developing world?

This is a classic tragedy of the commons. Individual rational actors may not be able to solve this at all, and attempts at collective solutions so far have been...very ineffective. Short of JC Denton bringing Helios online I'm not sure I see a clear solution. Am I too pessimistic?

Climate hardened civilisation will be a must no matter what, unless something radically changes. Third world population continues to grow both economically and in numbers, renewables are intermittent and too little, too late, fusion is always 30 years in the future, nuclear is irrationaly hated by the public and Fukushima made this even worse. I dont see any effective solution in foreseeable future.

On the other hand, while GW is no laughing matter, I dont think warming of a few degrees is a threat to modern civilisation in general. I still think it is likely that peak oil will be the defining crisis of 21st century. And I find it strange that while GW is all over the media nowadays, that elephant in the room is pretty much ignored.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
My (recently heightened and much alarmed) understanding is that a number of past global oxygen-breathing extinction events have coincided with climate-induced changes in ocean oxygenation.

More to the point, I think warming of a few degrees actually is a threat to modern civilization in general. To quote some climate guy:

Quote
"...a 4 degrees C future is incompatible with an organized global community, is likely to be beyond 'adaptation', is devastating to the majority of ecosystems, and has a high probability of not being stable."

Quote
Oh, and by the way: According to the International Energy Agency, we're currently on course for 6 degrees C [10.8 degrees F]. That is, beyond any reasonable doubt, game over.

I'm going to get wasted and start hitting on my friends

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Other "alternative" options are either, destructive to the landscape (hydroelectric, wind), or incredibly limited in placement (geothermal, solar). None of them are feasible in the long run.

Hydro: ok
Wind: "landscape"? I hope you mean birds, not aesthetics. And as I said before, I believe1 the issue with birds running into them is greatly exaggerated. Bats less so.
Geothermal: geothermal can be done anywhere, you just have to dig much deeper in some places. Passively using the ground mass to regulate building temperature, on the other hand, is also a thing, and should be much more commonplace than it is.
Solar: solar can be done anywhere, even if a place has cloud cover a high % of the time.

Industrial-scale power storage is not a novel concept. To name a couple schemes: flywheels2, and compressing air in large underground spaces. Both of which, I believe1, are fairly efficient as far as energy in vs energy out.

Also consider tide power and wave power. Well, probably not wave power.


I'm going to get wasted and start hitting on my friends
Use protection3. Indefinite population growth is not sustainable4, increased population = increased end user consumption, and I suspect we are reaching the limits of "increased (hu)manpower = increased efficiency"... and a baby does not help increase manpower.


1Until someone bothers to prove me wrong
2I once made a thread about this! Unfortunately people poo-pooed on the idea, IIRC because they read somewhere that someone was trying to make a flywheel that they could rapidly get the power out of, and they assumed that was the main purpose for which they are already used, rather than the frontier of development.
3A joke, in response to what I hope was a joke. But it makes for a nice segue.
4"Move to other planets" is not an acceptable option in my book.

 
Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
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Wind: "landscape"? I hope you mean birds, not aesthetics.

In my province, they actually banned windmills because of the latter.

I mean like.

It makes me want to strangle people.
And I am pretty sure that is a completely justified stance.

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solar can be done anywhere, even if a place has cloud cover a high % of the time.

Solar energy works perfectly well with full cloud cover. It just only has trouble working at night.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
I maintain that certain kinds of end user consumption can and should be reduced, because doing so would result in a reduction of resource consumption, and more importantly in the context of this thread, a reduction of GHG emissions, likely without catastrophic consequences for the efficiency of other industries.

Examples:
  • bottled water
  • gasoline
  • airfare
  • household electricity
  • beef

Solar energy works perfectly well with full cloud cover. It just only has trouble working at night.
Which is where the flywheels and air pressurization come in.

 
Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
My (recently heightened and much alarmed) understanding is that a number of past global oxygen-breathing extinction events have coincided with climate-induced changes in ocean oxygenation.

More to the point, I think warming of a few degrees actually is a threat to modern civilization in general. To quote some climate guy:

Quote
"...a 4 degrees C future is incompatible with an organized global community, is likely to be beyond 'adaptation', is devastating to the majority of ecosystems, and has a high probability of not being stable."

[/quote]

If it were 4 to 6 degrees colder then it is now, we would be in the next ice age.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Quote
Oh, and by the way: According to the International Energy Agency, we're currently on course for 6 degrees C [10.8 degrees F]. That is, beyond any reasonable doubt, game over.

I'm going to get wasted and start hitting on my friends

Before you do realise that you've just quoted the IEA as an expert on climate change.

There's reason to be concerned, but don't panic. Same goes for peak oil, the alarm is unwarranted. We will overcome it, and we will look back funnily into these days like "we were so clueless and so overly concerned about such naive things".

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
I quoted someone quoting them! (and yeah I broadly agree with you, it's been my party line for years, except - I am not sure it is quite as firm as I'd have thought, I think there is some cause for concern)

 
Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
There's reason to be concerned, but don't panic. Same goes for peak oil, the alarm is unwarranted. We will overcome it, and we will look back funnily into these days like "we were so clueless and so overly concerned about such naive things".

Whilst history is chock full of people being clueless and overly naive about things that were great cause for concern... I don't quite see why you adopt such a line.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
Well, panicking never helps. And our descendents, if they exist, will probably undervalue the effort it took for us to succeed. But that's the opposite of what you meant, isn't it?  :blah:

 

Offline Flak

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
I just wish everyone, especially those in developing countries, to be more aggressive with renewable energies, especially Solar Power since we can get it almost anywhere.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: NASA: "Holy ****, Antartica is breaking apart and we can't stop it anymore"
For that to happen renewable sources need to be cheaper and more reliable than fossil fuels. That's the realpolitik of it. (Nuclear is a great option because it can be swapped directly in place of coal plants without much change in infrastructure or handicaps on demand.)