Author Topic: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?  (Read 53299 times)

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
@Akalabeth Angel
The Terrans and Vasudans are capable of intersystem communications and yet they need comm relays, half of "A Failure to Communicate" is that you are guarding one such relay to maintain communication with the periphery.  why would shivan's be any different?, perhaps the "signal" degrades over increasing jumps limiting co-ordination to begin with before fading beyond use

Why would they be any different? That's the wrong question because it assumes the two sides are the same.
The question is not why are they different, the question is "If they are different, why are they employing the same means?"

Let's assume two things:
1. The shivans are a hive mind
2. The communication nodes are an extension of that hive mind

When the player destroys the three comm nodes in Lions Den, does the behaviour of the Shivans change in missions thereafter? no.
When the player encounters shivans within a hostile nebula environment with EMP that scrambles communications, do they behave differently? no.

The only "Evidence" for the shivan hive mind is a theory presented in the tech room. Actual gameplay, in both silent threat and FS2 doesn't to me support the theory.


A hive mind to me suggests constant communication to function at peak capability. This means that in any mission where communications are lessened, either by distance, destruction of nodes, EMP interference, etcetera the shivans should be noticeable different. And they would be deemed different by supporting dialogue spoken by command or wingmen in-game.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
The Lucy was a strategic hub. Doesn't mean the others can't follow predefined orders. The great war fleet simply didn't receive updates to the battle plan.
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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
say the comm nodes are a tool relating to communication/control.

1) you are assuming that the system beyond the nebula is beyond the range of other elements of the network

2a) you are assuming they are active/in use at the time of their destruction rather than being stored there for transit at another time.
2b) assuming they only have a 1 system/jump range you are assuming they are the only ones in the system.

3a) as for the EMP you are assuming they transmit on using electromagnetic energy.
3b) we dont know if EM communications are their prefered communication method, the only time we encounter communication of any type with the shivans is in "Speaking in Tongues" and while that is in EM, we dont know if that is because thats how Bosch opened communications with them and they are able to detect this fact or if it's because that is how they communicate.
3c) there is no mention anywhere in the game lore of shivan communications, as such i suggest that use of non EM communications in a means undetectable by either protagonist species would be a valid explanation of this.

4) What are the rules for this communication method? is it limited to single hop through subspace?

5) A hive mind does not preclude individual decision making, a Terminal Server network for example, the terminals usually have some processing and storage capability.  This would allow local shivans to carry out existing instructions even if the connection is momentarily broken by an EMP blast

My post was an assumption, but one based on the fact that the devices have the ship name comm node, and while this is "out of universe"  naming them after their function would be a valid line of thinking.  and if that assumption is correct then it would imply a purpose relating to being communications related and a node is usually reference to a multiple connection point.  the principle purpose of communication is to share thoughts either as ideas, sets of instructions or as control.
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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
in fact I would go so far to say that the Lucifer "just" being a command ship would make be problematic as it would then open up the question of why are they unable to function as a cohesive unit afterwards if they are capable of independent operation, why do they not attempt to regroup, why are they suddenly so "easy" to wipe out?

The Shivans actions after FS1 is similar to the GTA's actions after ST. Both groups lost confidence in their leadership. Of course, the Shivan leadership was dead. The reason that the GTA lasted so long was that some of the leadership was still around. If all of the GTA leadership was stuck in Sol, the breakdown would have been much sooner.

Also, the Lucifer wasn't "just" a command ship. It was their entire plan. Before the Lucifer was unveiled at Tombaugh, the Shivans seemed very beatable. It was because of the Lucifer that we were in any real danger.

 

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
in fact I would go so far to say that the Lucifer "just" being a command ship would make be problematic as it would then open up the question of why are they unable to function as a cohesive unit afterwards if they are capable of independent operation, why do they not attempt to regroup, why are they suddenly so "easy" to wipe out?

The Shivans actions after FS1 is similar to the GTA's actions after ST. Both groups lost confidence in their leadership. Of course, the Shivan leadership was dead. The reason that the GTA lasted so long was that some of the leadership was still around. If all of the GTA leadership was stuck in Sol, the breakdown would have been much sooner.

Also, the Lucifer wasn't "just" a command ship. It was their entire plan. Before the Lucifer was unveiled at Tombaugh, the Shivans seemed very beatable. It was because of the Lucifer that we were in any real danger.

And up to that point a Cain cruiser did significant damage to the Galatea's fighter wing just trying to capture it.  At no point was a victory against the Shivans presented to be anything other than a bloodbath for all parties involved.  The Lucifer in simple terms is just a line breaker, while it can glass planets with ease its main direct military application is to break the battle line, something the shivans were already capable of doing but with greater risk of losses.

It took he shivan threat from perhaps a 7- 8 to 11.

Basically, while the Lucy was the focus of the protagonist's attention, by Reaching the Zenith its pretty obvious the shivans have us about beat, and by the time we kill the Lucy its a good bet that they know Sol is our home system so again, while they haven't glassed the system the effect will be the same, so again I have to ask why do the shivan's seem to fall to pieces? 

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread we are dealing with an alien psych so what you say is possible but it's not an explanation I like, it says to me narratively "The big, relentless, unknowable enemy just gives up just because we took their favorite thing away."

As for leadership.
The Vasudans had time to start an evacuation of Vasuda Prime and given the nature of the individuals involved you can bet the parliament, military leaderships and their favorite aids got out in the first wave, so while there would be *some* disruption to the chain of command it would be very short term.

Not sure how ST relates to the shivan war as that was a civil war which for the most part was conducted away from the awareness of the main fleet/bulk of people's attention with the main body only being involved in the late game.  Cant speak for STR as not played it but that is fanon anyway.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
As for it being just "taking their favorite thing away", consider the Japanese in WWII. They viewed their Emperor as divine. Take that away and all of a sudden they are confused etc etc.

 

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
As for it being just "taking their favorite thing away", consider the Japanese in WWII. They viewed their Emperor as divine. Take that away and all of a sudden they are confused etc etc.

As I say, its possible but to me it doesn't sit right
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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
And up to that point a Cain cruiser did significant damage to the Galatea's fighter wing just trying to capture it.  At no point was a victory against the Shivans presented to be anything other than a bloodbath for all parties involved.  The Lucifer in simple terms is just a line breaker, while it can glass planets with ease its main direct military application is to break the battle line, something the shivans were already capable of doing but with greater risk of losses.

It took he shivan threat from perhaps a 7- 8 to 11.

Basically, while the Lucy was the focus of the protagonist's attention, by Reaching the Zenith its pretty obvious the shivans have us about beat, and by the time we kill the Lucy its a good bet that they know Sol is our home system so again, while they haven't glassed the system the effect will be the same, so again I have to ask why do the shivan's seem to fall to pieces? 

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread we are dealing with an alien psych so what you say is possible but it's not an explanation I like, it says to me narratively "The big, relentless, unknowable enemy just gives up just because we took their favorite thing away."

Well, capturing something usually does take more effort than outright destroying it. Specifically, a single fighter (well, piloted by the player) doesn't have too much trouble destroying a Cain. But even so I don't remember losing too many wingmen, but I usually play medium or lower difficulty.

I believe that the Shivans are the "big relentless" enemy because of the Lucifer. Winning the Great War wasn't going to be easy regardless, but the Lucifer made a tough war basically unwinnable, at least conventionally.

It's kinda like the Battle of Midway in WWII. We destroyed 4 of Japan's aircraft carriers pretty unexpectedly. That broke the back of Japan's navy and a big part of their war effort. Now, imagine if the Emperor was on one of those carriers, along with all of the important/high-ranking government and military members. Sure, if an American ship neared a Japanese one, the Japanese one would presumably attack. But large scale coordinated movements would be difficult in the short term until the new command structure was figured out. Which is what we see in ST with Hellfire.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
The Lucy was a strategic hub. Doesn't mean the others can't follow predefined orders. The great war fleet simply didn't receive updates to the battle plan.

Yet Silent threat demonstrated that Shivans were still making strategic decisions, such as transiting between systems.

say the comm nodes are a tool relating to communication/control.

1) you are assuming that the system beyond the nebula is beyond the range of other elements of the network

2a) you are assuming they are active/in use at the time of their destruction rather than being stored there for transit at another time.
2b) assuming they only have a 1 system/jump range you are assuming they are the only ones in the system.

No. I'm assuming:
A - They are important
B - Their destruction has consequence

Fundamentally from a game design perspective, the comm nodes serve two purposes:
1. They reinforce the idea that the player is in shivan-controlled space. Because they have a permanent installation in-system
2. They give the player something to shoot at for 15 minutes.

No inactive device would have moving parts and a volatile power core. Explosion reactor = powered reactor. Powered reactor = active.

3a) as for the EMP you are assuming they transmit on using electromagnetic energy.
3b) we dont know if EM communications are their prefered communication method, the only time we encounter communication of any type with the shivans is in "Speaking in Tongues" and while that is in EM, we dont know if that is because thats how Bosch opened communications with them and they are able to detect this fact or if it's because that is how they communicate.
3c) there is no mention anywhere in the game lore of shivan communications, as such i suggest that use of non EM communications in a means undetectable by either protagonist species would be a valid explanation of this.

Bosch and the ETAK project studied the means to communicate with the Shivans.
Their go-to choice for first contact was EM.

Why would a research program, which studied means to communicate with the shivans choose a method of communication that is not the preferred? Further if there's no documentation of shivan communications from the outset, how would Bosch know to approach it in that fashion? GTA and PVN undoubtedly tried to communicate with the Shivans in the original war. The Shivans ignored them. Either because they couldn't hear them, or because they couldn't care.

EM got their attention because either
A - They could actually pick it up
B - They communicate in EM

Either way, I think SOME evidence has more weight to an argument that absolutely NO evidence.

Theories should be based on the facts at hand, not assumptions that the facts at hand are invalid.


5) A hive mind does not preclude individual decision making, a Terminal Server network for example, the terminals usually have some processing and storage capability.  This would allow local shivans to carry out existing instructions even if the connection is momentarily broken by an EMP blastq

One would think that a central authority like the Lucifer would preclude the existence of a hive mind in the first place. It's like saying the Borg are a collective and then introducing the queen in Voyager and First Contact. It's against the notion of what a hive mind is as I understand it.

Regardless it's not a question of whether the shivans cannot make decisions. It's a question of whether their decisions are markedly less capable than previous. The destruction of the comm nodes, the presence of EM interference had no apparent effect on any shivan activity whatsoever.

My post was an assumption, but one based on the fact that the devices have the ship name comm node, and while this is "out of universe"  naming them after their function would be a valid line of thinking.  and if that assumption is correct then it would imply a purpose relating to being communications related and a node is usually reference to a multiple connection point.  the principle purpose of communication is to share thoughts either as ideas, sets of instructions or as control.

Yeah communication devices communicate. We know that.

We also know that the destruction of the Lucifer severed communications between that ship and the rest of the fleet. We know that its destruction coincided with a marked decline in Shivan combat efficiency. The logical assumption is that combat efficiency decline as a result of the Lucifer's destruction but this too is an assumption.

If the Lucifer was a central authority in a collective consciousness, then what is the central authority in the FS2 fleet?

Is it the Sathanas? If the Sathanas is a central authority, then why didn't shivan combat efficiency decline after the destruction of the first?





 

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
say the comm nodes are a tool relating to communication/control.

1) you are assuming that the system beyond the nebula is beyond the range of other elements of the network

2a) you are assuming they are active/in use at the time of their destruction rather than being stored there for transit at another time.
2b) assuming they only have a 1 system/jump range you are assuming they are the only ones in the system.

No. I'm assuming:
A - They are important
B - Their destruction has consequence

Fundamentally from a game design perspective, the comm nodes serve two purposes:
1. They reinforce the idea that the player is in shivan-controlled space. Because they have a permanent installation in-system
2. They give the player something to shoot at for 15 minutes.

No inactive device would have moving parts and a volatile power core. Explosion reactor = powered reactor. Powered reactor = active.

A - Important possibly, In use, not forced
B - Well they cant be used meaning that more will need to be moved up

1-2) I can agree with that

I would also have to agree with the moving parts point, the bit about the reactor is not forced, for example a matter/anti-matter reactor would go bang if you breach the storage containment.

3a) as for the EMP you are assuming they transmit on using electromagnetic energy.
3b) we dont know if EM communications are their prefered communication method, the only time we encounter communication of any type with the shivans is in "Speaking in Tongues" and while that is in EM, we dont know if that is because thats how Bosch opened communications with them and they are able to detect this fact or if it's because that is how they communicate.
3c) there is no mention anywhere in the game lore of shivan communications, as such i suggest that use of non EM communications in a means undetectable by either protagonist species would be a valid explanation of this.

Bosch and the ETAK project studied the means to communicate with the Shivans.
Their go-to choice for first contact was EM.

Why would a research program, which studied means to communicate with the shivans choose a method of communication that is not the preferred? Further if there's no documentation of shivan communications from the outset, how would Bosch know to approach it in that fashion? GTA and PVN undoubtedly tried to communicate with the Shivans in the original war. The Shivans ignored them. Either because they couldn't hear them, or because they couldn't care.

EM got their attention because either
A - They could actually pick it up
B - They communicate in EM

Either way, I think SOME evidence has more weight to an argument that absolutely NO evidence.

Theories should be based on the facts at hand, not assumptions that the facts at hand are invalid.

The Colossus to my understanding probably forced Bosch to accelerate his timetable meaning ETAK was likely incomplete so it's possible that testing on alternative communications combined with the ETAK system was not reliable. - OK thats *really* thin but possible and the best I can manage for now

Detecting EM is a very likely possibility due to it's general use as a detection technology and like when you broadcast vocally on EM I imagine that its wave pattern would be very distinctive, and lets face it putting together an EM transmitter is not difficult.

Having said all that you are right that some evidence is better than none. but then there is nothing in the canon preventing an alternative theory on that one.

5) A hive mind does not preclude individual decision making, a Terminal Server network for example, the terminals usually have some processing and storage capability.  This would allow local shivans to carry out existing instructions even if the connection is momentarily broken by an EMP blastq

One would think that a central authority like the Lucifer would preclude the existence of a hive mind in the first place. It's like saying the Borg are a collective and then introducing the queen in Voyager and First Contact. It's against the notion of what a hive mind is as I understand it.

Regardless it's not a question of whether the shivans cannot make decisions. It's a question of whether their decisions are markedly less capable than previous. The destruction of the comm nodes, the presence of EM interference had no apparent effect on any shivan activity whatsoever.

Are we talking

a) TNG Borg style collective conscience with no distinct leader, where functionality below certain thresholds is greatly reduced
b) Voy Borg style controlled Collective
c) SotS Hiver Style where you have the Queen, underpinned by a number of highly functional "Princesses" acting as local focuses of the consciousness

As for the EM Like I discussed before that relies on EM based communications.

My post was an assumption, but one based on the fact that the devices have the ship name comm node, and while this is "out of universe"  naming them after their function would be a valid line of thinking.  and if that assumption is correct then it would imply a purpose relating to being communications related and a node is usually reference to a multiple connection point.  the principle purpose of communication is to share thoughts either as ideas, sets of instructions or as control.

Yeah communication devices communicate. We know that.

We also know that the destruction of the Lucifer severed communications between that ship and the rest of the fleet. We know that its destruction coincided with a marked decline in Shivan combat efficiency. The logical assumption is that combat efficiency decline as a result of the Lucifer's destruction but this too is an assumption.

If the Lucifer was a central authority in a collective consciousness, then what is the central authority in the FS2 fleet?

Is it the Sathanas? If the Sathanas is a central authority, then why didn't shivan combat efficiency decline after the destruction of the first?

If the Comm nodes extend the consciousness/will then said consciousness/will can be anywhere in the network so not forced to be local at all.

The lucifer in the first game was the focal point because the network for whatever reason is nonfunctional in the local node network for example due to node isolation.
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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Regarding comm nodes specifically:

1. If the destruction of the Lucifer was indeed the cause of the decreased Shivan combat efficiency, then if they are a hive mind it suggests they still have some central authority figure or hierarchy.

2. Furthermore, since there is no Lucifer present in FS2 and assuming that the nature of the shivans as a species has not changed, one must assume that central authority within the hive mind is vested in the Ravana, the Sathanas or an unseen asset.

3. Given the numbers and apparently spread-out deployment of the Sathanas and if one assumes these ships provide that same central authority, they should provide sufficient co-ordination on a local level.  There's one Sathanas or more in every system, so more than enough to co-ordinate their forces.


Therefore, the question then is, why are the comm nodes there?

Well the simple answer is that they exist because they are needed.
They are needed because they either add a new capability or replace/augment an existing one.

The second question one should ask is, is the player character making a difference by destroying them? In a game where the player is a heroic figure and where their actions have consequence to give meaning , it should be safe to assume that destroying the devices has some effect. Further the shivans attempts to stop the player could be viewed as protecting the devices, though this is not a given.



One theory might be that the Sathanas fleet is in stasis. Mothballs as it were. And the communication nodes provide a means for those ships to co-ordinate the active vessels without being in immediate proximity. Once the Sathanas fleet became active, the comm nodes cease to be needed and the player actions in destroying them is wholly irrelevant.

Another theory might be that the comm nodes permit the shivans to communicate over greater distances. Perhaps through the Knossos portals which are artificially created. Since at the time of their destruction the Sathanas fleet is already deployed this would likewise make the players actions irrelevant.

Or perhaps the nodes permit the shivans to communicate with another area that they don't currently have access to. With Shivan forces cut off from the main force or a central figure. But the former is unlikely because if it did permit them to communicate with other shivans far off, why then were they not able to co-ordinate the lucifer fleet.

Yet another theory might be that the nodes provide a means for large shivan fleets to co-ordinate their activities. A lucifer provides obvious authority. 80+ Sathanas if serving the same function, would provide mixed authority assuming they are all created equal.


From the gameplay itself, it's suggested to me at least that destroying the nodes has no noticeable affect whatsoever. But that idea goes against the very concept of what a game like this is about.
So I don't think its true.


Furthermore, On the subject of hive minds in particular:

If all shivans are linked on some level in a hive mind. Then why are human-piloted shivan fighters not immediately identified as not being a part of that mind? GTA and GTVA were able to accomplish subterfuge through use of stolen fighters in both games. Yet the Shivans were only able to identify that through proximity or player aggression. Doesn't a linked consciousness also give the shivans a sense of place? As in, the shivans know where they are so when a fighter is present that is not where they are the fighter is therefore foreign and not shivan? If the Shivans don't know where they are not, then how are their minds link?

Further do the Shivans demonstrate an uncanny ability to retain intelligence? Is it possible to surprise shivans and get away with it. Destroy fighters or assets before they can call for help. Or does the very act of attacking a shivan alert the entirety of the shivan force, at least within a certain proximity?

So personally it sounds like the hive mind idea is a bunch of bollocks from the stealth fighter example alone.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 01:23:20 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
From the gameplay itself, it's suggested to me at least that destroying the nodes has no noticeable affect whatsoever. But that idea goes against the very concept of what a game like this is about.
So I don't think its true.

On the contrary, the whole narrative shouts at you in capital letters how ****ing irrelevant not only your actions really were to the actual course of the war, the entire GTVA actions were also pretty much unable to deviate anything from its own course. The point of having those nodes at that moment was entirely plot-driven. The idea is to have you be inside an alien fighter, inside alien space. You are in a binary system which gives one of your wingmen "the creeps", and you find strange, alien, weird looking shivan node "things" that have lots of powa inside of them. The fact you don't ever get to know about them later is just to reinforce how out of your league you really are, how unknown, and plotwise, unknowable, the shivans truly are (you as the pilot will never understand what those things were in your lifetime).


The "hive mind theory" is a simplistic phrase that may well fail to capture every single shivan behavior. What is important to retain is how different in their volition they are to us humans. We care about our singular lives. The shivans don't. They don't care one yota. They will send multiple fighters and corvettes to blow fleeing human ships in Capella even though they "know" they will be wiped out in a matter of moments. This is a hint that their actions are not of singular conscious beings. The evidence from FS1 about how their fleet loses efficiency after the Lucifer is wiped out is further proof that there's something along the lines of "hive mind" in motion, which could be taken in multiple ways. We could imagine them to be absolutely hierarchical with one ship commanding everything else. This is clearly not the case, "lose efficicency", not become dead. But they could well share intelligence and "consciousness" (or not). They could be aware of their own ships not being "their own" or not. Just because the shivans are able to see other shivan fighters and not immediately assume they are not theirs is not a shut case against the hive theory. We can postulate that, for instance, this notion is not automatic, they were distracted and just assumed they were looking "at themselves" and dwelled no further into such thoughts, etc.

(For instance, I can perfectly imagine one instance where I look at one finger near me and I think it's mine, only to find out it isn't when I try to move it).

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
From the gameplay itself, it's suggested to me at least that destroying the nodes has no noticeable affect whatsoever. But that idea goes against the very concept of what a game like this is about.
So I don't think its true.

On the contrary, the whole narrative shouts at you in capital letters how ****ing irrelevant not only your actions really were to the actual course of the war, the entire GTVA actions were also pretty much unable to deviate anything from its own course. The point of having those nodes at that moment was entirely plot-driven. The idea is to have you be inside an alien fighter, inside alien space. You are in a binary system which gives one of your wingmen "the creeps", and you find strange, alien, weird looking shivan node "things" that have lots of powa inside of them. The fact you don't ever get to know about them later is just to reinforce how out of your league you really are, how unknown, and plotwise, unknowable, the shivans truly are (you as the pilot will never understand what those things were in your lifetime).

I'm not addressing the "actual course of the war".
FS2 is very much a story about small victories in the context of a larger defeat. Saving a ship is having consequence. Destroying the capella node is having consequence. Even destroying the initial Sathanas is a victory because if nothing else, it buys time for the GTVA and also gives it the opportunity to gain greater knowledge of the scope of the Shivan threat. Finding the second knossos, an act only made possible by the destruction of the first ship, enables intelligence to go into shivan space. Something that has never been done before.

If the Sathanas was not neutralized, would the Psamtik still be hunting Bosch?


The "hive mind theory" is a simplistic phrase that may well fail to capture every single shivan behavior. What is important to retain is how different in their volition they are to us humans. We care about our singular lives. The shivans don't. They don't care one yota. They will send multiple fighters and corvettes to blow fleeing human ships in Capella even though they "know" they will be wiped out in a matter of moments.

When the Vasudans rammed their Anubis fighters into GTA ships did they care about their lives? When the Colossus stood its ground against suicidal odds, or the NTF did its best to destroy it, did they demonstrate a concern for their own lives?

There's a difference between not caring about survival, and caring about an ideal so much that survival instinct is over-ridden.
The Shivans demonstrate a singular conviction towards their goals. This doesn't prove they don't care about existence.


This is a hint that their actions are not of singular conscious beings. The evidence from FS1 about how their fleet loses efficiency after the Lucifer is wiped out is further proof that there's something along the lines of "hive mind" in motion, which could be taken in multiple ways.

That depends on the specific effects.

If the lack of potency in the shivans was strategic ineptitude, but they were still potent on a tactical level, that could be just as easily explainable as a loss of command structure.

If the fighters rather aimed worse, manoeuvred worse and perhaps were even less efficient internally that suggest a constant connection to a central mind. But a constant connection and a lack of awareness in the spy missions don't work together in my opinion.

The very concept of a hive mind to my understanding is that it is unstructured.

We could imagine them to be absolutely hierarchical with one ship commanding everything else. This is clearly not the case, "lose efficicency", not become dead. But they could well share intelligence and "consciousness" (or not). They could be aware of their own ships not being "their own" or not. Just because the shivans are able to see other shivan fighters and not immediately assume they are not theirs is not a shut case against the hive theory. We can postulate that, for instance, this notion is not automatic, they were distracted and just assumed they were looking "at themselves" and dwelled no further into such thoughts, etc.

The idea of distraction is a bit silly when you consider the tasks assigned to the fighter craft and the strategic importance of the target being evaluated. When the Lucifer entered in-system, would it not be immediately aware of what assets were at its disposal and would it then not re-deploy them to best effect? And when one fighter failed to comply with the will of the whole, would not that fighter be immediately subjected to more intense evaluation? Particularly by a set of craft whose purpose is to evaluate potential threats to the most important asset in the fleet? Doesn't make a lick of sense. Especially when you consider that in similar circumstances, the GTVA would be more effective in evaluating an enemy threat. If the Colossus jumped into a new system and a fighter wing that wasn't supposed to be there, was there, it would be challenged for ID and mission, etcetera.


I think the more likely answer is that the shivans have a shared purpose either through programming or doctrine enforced over eons of related activity. They're a hive mind in the sense that they have a common goal or purpose, one which overrides all other natural urges, but they're not don't have shared consciousness and they don't lack a central command authority. I think their underlying mission is largely hard-coded, changeable only from a central source and perhaps passed on to them by a local authority like the Lucifer. The lucifer fleet had a specific purpose, the Sathanas had a completely different purpose. Derived of that purpose they lie largely dormant or in holding/roaming states until circumstances evolve to reinitialize their behaviour. But Shivans still get orders passed down a chain of command which they carry out until completed or given new orders.

In FS1 for example, if the shivan fleet's underlying purpose was to assist and guard the Lucifer in its mission to eradicate planetary sentience, then the loss of the Lucifer would not only leave them leaderless but also bereft of their primary goal. Without that they would fall back to secondary objectives of engaging spaceborne targets but without the co-ordination of an all encompassing commander. It would presumably be even worse if they likewise lost all Demon destroyers. The more heads you cut off, the more each body part moves independently.

This would better explain Playing Judas. The Lucifer upon entering in system would not seek out a shared consciousness with what was available, but would rather trust that your Dragon fighter is in-system on a mission given by another shivan asset, which at some point received an order from the Lucifer. Or in other words, the Lucifer assumed it indirectly ordered the fighter to be there. The protecting fighters likewise were given direct orders from the Lucifer to protect it against hostile targets, they only registered the player as a hostile target a certain proximity rather then knowing instinctively that the enemy fighter was not one of them. It also fits with the idea of the shivans as living machines.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 05:05:14 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
From the gameplay itself, it's suggested to me at least that destroying the nodes has no noticeable affect whatsoever. But that idea goes against the very concept of what a game like this is about.
So I don't think its true.

On the contrary, the whole narrative shouts at you in capital letters how ****ing irrelevant not only your actions really were to the actual course of the war, the entire GTVA actions were also pretty much unable to deviate anything from its own course. The point of having those nodes at that moment was entirely plot-driven. The idea is to have you be inside an alien fighter, inside alien space. You are in a binary system which gives one of your wingmen "the creeps", and you find strange, alien, weird looking shivan node "things" that have lots of powa inside of them. The fact you don't ever get to know about them later is just to reinforce how out of your league you really are, how unknown, and plotwise, unknowable, the shivans truly are (you as the pilot will never understand what those things were in your lifetime).

I'm not addressing the "actual course of the war".
FS2 is very much a story about small victories in the context of a larger defeat. Saving a ship is having consequence. Destroying the capella node is having consequence. Even destroying the initial Sathanas is a victory because if nothing else, it buys time for the GTVA and also gives it the opportunity to gain greater knowledge of the scope of the Shivan threat. Finding the second knossos, an act only made possible by the destruction of the first ship, enables intelligence to go into shivan space. Something that has never been done before.

If the Sathanas was not neutralized, would the Psamtik still be hunting Bosch?

You have not addressed my point. You said that the insignificance of destroying the nodes was against what "a game like this is about", except this game is precisely about a tale of Lovecrafian horror, i.e., the acknowledgement of sheer incapability to understand or destroy a massive being, that the only reason we are left alive is because they weren't even interested. In such a game, the fact these nodes' destruction are probably insignificant is just as well.

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When the Vasudans rammed their Anubis fighters into GTA ships did they care about their lives? When the Colossus stood its ground against suicidal odds, or the NTF did its best to destroy it, did they demonstrate a concern for their own lives?

There's a difference between not caring about survival, and caring about an ideal so much that survival instinct is over-ridden.
The Shivans demonstrate a singular conviction towards their goals. This doesn't prove they don't care about existence.

This is obviously and demonstrably wrong. There is not one tactical achievement being done by staying in Capella and mass murdering every Capellan fugitive while the star is being supernovaed. The only threat the shivans face is the Collossus itself that could at any given point jump towards the rear of a Sathanas near the star and take advantage of their weaker beam cannons there. Even still, such a target would probably survive long enough until any other Sathanas could jump-beamrape it. Except for that weak threat, there was nothing the alliance could even hope to do.


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The very concept of a hive mind to my understanding is that it is unstructured.

I'm pretty certain this is not the case [V] thought about nor is the case most of the people here thought about it. Hive minds do not preclude hierarchical structures.

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The idea of distraction is a bit silly when you consider the tasks assigned to the fighter craft and the strategic importance and alleged importance of the target being evaluated. When the Lucifer entered in-system, would it not be immediately aware of what assets were at its disposal and would it then not re-deploy them to best effect? And when one fighter failed to comply with the will of the whole, would not that fighter be immediately subjected to more intense evaluation? Particularly by a set of craft whose purpose is to evaluate potential threats to the most important asset in the fleet? Doesn't make a lick of sense. Especially when you consider that in similar circumstances, the GTVA would be more effective in evaluating an enemy threat. If the Colossus jumped into a new system and a fighter wing that wasn't supposed to be there, was there, it would be challenged for ID and mission, etcetera.

That reinforces the notion that they do not operate in the usual single unit volition-based entities. Only in such structures these kinds of protocols are enacted to make sure everyone's actually commited and operating within the specified hierarchical chain, which is abstract to us, not entirely natural. If a species is hive-minded, they will not develop such protocols, they are unnecessary. Every shivan ship is their own, they will mostly react to outsiders. Of course this is a big flaw in their "design", one without which the shivans would be unbeatable in FS1. But such is the cliché narrative of FS1: "bad bad weird aliens, they're coming to get us and they are invincible except they have this curious blind spot which we will use to our advantage".

You can always read it as basically shivans being sleepy or just in cruiser mode and really being careless about what their tiny ships were randomly doing where. Only when others reached sufficiently close would they acknowledge the presence of another will that wasn't their own.

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I think the more likely answer is that the shivans have a shared purpose either through programming or doctrine enforced over eons of related activity. They're a hive mind in the sense that they have a common goal or purpose, one which overrides all other natural urges, but they're not don't have shared consciousness and they don't lack a central command authority. I think their underlying mission is largely hard-coded, changeable only from a central source and perhaps passed on to them by a local authority like the Lucifer. The lucifer fleet had a specific purpose, the Sathanas had a completely different purpose. Derived of that purpose they lie largely dormant or in holding/roaming states until circumstances evolve to reinitialize their behaviour. But Shivans still get orders passed down a chain of command which they carry out until completed or given new orders.

Such is a possible theory as well, I agree that it fits.

Quote
In FS1 for example, if the shivan fleet's underlying purpose was to assist and guard the Lucifer in its mission to eradicate planetary sentience, then the loss of the Lucifer would not only leave them leaderless but also bereft of their primary goal. Without that they would fall back to secondary objectives of engaging spaceborne targets but without the co-ordination of an all encompassing commander. It would presumably be even worse if they likewise lost all Demon destroyers. The more heads you cut off, the more each body part moves independently.

This would better explain Playing Judas. The Lucifer upon entering in system would not seek out a shared consciousness with what was available, but would rather trust that your Dragon fighter is in-system on a mission given by another shivan asset, which at some point received an order from the Lucifer. Or in other words, the Lucifer assumed it indirectly ordered the fighter to be there. The protecting fighters likewise were given direct orders from the Lucifer to protect it against hostile targets, they only registered the player as a hostile target a certain proximity rather then knowing instinctively that the enemy fighter was not one of them. It also fits with the idea of the shivans as living machines.

Yes, I can live with that.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
You have not addressed my point. You said that the insignificance of destroying the nodes was against what "a game like this is about", except this game is precisely about a tale of Lovecrafian horror, i.e., the acknowledgement of sheer incapability to understand or destroy a massive being, that the only reason we are left alive is because they weren't even interested. In such a game, the fact these nodes' destruction are probably insignificant is just as well.

No it isn't. This isn't a game about a hopeless war, or lovecraftian horror, or whatever.

This game is about the player being a cool pilot in an inter-galactic war.

You're talking about the game's theme, tone and backdrop. I'm talking about player agency and their ability to affect things.
Player agency ensures that the Colossus defeats the first Sathanas. It ensures that the Bastion completes its final mission.


One can even argue that the player and the GTVA doesn't lose the war. Their expansion into the nebula certainly fails. But their ultimate goal of long term survival remains intact. How can you lose a battle when you're not fighting for the same thing? Shivans fought to conduct their operation, GTVA fought to survive, both sides accomplished their goals and both sides are ultimately victors. The fact that the Shivans could have defeated the GTVA and exterminated the lot of them doesn't mean its a possible outcome because the Sathanas fleet may be pre-disposed to perform another function.

Quote
When the Vasudans rammed their Anubis fighters into GTA ships did they care about their lives? When the Colossus stood its ground against suicidal odds, or the NTF did its best to destroy it, did they demonstrate a concern for their own lives?

There's a difference between not caring about survival, and caring about an ideal so much that survival instinct is over-ridden.
The Shivans demonstrate a singular conviction towards their goals. This doesn't prove they don't care about existence.

This is obviously and demonstrably wrong. There is not one tactical achievement being done by staying in Capella and mass murdering every Capellan fugitive while the star is being supernovaed. The only threat the shivans face is the Collossus itself that could at any given point jump towards the rear of a Sathanas near the star and take advantage of their weaker beam cannons there. Even still, such a target would probably survive long enough until any other Sathanas could jump-beamrape it. Except for that weak threat, there was nothing the alliance could even hope to do.

The tactical achievement is ensuring non-interference in the Sathanas operation.
They ensure this by working to eliminate non-shivan elements in system.


Quote
The very concept of a hive mind to my understanding is that it is unstructured.

I'm pretty certain this is not the case [V] thought about nor is the case most of the people here thought about it. Hive minds do not preclude hierarchical structures.

1. Swarm intelligence (SI) is the collective behavior of decentralized, self-organized systems, natural or artificial.

2. Collective conscious or collective conscience (French conscience collective) is the set of shared beliefs, ideas and moral attitudes which operate as a unifying force within society

3. A group mind, hive mind, mind coalescence or group ego in science fiction is a single, collective consciousness or intelligence occupying many bodies or entities.


There are many definitions of what a hive mind could represent. The third is probably the form you are referring to, but the third also makes the humans in alien craft missions untenable.


That reinforces the notion that they do not operate in the usual single unit volition-based entities. Only in such structures these kinds of protocols are enacted to make sure everyone's actually commited and operating within the specified hierarchical chain, which is abstract to us, not entirely natural. If a species is hive-minded, they will not develop such protocols, they are unnecessary. Every shivan ship is their own, they will mostly react to outsiders. Of course this is a big flaw in their "design", one without which the shivans would be unbeatable in FS1. But such is the cliché narrative of FS1: "bad bad weird aliens, they're coming to get us and they are invincible except they have this curious blind spot which we will use to our advantage". You can always read it as basically shivans being sleepy or just in cruiser mode and really being careless about what their tiny ships were randomly doing where. Only when others reached sufficiently close would they acknowledge the presence of another will that wasn't their own.

The premise you present is entirely unsupported by the game.
If the Shivans do not have protocols to ensure that everyone is committed towards a goal, then the shivan attacks would be wholly uncoordinated with random numbers of ships jumping in to attempt the overall goal in a haphazard fashion rather than co-ordinated attacks by wings of bombers escorted by fighter craft.

There is nothing random about their behaviour.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
No it isn't. This isn't a game about a hopeless war, or lovecraftian horror, or whatever.

This game is about the player being a cool pilot in an inter-galactic war.

You're talking about the game's theme, tone and backdrop. I'm talking about player agency and their ability to affect things.
Player agency ensures that the Colossus defeats the first Sathanas. It ensures that the Bastion completes its final mission.

I fundamentally disagree with you here. The "cool pilot in an inter-galactic war" is the setup, the expectation, that is eventually turned upside down and the whole notion ultimately defeated. The setup is the entire game going downwards, so yes, you do get victories and objectives done along the way, but they are ever decreasing in ambition, from shattering the NTF and bombing the Ravana, conquering the nebula, to destroy the node before the Sathanas gets here, to cull Capella nodes, until the last mission where you are just trying to get as many people to run away with their asses on fire as you possibly can, and at the very end you aren't even allowed to finish that mission altogether.

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One can even argue that the player and the GTVA doesn't lose the war. Their expansion into the nebula certainly fails. But their ultimate goal of long term survival remains intact. How can you lose a battle when you're not fighting for the same thing? Shivans fought to conduct their operation, GTVA fought to survive, both sides accomplished their goals and both sides are ultimately victors. The fact that the Shivans could have defeated the GTVA and exterminated the lot of them doesn't mean its a possible outcome because the Sathanas fleet may be pre-disposed to perform another function.

You call that a victory? The death of everything humans and vasudans thought possible to do in this universe ended in this chapter. They now realise the universe is filled with Supernovae inducing monsters, that they are flies that can be batted at any second. Hubris ends in despair and a fleeting emotion of false temporary security. "Phyrric" doesn't even cut it.

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The tactical achievement is ensuring non-interference in the Sathanas operation.
They ensure this by working to eliminate non-shivan elements in system.

Mass murdering everyone that is trying to flee the field of operations is far beyond the scope of "ensuring non-interference". By definition, all those ships were trying to "not" interfere as fast as they could possibly do.

Quote
1. Swarm intelligence (SI) is the collective behavior of decentralized, self-organized systems, natural or artificial.

2. Collective conscious or collective conscience (French conscience collective) is the set of shared beliefs, ideas and moral attitudes which operate as a unifying force within society

3. A group mind, hive mind, mind coalescence or group ego in science fiction is a single, collective consciousness or intelligence occupying many bodies or entities.


There are many definitions of what a hive mind could represent. The third is probably the form you are referring to, but the third also makes the humans in alien craft missions untenable.

Well it depends on how precisely this hive mind works. Given every single evidence we have, we can definitely have some notion of what this hive mind can't do, and so we can theorize on particular models of hive minds that encapsulate observed behavior. I'm not particularly convinced by your argument, since you preclude certain behaviors from a kind of structure by merely reading a phrase-lengthed summary or definition of it. There are levels of hierarchical thought that can be theorized in a "hive mind structure", you can juggle in other theories and ideas with it, etc.

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The premise you present is entirely unsupported by the game.

"Entirely" is surely an overstatement. The hive mind theory is clearly written in the intel bits, making it both volition canon and the conclusion of GTVA Intelligence. We can theorize about the narrator not being honest with us, we can theorize how both volition and GTVA Intelligence were not aware of these so-called "inconsistencies" you are pointing out, but to call it "entirely" is overreaching.

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If the Shivans do not have protocols to ensure that everyone is committed towards a goal, then the shivan attacks would be wholly uncoordinated with random numbers of ships jumping in to attempt the overall goal in a haphazard fashion rather than co-ordinated attacks by wings of bombers escorted by fighter craft.

There is nothing random about their behaviour.

I did not say they are uncoordinated. I said that the usual kinds of protocols we are used to in human ships and so on are probably non-existent in the shivan universe. The implication is that it is possible to theorize about a kind of hive mind that isn't permanently checking if every cell of its being is behaving consistently with their visual model of the world around them. Your theory is also possible.

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Just dipping my toe into the water:
What if the destruction of the nodes actually caused the Shivans to blow up Capella? Maybe without the nodes they revert back into some feral status, blowing up the very first star within a populated sector and then crash jump back into "friendly terretory".
Three nodes in a system with what... three Knossos portals?
Maybe the nodes are deploxed at crossroads and are intended to never come under attack.
With the Knossos in GD shut down, the Lucifer acted as hub and without it.

Just my two cents, I'm not that much into it but I enjoy reading this whole discussion.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Of course, that would turn the whole FS2 narrative into a cruel mad joke almost like JAD.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
No it isn't. This isn't a game about a hopeless war, or lovecraftian horror, or whatever.

This game is about the player being a cool pilot in an inter-galactic war.

I fundamentally disagree with you here. The "cool pilot in an inter-galactic war" is the setup, the expectation, that is eventually turned upside down and the whole notion ultimately defeated. The setup is the entire game going downwards, so yes, you do get victories and objectives done along the way, but they are ever decreasing in ambition, from shattering the NTF and bombing the Ravana, conquering the nebula, to destroy the node before the Sathanas gets here, to cull Capella nodes, until the last mission where you are just trying to get as many people to run away with their asses on fire as you possibly can, and at the very end you aren't even allowed to finish that mission altogether.

By campaign's end the player goes from regular, run of the mill fighter pilot to squadron leader of an ace unit flying top of the line fighter craft and having more and more responsibility. It goes from hubris and arrogance in invading the nebula, to the most basic and arguably most important victory there is: saving people.

But at no time is the role of the player subverted. They are not turned into something they are not. They start as a regular pilot and become one of the war's heroes.


Quote
One can even argue that the player and the GTVA doesn't lose the war. Their expansion into the nebula certainly fails. But their ultimate goal of long term survival remains intact. How can you lose a battle when you're not fighting for the same thing? Shivans fought to conduct their operation, GTVA fought to survive, both sides accomplished their goals and both sides are ultimately victors. The fact that the Shivans could have defeated the GTVA and exterminated the lot of them doesn't mean its a possible outcome because the Sathanas fleet may be pre-disposed to perform another function.

You call that a victory? The death of everything humans and vasudans thought possible to do in this universe ended in this chapter. They now realise the universe is filled with Supernovae inducing monsters, that they are flies that can be batted at any second. Hubris ends in despair and a fleeting emotion of false temporary security. "Phyrric" doesn't even cut it.

Some would argue that waking up in the morning is a victory. Particularly when you're in a war with the shivans.
At the end of FS2, the NTF was defeated, most of the GTVA colonies had not come under shivan attack, the threat of invasion from Capella was ended, and they acquired the technology to re-build the node to earth. 
That and the magnitude of the shivan threat was realized. You're going from the assumption that humanity and vasudan-kind will stop trying. Seeing 80 Sathanas destroy the star wont cause them to despair and prepare for their inevitable defeat. They'll try harder.

I would argue that the victory is not too dissimilar from FS1's. People say the story is cliche. It's not. There's no ultimate victory in FS1, Vasuda is destroyed and Earth is cut off from the rest of humanity. That victory is equally pyrrhic and in the wake of the conclusion there was more loss of life. FS2's story ends in a similar way, but it ends with realization and hope.


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The tactical achievement is ensuring non-interference in the Sathanas operation.
They ensure this by working to eliminate non-shivan elements in system.

Mass murdering everyone that is trying to flee the field of operations is far beyond the scope of "ensuring non-interference". By definition, all those ships were trying to "not" interfere as fast as they could possibly do.

How would the shivans know that? If they're told to engage all elements in-system they would attack both military and civilian targets alike. "Secure the area" generally means no shivan craft left alive and attacking all ships, including civilian ones, would follow the past shivan goal of extermination.

As for hive theory, symptoms of a possible theory don't prove the theory, particularly when there are multiple potential causes and when the theory's source also undercuts its credibility (FS2 if I recall mentions hive theory but also that others disagree). GTVA also has another theory, that the Colossus would defeat the shivans.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
By campaign's end the player goes from regular, run of the mill fighter pilot to squadron leader of an ace unit flying top of the line fighter craft and having more and more responsibility. It goes from hubris and arrogance in invading the nebula, to the most basic and arguably most important victory there is: saving people.

You do go up in your personal career by the same speed the GTVA is toning down its ambitions. Your last sentence is just unreadable. "the most important victory there is... saving people!" wat. It's not even second rate propaganda. And you *do* fail that mission, furthermore the only way to survive it is to boost your engines and leave all those so "important people" behind you (**** you suckeeeeers!). The word victory is ridiculous in this context.

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But at no time is the role of the player subverted. They are not turned into something they are not. They start as a regular pilot and become one of the war's heroes.

I agree with this, the war is the one subverted, not the "player" himself, although given how muted he / she is, in order to give the war campaign its narrative predominance, I'd say this is a pretty minor detail. The pilot is almost irrelevant, almost just another observer of a starbusting war with beams and nuclear explosions happening in front of him / her.

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Some would argue that waking up in the morning is a victory. Particularly when you're in a war with the shivans.
At the end of FS2, the NTF was defeated, most of the GTVA colonies had not come under shivan attack, the threat of invasion from Capella was ended, and they acquired the technology to re-build the node to earth. 
That and the magnitude of the shivan threat was realized. You're going from the assumption that humanity and vasudan-kind will stop trying. Seeing 80 Sathanas destroy the star wont cause them to despair and prepare for their inevitable defeat. They'll try harder.

This is precisely the bogus hubris that was defeated in FS2. This. Precisely this arrogance. The game goes all its way to ensure you get the idea that the arrogance of the GTVA in thinking it could outplay the universe (and the shivans) was so out-of-its-place it's not even funny. 20 years to build one collossal ship that didn't survive 3 minutes into a skirmish against just one big shivan excavator.

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I would argue that the victory is not too dissimilar from FS1's. People say the story is cliche. It's not. There's no ultimate victory in FS1, Vasuda is destroyed and Earth is cut off from the rest of humanity. That victory is equally pyrrhic and in the wake of the conclusion there was more loss of life. FS2's story ends in a similar way, but it ends with realization and hope.

FS1 story is clichéd in a different manner, that it is about One Big Bad Ship that is taken out at the Last Minute. There are Big Consequences That Have To Be Paid (like in every cliché, there's always a payment). FS2 slaps you in the face in the sense that The Payments you do along the game against the Shivans have no consequence whatsoever, and were needless anyway. You cut off the link to Capella and sacrifice quite a lot in those ops, but again, the Shivans are just ignoring all of this, they couldn't care less, and then the Big End is not how you defeat an enemy "with great sacrifices", but how you survive because The Enemy wasn't really one, they wanted something different that had little to do with you and just go away by themselves.

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How would the shivans know that? If they're told to engage all elements in-system they would attack both military and civilian targets alike. "Secure the area" generally means no shivan craft left alive and attacking all ships, including civilian ones, would follow the past shivan goal of extermination.

It's very easy to see ships fleeing a system. You watch them subspacing towards a node, then entering a node. And you watch a whole bunch of ships doing the same thing. Why are you stopping them? They are fleeing the system, just let them. The idea that this is hard to understand is ludicrous.

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As for hive theory, symptoms of a possible theory don't prove the theory, particularly when there are multiple potential causes and when the theory's source also undercuts its credibility (FS2 if I recall mentions hive theory but also that others disagree). GTVA also has another theory, that the Colossus would defeat the shivans.

I only need a text from Volition hinting this was the case and the possibility of it. There's no "Theory" here because this is fiction, and you might build a fiction on top of this one with your theory and others with other theories. As long as they are "possible", "compatible", then it's all that's required. You're not going to win any Nobel prize here figuring out with precise a priori thought what *exactly* the shivan nature is.