Author Topic: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...  (Read 69261 times)

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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Given that the Israeli military also seems to do what amounts to war crimes, why not classify it as a terrorist organization as well?
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
What Israel is doing is flat out evil but it would be a dilution of what the term terrorist means to classify them as that.


That said, on the subject of war crimes, has any Israeli soldier ever been convicted (or even put on trial) for such? Cause I don't recall ever hearing of a case and I find it pretty hard to imagine a military who have been involved in such a large number of conflicts and hasn't had one criminal who needed to be prosecuted.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
That said, on the subject of war crimes, has any Israeli soldier ever been convicted (or even put on trial) for such? Cause I don't recall ever hearing of a case and I find it pretty hard to imagine a military who have been involved in such a large number of conflicts and hasn't had one criminal who needed to be prosecuted.
Here's one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/world/middleeast/04mideast.html?_r=0

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
A couple here were demoted and given a suspended sentence (it goes on their criminal record) for using a kid to open a bag they thought might  contain explosives.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-soldiers-demoted-after-convicted-of-gaza-war-misconduct-1.325850

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
That's the same incident I posted, but yours is better.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
That was from 2008, btw.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
The article I linked to flat out says that the British Government were in talks with the IRA before both ceasefires.

No, it doesn't:

Quote
In August 1994, the Provisional IRA announced a "complete cessation of military operations". This was the culmination of several years of negotiations between the Republican leadership, led by Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, various figures in the local political parties, the Irish government and British government. It was informed by the view that neither the UK forces, nor the IRA could win the conflict and that greater progress towards Republican objectives might be achieved by negotiation.

It says the British Government were in talks with the legitimate political movement and its leaders.  The IRA was not included.  Even in the quote concerning 1996-7, it acknowledges that the IRA bombing campaign may have been used as leverage, but Sinn Fein and the politicians were the only ones the UK negotiated with.

Quote
And I flat out refuse to accept that distinction as being in any way meaningful given that Hamas is both.

I think this comment is what makes it pointless trying to continue this conversation. If you really believe this distinction is so important that you can't make analogies with Northern Ireland, I give up.

In one sentence you make a statement that acknowledges that the situation is markedly different as Hamas fills two roles, and then you say that that distinction is not important when it comes to drawing analogies.  Both of which ignore what I've been saying.

Hamas is, first and foremost, a terrorist entity bent on the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic theocracy.  It was politically elected once, and has since seized power.  It ceased to be a legitimate political movement the moment it took power by force, and it no longer commands the support of a majority of the citizens of Gaza (if, indeed, it ever did).

In the Irish situation, the UK government effectively marginalized and ignored the bombers, and negotiated with the political movement.  They were two separate entities with two separate philosophies on resolving the conflict.  In Gaza, that isn't possible - to negotiate with, and give concessions to, Hamas in order to get a ceasefire in the first place is to give in to armed extortion.  That's a fundamentally different reality than what the UK faced with Ireland.

This is why Israel should not begin negotiations with Hamas until there is an unconditional ceasefire in place.  Conversely, they should begin negotiations with the PA as the government of the West Bank immediately.

I agree that continuing further appears to be pointless, however, if you are unwilling to acknowledge the fundamental differences at play in the circumstances.  Just the history used as justification for the IRA versus Hamas is immensely different, nevermind the political realities of the present.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 12:01:45 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
That said, on the subject of war crimes, has any Israeli soldier ever been convicted (or even put on trial) for such? Cause I don't recall ever hearing of a case and I find it pretty hard to imagine a military who have been involved in such a large number of conflicts and hasn't had one criminal who needed to be prosecuted.

This likely has to do with the fact that the ICC is impossibly slow in investigations, brutally inefficient, and more or less incapable of compelling people to answer to war crimes allegations without an external military or police force scooping up the accused.  Do you know a government both willing and capable of forcing an Israeli residing in Israel to appear in The Hague?  Because I don't.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
But if Israel is so democratic and so respects the rule of law, surely they would have prosecuted someone themselves.

Which is kinda why I was asking.

It says the British Government were in talks with the legitimate political movement and its leaders.  The IRA was not included.

Only if you insist on maintaining the fiction that Sinn Fein and the IRA were separate entities. Since you are, there is little point in continuing.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 10:39:01 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Karajorma, that is totally besides the point. The fact that we both know Sinn Féin and IRA were really really close, if not outright the same organization sharing a different front is totally besides the point. By dealing with Sinn Féin and dismissing the IRA the UK government was making the political statement that one kind of relationship was the definite way to go and the other was not. This *is* the point. There is a farce involved here, but this farce is *absolutely central to even our daily basis social interactions*, and one that is absolutely needed if anything is to be resolved.

This is why Israel cannot deal with Hamas. It's too obvious an anti-jew terrorist organization. They cannot do it. The fact that the PA insists on having these people on the same table is inappropriate and shatters the entire conversation. The PA should publicly disavow Hamas and insist on their own political goals through proper channels, just like Sinn Féin did. It doesn't matter if they are being "hypocritical" or not about it, what matters is the expediency here.

Don't ever commit the mistake that these organizations are homogeneous even. The fact that both of those fronts existed was also a reflection of the heterogeneity of the ideas and peoples behind those movements. Certain people tried to make the case their cause would be better served by guerrilla warfare, others that it was better served by non-violent political pressure. It is debatable that one cannot exist without the other. I mean, without the terrorist expression, why bother dealing with Sinn Féin - but notice here something that should not be forgotten: this always happens in every liberation movement. Even the civil rights movement in the 60s had the really nasty black panther party and the nice and charming MLK. Without the former, the latter wouldn't have got as much political strenght.

By dealing with Sinn Féin, the government was at the same time disavowing the IRA while tacitly acknowledging the discontent about the unresolved political issues.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Meh, it's a polite fiction. Hamas have a name for their militant wing too. They're called the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades


Hell, there are even quotes on that page saying that Hamas/al-Qassam organisation is comparable to Sinn Fein/pIRA.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 06:30:32 am by karajorma »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
-snip-

Yup, exactly this.

It's worth noting that while pretty much everyone suspects the pIRA and Sinn Fein shared at least some of their leadership (and McGuinness was definitely a Provisional before he went to jail and entered politics), no one has been able to conclusively prove it.  Had they been able to, the talks with Sinn Fein likely would have collapsed as well.

Meh, it's a polite fiction. Hamas have a name for their militant wing too. They're called the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades

Hell, there are even quotes on that page saying that Hamas/al-Qassam organisation is comparable to Sinn Fein/pIRA.

Those political scientists' quotes aren't terribly recent, seeing as Hamas itself - not just the military wing - has embraced violence in this go-round.  Sinn Fein never supported the violence.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Saying that Hamas is comparable to the Sinn Féin is the kind of statement that really disqualifies any argument you are making here. They are not comparable. If Hamas has an even more radical wing to it, well then, what can I say but "Oh Dear".

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Like I said, I'm out. I'm sick of arguing with people who want to allow the circle of violence to continue because they want to characterise Hamas as crazy bastards who can't possibly be reasoned with. While the first part of that is pretty much true, I still refuse to accept the latter.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Yeah saying I or MP or whatever are allowing violence to continue is perfectly fair and reasonable on your part. Rational, even. I'm so taken aback by that piercing clarity of a statement that I'll even refrain to tell you what I really think about it, so genial it was.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
I'm pretty sure I've been arguing for ways to end the circle of violence without providing the fuel to restart it worse than ever a short time later.  Of course, I did write a lot of words recently, so maybe I slipped in a few cheers for the increasing civilian bodycount somewhere in there.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
And I've repeatedly pointed out that an agreement without Hamas is worthless since they're the ones in charge in Gaza.
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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
I'm pretty sure I've been arguing for ways to end the circle of violence without providing the fuel to restart it worse than ever a short time later.  Of course, I did write a lot of words recently, so maybe I slipped in a few cheers for the increasing civilian bodycount somewhere in there.

I've yet to see a solution that doesn't stick all the onus on Hamas in a way that's nearly unachievable for them to ever do. And no, saying both sides are bad as a lampshade doesn't cover it. Asking for peace from Hamas for an extended period of time as a negotiation precondition, wherein Israel will probably still continue to screw with them and provoke matters, is asking them to entirely be the bigger man even though in all meaningful metrics of wealth, education, and suffering, political capital, etc the people in Gaza are the weaker party.  Not to mention the trust aspect. Sure, disarm any ability to fight back, and then wait and trust the other side will respond appropriately even though historically they've given you no reason to trust them.

I repeat. Hamas is violent and civilian targeting is bad, but they're really not the problem here in the grand scheme of things. We were arguably, on the way to peace, and then Israel takes a crime they can't offer any proof for, and uses it as a pretext to arrest hundreds of people, many of which with political affiliations. If this were any other country, particularly if it was say, Russia instead of Israel, you'd all be calling this an obvious provocation, and probably a human rights violation just in the act itself. Accusations have been made before about them sabotaging the peace process, just up until now the evidence was more shaky so we ignored it. Are we going to continue to ignore it?

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Feel free to read the last three pages of the thread, where I explain precisely why Israel negotiating with Hamas without an unconditional ceasefire established is bad for the long term peace accord and is far more likely to result in more deaths, not fewer.  In those three pages, you will also find a number of references where I state that Israel should negotiate with the PA in the West Bank to come to a two-state solution with the non-violent party, but for the note that the PA refuses to negotiate without Hamas present.

Want to see a lasting two-state solution in our lifetimes?  International pressure needs to be brought to bear on Israel to get a deal with the PA, and on the PA to negotiate without Hamas.

What some of you don't seem to get is that Hamas is not comprised of rational human beings who will go "hey, we're getting a break here, let's negotiate in good faith."  Hamas is comprised of extreme ideologues who readily embrace violence who instead will say "hey, last time we shot at them we got more money for weapons and tunnels... let's try again and see what we can get this time."  You don't negotiate with the guy that's actively punching you in the face in violation of the law because he doesn't like you and figures you should give him money; you give him a shove out of your space and/or punch back until you and him both decide to stop fighting, and then you try to work out your differences.

Hamas does not actually care about dead civilians in Gaza.  In fact, they're happy to see dead civilians on both sides, because it keeps public observation aimed at heartwrenching photos in the news and not at the fact that the violence is being provoked, perpetuated, and encouraged by a bunch of bat**** loons whose entire goal is the suppression of all human rights among their own populace in favour of their bat**** fundamentalist worldview.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 01:31:31 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]