[Flipside]

Let's put it this way, criminalizing teenagers who are sexually curious and want to see the target of their desire naked (or want to show themselves naked to their target of desire) is just going to result in an awful lot of criminalized teenagers.

The only weapon against curiosity is answers, not court cases, but there's such a high level of resistance to admitting that these humans we brand as still 'children' when they are 15 years old and above aren't nearly the children we imagine them to be.

It's because there's still a belief that this thing that happens to every human being on the planet, 'sexual awakening', puberty or whatever people wish to call it, is somehow dirty and taboo, and so children enter the entire realm unprepared, and then people wonder why they struggle to deal with it.

[Mars]

What this requires is finally letting go of the sex-as-a-sin paradigm. The whole thing kind of reminds me of the "she's a witch, we can prove it, she'll have the devils mark on her labia" of ages past.

[666maslo666]

For instance, what if, at the age of 12 years old, someone takes a bunch of naked pictures/vids of them selves (maybe engaged in various activities, perhaps some of which involve inserting things in to assorted orifices.) and then sells said pics/vids online.

The entire intent of underage porn laws is to protect the children. When the child porn is self made, it is victimless and there should be no charges against the kid. This is a no brainer. Additionaly, there should be a fat near age exception like with age of consent laws so that sexting among children themselves is decriminalised.

You cannot exploit yourself, lol.

[Aardwolf]

@Mars:

I disagree. Not that "sex as a sin" is a stupid idea, but that it's what's important here, as you suggest.



@Mars, but also relevant to 666maslo666:

The stigma against so-called "child pornography" is not entirely illegitimate. Consider the "worst case": photographs or video of actual child molestation. That's what parents are afraid of, which got this stupid law enacted. Cops know people are terrified of child molesters, and they want to be able to say "look at all these child molesters we busted". Pedophile, child molester. People don't care that there's a difference.



Tangent: I read somewhere recently that (some place?) is considering legislature to define pedophilia (or was it child pornography?) as terrorism. To further water down the word "terrorism", and broaden the popular acceptance of the free suspension of habeas corpus that comes with its application.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Pedophile, child molester. People don't care that there's a difference.

I know I certainly don't care that there's a difference. The only way for everyone to know that you're a pedophile is for you to either announce it to the world (in which case you have only yourself to blame for the bad publicity), or act upon your urges... which would make you a child molester.

[Mars]

Does that make everyone who gave into their urges and looked at lolicon hentai a child molester in your book?

EDIT, as I neglected a response to Aardawolf:

I guess it seems like there's an element of these laws which isn't worried about protecting the children from external harm as much as it is trying to protect their purity. This may be coming entirely from some sort of bias I have though. I read somewhere that the original idea of statutory rape came from a Victorian paternalistic desire to protect a daughter's purity not her own personal protection, I have no idea if its true.

[666maslo666]

I guess it seems like there's an element of these laws which isn't worried about protecting the children from external harm as much as it is trying to protect their purity. This may be coming entirely from some sort of bias I have though. I read somewhere that the original idea of statutory rape came from a Victorian paternalistic desire to protect a daughter's purity not her own personal protection, I have no idea if its true.

I do think there is an undue cultural bias against sex crimes in our society, when compared to non-sexual offenses, which could stem from the "sex as a sin" cultural baggage. There is also bias against crimes involving children, when compared with crimes against adults. Child sex crimes is where these two intersect, which is one reason why moral panic tends to shut down any reasonable discussion and we get stupid laws leading to stuff like in the article.

[karajorma]

Ironically it's this stigma about sex which contributes indirectly to a large number of child abuse cases. People tend to assume that molestation of 14 and 15 year olds is the same as with 5 or 6 year olds, working on fear and shame, and that simply isn't true. With the older children a lot of paedophiles method is to be the "cool uncle" or "cool auntie" who is willing to teach the kid about sex. Of course, a 14 year old is nowhere near mature enough to tell when they are being manipulated so as a result the kid becomes a willing accomplice in hiding the crime from their parents. Pretty much every case I've heard of a female teacher molesting teenage boys falls into this category.

The entire intent of underage porn laws is to protect the children. When the child porn is self made, it is victimless and there should be no charges against the kid. This is a no brainer. Additionaly, there should be a fat near age exception like with age of consent laws so that sexting among children themselves is decriminalised.

You cannot exploit yourself, lol.

That's basically the answer I was going to give to Bob. I assume he's picked up the wrong meaning of my sentence. I meant it is not production of child porn as a criminal offence, not that the resulting material isn't child porn. While you might wish to stop the distribution of such material, it's pretty hard to make the claim that the underaged person somehow is criminally liable for doing something voluntarily.

[watsisname]

I'm so glad I don't live in Virginia anymore.

[Lorric]

Pedophile, child molester. People don't care that there's a difference.

I know I certainly don't care that there's a difference. The only way for everyone to know that you're a pedophile is for you to either announce it to the world (in which case you have only yourself to blame for the bad publicity), or act upon your urges... which would make you a child molester.

People used to (and still do) say this about homosexuals. People don't choose their sexual orientation. People are not monsters unless they actually start to behave like monsters. Child molesters should be dealt with to the full extent of the law. Pedophiles should have avenues of support. As all people who have issues with sexual urges and other sexual problems should in order to curb those issues before they create real problems. I remember one case I read about where a convicted pedophile closing in on the end of his jail term begged and pleaded to be sterilised because he couldn't control his urges. There was no legal way to even do that, and he re-offended. How backwards is that, we can't even sterilise a man at his own insistence to prevent children being raped!

You don't choose your sexual orientation. I'm lucky, I'm straight and have no issues with sex drive or whatever. I can only imagine what it must be like to have to suppress what comes biologically natural to you your entire life and have to endure that struggle your entire life completely alone, and one mistake, which doesn't even have to be an offence, and you're branded a monster for life.

I would also be interested in seeing you answer Mars' question. Are Japanese men all a bunch of perverts because of their sexual culture? The Japanese are extremely law abiding.

[MP-Ryan]

Some mandatory reading on child pronography laws and 'sexting' in the US: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/07/11/we-must-destroy-the-children-in-order-to-save-them/

[Dragon]

I wonder if any of the idiots who make those laws ever had their own kids... If they did, well, I pity those kids. Really, the archaic, Christian idea that sex is somehow "evil" and traumatizing should go and die a horrible death. So should equating nudity with sex, and especially the idea that even simple nudity is something "obscene". There's nothing wrong with being nude in itself, it's a perfectly good state to be in. It might be inappropriate in certain situations, but only in the same way being without a tuxedo might be inappropriate. It also can be unwise at times, in the same way going out without an overcoat might be unwise in some situations. But there's nothing wrong with being nude in general, even around other people, children and whatnot. There's nothing traumatic about seeing a naked human.

"Children are innocent" is a myth, especially if the term is applied to teenagers. Indeed, most of them are probably guilty of something by 14 or 15, and usually fully aware of their own sexuality. Technologh, especially internet helped with that, but it's hardly a new invention.

[Mongoose]

Clearly you haven't looked closely at the majority of other humans.

[Aardwolf]

People don't choose their sexual orientation.

Are paraphilias and fetishes comparable to heterophilia or homophilia?¹. I mean, paraphilias and fetishes are AFAICT entirely psychological. I used to think the same was true for sexual orientation, but I'm not sure. There are some gays who insist it's a pre-determined biological thing.



¹Are those words? Red squiggly says no. W/e, use your brain.

[Lorric]

People don't choose their sexual orientation.

Are paraphilias and fetishes comparable to heterophilia or homophilia?¹. I mean, paraphilias and fetishes are AFAICT entirely psychological. I used to think the same was true for sexual orientation, but I'm not sure. There are some gays who insist it's a pre-determined biological thing.

The point is it's all predetermined. People do not get to pick and choose any of it.

[AdmiralRalwood]

"Being attracted to a group of people who cannot give consent" is not a sexual orientation; it is a mental disorder. Please stop making false equivalences with homosexuality; it is incredibly insulting.

Does that make everyone who gave into their urges and looked at lolicon hentai a child molester in your book?

You are aware that "lolicon hentai" is itself illegal in many countries?

Are Japanese men all a bunch of perverts because of their sexual culture?

Of course all Japanese men aren't perverts, but Japanese culture is deeply problematic.

[Lorric]

"Being attracted to a group of people who cannot give consent" is not a sexual orientation; it is a mental disorder.

And they used to say that about homosexuals too. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Just because a consensual relationship is impossible doesn't change anything. Neither chose to be that way, they were just made that way. Besides that, they are normal. They will have jobs and lives and what have you and you can't tell them apart from anyone else. As long as they don't do anything wrong, they are normal.

The pedophile stigma has other damaging effects. People are afraid to interact with children, even clearly distressed or lost children, for fear of being branded a pedophile.

[The E]

"Being attracted to a group of people who cannot give consent" is not a sexual orientation; it is a mental disorder.

And they used to say that about homosexuals too. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Just because a consensual relationship is impossible doesn't change anything. Neither chose to be that way, they were just made that way. Besides that, they are normal. They will have jobs and lives and what have you and you can't tell them apart from anyone else. As long as they don't do anything wrong, they are normal.

The pedophile stigma has other damaging effects. People are afraid to interact with children, even clearly distressed or lost children, for fear of being branded a pedophile.

This tangent stops now. No, Lorric, equating homosexuals (who can act on their desires with other likeminded people without committing a crime) and pedophiles (who can't) is not the conversational gambit you want to take. Equating the two because homosexuality used to be illegal is not the right way to argue your point, whatever the **** you think it is.

Yes, it's deplorable that due to pedophilia cases, there's a lot of adult/child interaction that is regulated. And a lot of those regulations come about due to hysteria. But it's very much better to be overly cautious than to be overly permissive.

[Aardwolf]

You are aware that "lolicon hentai" is itself illegal in many countries?

Crimethink much?

[zookeeper]

Pedophile, child molester. People don't care that there's a difference.

I know I certainly don't care that there's a difference. The only way for everyone to know that you're a pedophile is for you to either announce it to the world (in which case you have only yourself to blame for the bad publicity), or act upon your urges... which would make you a child molester.

Wait, what? That doesn't make any sense. There's all kinds of ways (between staying in the closet, announcing it to the world and actually being a child molester) of how someone's sexual orientation can become known to you. And why should a pedophile not have the same freedom to announce their unchosen orientation to the world the same as everyone else anyway? After all, that seems like a clear sign they don't actually intend to molest children because being a known pedophile rather lowers the chance of people leaving their kids with them.