[Bobboau]

it's BAD. it should STOP. journalists who get caught in this sort of professional misconduct should be FIRED. the fact that there doesn't seem to be any hope of that in general SHOULD make you uneasy to say the least.

in responce to someone asking why anyone should care about accusations ofprofessional misconduct in the press

the fact that it has a delete icon, implying that the person who took the picture was logged into the account that made the post. granted it could easily be fake, hence the supposedly.
so you do not find the nepotism of this disturbing at all? nor the widespread censorship?

explaining what the screen shot showed and it's significance, and again responding to someone who did not seem to understand why the accusations were bad. I do passionately think that the thing she is accused of is very very bad, if she is guilty of it not so much, remember the thing I said about getting backed into more of a position that I should have out of defensiveness, this is a perfect example

So by "not having much of a horse," you mean you change your mind every 3 seconds, passionately defending each opinion before you switch?

Think about what you're doing, reach a conclusion that you're willing to stand by, and defend it and see if it holds up to outside scrutiny. Otherwise this is pointless, and I shouldn't take anything you say seriously at all.

and no, I'm saying the onus is on you

do you have hard evidence of these corruption allegations that isn't manufactured hearsay?

I took this as you making the claim that all of the evidence against her was fabricated, and that you were more than ready to "bury me" in evidence to that effect. sorry if I misinterpreted that.

[Mr. Vega]

God, I can't believe I lost sleep for this ****. Ok, I'm going to bed now. But before I do:

Is there any other evidence of affairs and corruption other than her vengeful ex boyfriend? Someone who by already crossing every conceivable line has proven himself willing to do anything to hurt Ms. Quinn?

[Bobboau]

Look, dude, I just want to know if you're going to claim that there isn't a large number of gamers with misogynistic tendencies that harass, cyberstalk, and threaten women.
no, I am not going to make that claim

[666maslo666]

Judging from what my little sister and female friends have encountered, the ratio of real to fake misogyny online is at least 100 to 1. But that's anecdotal evidence - why would you take my word for it?

I think a lot of the more vicious abuse is coming from trolls, and should not be taken too seriously. Zoey Quin has become a meme. There are LOTS of bored ****ty people online that jump up on any kind of potential drama to try to incite it further, no matter the specifics. And gender wars are some of the juiciest dramas of all.

[Ghostavo]

Even though I dislike the accusations against her, I cannot find myself having sympathy for miss Quin, when she is known to have engaged in the very same practices of doxxing (and pretending to be doxxed) and accusing people without any sort of evidence amongst other shenanigans.

[Grizzly]

"It is known!"

(But that does not mean it is true)

[Flipside]

The problem here is that both the strength and the weakness of the Internet is the ease with which you can avoid responsibility for what you do or say.

There's nothing wrong with these people having an opinion, that's fine, but when it goes beyond a simple, faceless voice on the tubes and starts to turn into actions or incitements to actions against the person involved, it's gone beyond opinion.

Whilst I don't actually agree that most gamers are misogynistic, far from it in fact, I think there is a portion of them who demand attention by being deliberately offensive, it's exactly the same people being racist as it is being sexist or adopting other extreme positions, not because they actually have those opinions but because of the attention it gets. Others are just people who love to rage, at anything or anyone. And lets not forget the masses of bandwagon jumpers who did it because their mates did.

Thing is, I'm all for Freedom of Speech, but there seems to be a new thing which I call 'Anarchy of Opinion', it looks like Freedom of Speech, ticks all the right boxes for it, but it is totally unproductive because the skills required to make Freedom of Speech a force for change, such as Diplomacy, have been removed from the equation, Freedom of Speech is a crowd chanting, the Internet often turns into a mob yelling, which isn't the same thing.

[deathfun]

and again responding to someone who did not seem to understand why the accusations were bad

Difference in opinion does not mean "does not understand"

I understand your stance on it. I just don't care or find it all that deplorable and explained why when asked

[Ghostavo]

"It is known!"

(But that does not mean it is true)

So which part do you want to dispute?

That she didn't fake being doxed/hacked to gather sympathy?

That she didn't accuse people without any sort of evidence?

That she didn't dox anyone?

[The E]

"It is known!"

(But that does not mean it is true)

So which part do you want to dispute?

That she didn't fake being doxed/hacked to gather sympathy?

That she didn't accuse people without any sort of evidence?

That she didn't dox anyone?

You do know that none of those links are particularly trustworthy sources of information, right?

(Also, has noone in this entire discussion noticed that none of the alleged review-score-buying-with-sex stuff actually happened?)

[Grizzly]

(Also, has noone in this entire discussion noticed that none of the alleged review-score-buying-with-sex stuff actually happened?)

Lots of people have noticed, but as it happens they are all on the same side.

[pecenipicek]

On the topic of censorship/freedom of speech. It does not give you the right to be a dick without repercussions, in real life or the internet.

I will not get on to the argument for either side as right now, everything is just too damn convoluted to figure out.

I just have to say tho that depression quest was... welp, an eye-opener and an explanation for some things happening to me. And hey, **** it, i like a game that makes me still think about it hours after i closed it.

[Lorric]

Oh look, a topic involving feminism and the usual aggressive, insidious tactics, and manipulative attacks twisting everything someone says.

Why does every feminist I ever see have to be so ****ing aggressive, manipulative and elitist. Every. Single. Time. I'm going to say this clear. There needs to be a pushback against this, it needs pushing back and pushing back hard. Not in the way these trolls and abusers do, but it is NOT okay to treat people like this. It is not okay to use these tactics and to make people afraid to stand up to you. I'll start taking feminists seriously when they start behaving like civilised human beings and start treating people with a bit of common courtesy. Feminist is a dirty word to me, not because of what it is defined as being, but because of the actions of the people who stand under its banner.

You should not be allowed to get torn apart like this for posting a topic other people don't like. Bobboau doesn't even have a strong opinion on the topic and you're tearing him apart, twisting his words and making sweeping assumptions about him. You should be ashamed of yourselves, and you need to take a look at yourselves in the mirror, because you look like the trolls you supposedly despise right now to me.

[Dragon]

Women had got their rights quite some time ago in the Western world, with exceptions being the military and some small, isolated areas where gender-based discrimination still happens. Of those, the military has some good arguments against women, owing to some very real physical differences (that said, I met women who'd fit into a grizzled Marine assault unit just fine, but that's an extreme minority). As such, a feminist who "fights" for anything these days usually is guilty of some sort of fallacy. Refusing to acknowledge the (very real and rather hard to dispute) differences, or "fighting" those differences is one of the more common ones. Demanding privileges under the guise of demanding equality is another, and perhaps the more frustrating of the lot. Indeed, this is generally why minorities sometimes face backlash after gaining rights. There will always be some who'll try to go further and demand privileges, or, failing that, try to exploit the fact they're minorities to get benefits (see "race card" sometimes played by people of color).

Since "moderate feminism" (a.k.a. basically not caring about gender whatsoever, in places where it's not relevant) are now the norm in most cases, only the extremists remain. Now, there are fundamental differences between how men and women view the world, and there is no denying or "fighting" that. There's no need to worry, or even think about that except when trying to get a complete picture of an individual's thoughts. Some feminists would like to see a world where 50% of babysitters are male, 50% bricklayers are female and so on. This isn't going to happen, no matter how much they agitate about that. If a woman wants to shoot a machinegun, lay bricks or load cargo onto freighters, that's fine, as long as she can bear the load. But most don't want to do this, and that's also perfectly fine. Some refuse to acknowledge this, and are frustrated that the world doesn't comply to them.

[The E]

Dragon, you are completely, utterly, wrong. There is a lot of discrimination against women, or for that matter anyone not falling into the normal gender binary, in every facet of our society.

There are still completely unjustifiable wage gaps between men and women. There are still areas of human endeavour where women are not accepted. There are still idiots out there who will slander and abuse and harass women for the unforgiveable crime of being a person with opinions. If you honestly believe that the status quo as it exists now is good enough, you should do yourself a favour and talk to women you are not related to about their experiences in everyday life.

[Grizzly]

<snip>

I must say that this is not the vibe I have been getting from this topic at all. So far, the only way that "feminism" has come up in the topic is because many people believe that Zoey Quinn is being attacked mainly because she is a woman who had dared to make an interactive fiction novel about depression (yes this has happened before). You can take a look on her twitter account: Lots of tweets sent to her are accusing her of being a whore having ****ed her way into recognition, because she started a relationship with someone who happens to be a games journalist (who has, in fact, not written anything about her or her work for a professional outlet).

The problem, to me, and probably also the The E, is that the video that Bobbeau posted takes the post of Zoey's angry ex at face value, without any shred of critical thinking, and uses that post to put her at the center of the corruption in the video games industry via conjecture, claims made up by others, and various other things.

The worst thing is that none of this ****storm is backed up by any single shred of actual evidence. Sure, there are tumblr images and posts being taken for hard evidence, but text and photoshop is easy.

So, in response to you, lorric, what we see here is an Indie game dev who is being harrassed by the usual aggressive, insidious tactics, and manipulative attacks twisting everything someone says (and making things up). Any idea of "innocent until proven guilty" is thrown out of the window. Polytron has been hacked. ZQ has been hacked, and she is buried under claims that it has all been faked.

And here we have someone who, trough ignorance, is spreading that message. Spreading the message that ZQ has faked the previous attacks on her (when DQ hit steam greenlight), spreading the message that she has ****ed her way in the industry, all based on purely allegations, conjecture, and the words of an angry ex. Spreading the message of people who are ****ing aggressive, manipulative and elitist. Every. Single. Time. I'm going to say this clear. There needs to be a pushback against this, it needs pushing back and pushing back hard.

[666maslo666]

There are still completely unjustifiable wage gaps between men and women.

Doesnt the wage gap shrink to just a few % when accounted for differences in education, job type, hours and other legitimate factors?

Anyway, there are certainly areas where women are discriminated against, or face unjust societal pressures. There are areas where men are at a disadvantage, too (sentencing, family court issues, showing feelings, homelessness, male rape, more violence against men and who knows what else), thats what mens rights groups should be for. Nowadays there really isnt any sex that has it overall worse, as was arguably the case in the past. But the point of feminism is also to deal with the women specific issues which still remain, no matter how small. Sure there are extreme feminazis but they are not the only face of feminism and you should not think that they represent it as a whole.

[Luis Dias]

I don't agree with you at all, the_e. First of all, the wage gap is way smaller than promoted. All studies find that when you normalize for women's choices in their lives, their children, career preferences and hours worked, the gap almost disappears. The 77% figure going around is a basic average of all wages without taking anything to account which is really misleading. I am sad that everyone just keeps on repeating this thing without checking...

Also, this idea that women are barred from certain fields is a gross interpretation of data. What is blindingly obvious is that women do not choose STEM fields when they choose their universities' degree. Its a choice. They prefer biology and medicine, for example, and they are the majority of the workforce in such places. If you want women in STEM fields, the solution is not to wage war to this patriarchy dragon, but try and instill mathematical values to girls, etc. However, be prepared to be disappointed. It is well known that boys are way moee interested in mechanical stuff from their earlier ages, while women are more interested in social interactions.

Regarding "people with opinions", there was a study that claimed that women avatars get 25x more than men. If this is indeed the case, its really frightening. I do think the internet is this amazing place but oh boy when **** hits the fan it flies everywhere... Non stop!

[Flipside]

From an abstract point of view, it's interesting because this kind of massive level of fury over an apparently tiny incident is often derided when it happens in other cultures.

[Mr. Vega]

Women had got their rights quite some time ago in the Western world, with exceptions being the military and some small, isolated areas where gender-based discrimination still happens. Of those, the military has some good arguments against women, owing to some very real physical differences (that said, I met women who'd fit into a grizzled Marine assault unit just fine, but that's an extreme minority). As such, a feminist who "fights" for anything these days usually is guilty of some sort of fallacy. Refusing to acknowledge the (very real and rather hard to dispute) differences, or "fighting" those differences is one of the more common ones. Demanding privileges under the guise of demanding equality is another, and perhaps the more frustrating of the lot. Indeed, this is generally why minorities sometimes face backlash after gaining rights. There will always be some who'll try to go further and demand privileges, or, failing that, try to exploit the fact they're minorities to get benefits (see "race card" sometimes played by people of color).

Since "moderate feminism" (a.k.a. basically not caring about gender whatsoever, in places where it's not relevant) are now the norm in most cases, only the extremists remain. Now, there are fundamental differences between how men and women view the world, and there is no denying or "fighting" that. There's no need to worry, or even think about that except when trying to get a complete picture of an individual's thoughts. Some feminists would like to see a world where 50% of babysitters are male, 50% bricklayers are female and so on. This isn't going to happen, no matter how much they agitate about that. If a woman wants to shoot a machinegun, lay bricks or load cargo onto freighters, that's fine, as long as she can bear the load. But most don't want to do this, and that's also perfectly fine. Some refuse to acknowledge this, and are frustrated that the world doesn't comply to them.

You've never worked in a Safe Haven shelter. You've never helped put together presentations for cases with your father for restraining orders for women whose boyfriends and husbands have threatened to kill them for wanting to leave or divorce them because of the constant threat of them or their children being beaten. You've never learned about a girl ending up in the ER or dead before the order could be obtained. These things aren't present in your world, therefore they must not exist. What we're condeming today is the tip of the iceberg as far as how we actually treat women, especially the invisible ones that don't have twitter accounts and post on forums for your education. Trust me, the point you're talking about, we're a long long way from reaching it. If that makes me an extremist, then welcome to our Orwellian world where calling for treating everyone like a human being is 'extremism'. Also, equal pay for equal work, mother****er.

As for Bobboau, he looked at a shoddy hackjob of evidence passionately and angrily presented and went with it. He does that sometimes. I don't want to accuse him of the same malice as much of the rest of her attackers. But i'm allowed to get angry about this ****, Lorric, believe it or not. I'm even allowed to go after someone who joined in with the shoddy accusations not because he enjoys attacking women, but because he thoughtlessly went along with a vicious attack campaign that, however much you may want to deny it, is fueled by misogyny. He added his mass to it and claimed the main source of the uproar was censorship. No, it is not.