Author Topic: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."  (Read 20533 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
You don't know what you are talking about The_E because you are not in the higher class, you lack the distinct flavor of the blue blood in your veins, how could you possibly understand how worse is a red blood tyrant than an educated, well fed, well behaved at the table, divinely attributed blue magical blooded King, one who knows how to turn a phrase or two with the most aristocratic posture ever enacted?

The_E, you just can't. Neither you nor me. Let's face it, we are little better than animals, we even have red blood for ****s sake. All that may come from our ranks can't possibly smell good, all chaos and uncivility at the table. The humour is gross, the perfume unsophisticated, and we even practice low-level sports like that thing the indigenous call "foot ball" or some such. Oh dear.

 

Offline The E

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
That is the unfortunate truth of our existance, I fear.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline karajorma

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
Even if you are correct Dragon (and I seriously doubt you are) you've forgotten to explain how the **** you go about installing a monarchy in a country that doesn't currently have one.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
Most Middle Eastern countries had monarchies up until relatively recently. While borders changed, Iran had Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi (that was one great monarch... Shame he got deposed, Israel would be having a much easier time), Iraq had Faisal II. Their descendants could be reinstated, there are still royalists in Iran, though they're persecuted by the current government. Hashemites (Faisal II was one of them) could also potentially have a claim to Syria. The problem with Iraqi royalty is that the main line was all murdered. In general, after the colonial period, most Arab states became kingdoms. Descendants of those kings could, perhaps, still be found. Now that I searched around, this doesn't look as hopeful as I thought (Iraqi revolutionaries were quite through with exterminating the royal family, as it turns out), but perhaps there are still some of them left.

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So Monarchs are just handed power because of their good looks?
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So what you're telling me here is that the difference between a Monarch and a Dictator is that the Monarch is the child of a Dictator. Not that there is anything intrinsically different.
Generally, monarchs are born into long-running dynasties. A monarch isn't a child of a dictator, he's a child of a long line of past rulers. This is also why they're handed power. Not because of their good looks, but also not because they carve it. Technically, any monarch will be a descendant of a "dictator" (excluding those in clan systems), but this is only because in ancient times, somebody had to start the dynasty. This doesn't matter, though. What matters is that they've come from a long line of people who ruled the land before them.
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Whereas Monarchs will despise every moment in which they are forced to exercise power?
No, but they'll only see it as what is really is: A means to an end. Indeed, a monarch who doesn't like ruling wouldn't be much good. But it's important not to rule for the sake of ruling, but for the good of one's country. Someone raised into power, interacting with more experienced rulers on a daily basis will likely be taught about responsibility.
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Last I checked, military service is still more or less required in some of the more successful monarchies around.
It's true that many monarchs, both in the East and West serve in the military. However, it's never their "primary" occupation. A dictator is generally a long-time military leader, while a prince will only serve long enough to understand how the military really works (a crucial skill for any ruler). Which brings us to:
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Yes. Usually one that is much worse (i. e. no experience of hardship, no experience in dealing with common folk).
Military service often provides that to princes, and while they do experience less hardships than most people, a good ruler will ensure that his descendants aren't completely detached from the common folk. Military service does that to a degree, college education does this, too (though in a different areas). All in all, royals seem to have a pretty good grasp of how their domains work.
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Whereas Monarchs are paragons of higher education?
Regardless of them being any good in their college, the receive kind of education most dictators simply do not have. This is what I've been talking about. Dictators are, in most cases, not prepared in the slightest for ruling a country, while most royals know well in advance that they're going to do so, and get appropriate education.
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And Monarchs are completely immune to the adoration of the masses all of a sudden?
Well, it doesn't seem to go into their heads nearly as much as it does into dictators' ones. Perhaps it's that they're used to it, considering their parents and everyone around them are essentially celebrities. It's good to have some "customary" adoration for the monarch, and if the monarch in question is worth this respect, then people likely wouldn't mind. If he isn't, then he's in trouble anyway, from both family, other rulers and his own people. It seems to be pretty well understood, I suppose it's common knowledge that if a monarch has honest, unenforced respect of his people, then he's going to have a lot easier time ruling them.
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Something that no monarch in history has ever done, I'm sure.
Quite the contrary, some of the most successful ones resorted to manipulation, especially when it came to other royals. But they were dedicated to their country, not themselves. Indeed, for a long time, a monarch and the country were considered one and the same. See Hamlet, where the King of Norway is just called "Norway". There's a similar sentiment among English aristocrats, they're often referred to by the name of their estate. Monarchs are hardly immune to narcissism, of course, but it's not a given. For a dictator, narcissism is almost necessary to gain power in the first place.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a war a couple decades ago that got started because one monarch sought more power? You know, a little, hardly remarkable incident called WORLD WAR ONE?
You're very, very wrong. By stating "WWI got started because a monarch got power-hungry" you're oversimplifying a lot. It got started due to a mighty political mess that was Europe at the time. There was far more to it than power plays. A quagmire of alliances, treaties, obligations of all sorts, power plays and diplomatic meddling made Europe of the time a powder keg, which was lit finally lit in Sarajevo.
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Yes, there is. One is an autocratic dictator who rose to power out of their own means, the other is an autocratic dictator who has had power handed to him from his parents. Both are autocratic Dictators.
And... you missed the whole point. Your last sentence indicates you're completely unaware just how much of a difference this makes. A king thinks, acts and rules differently from a dictator. Yes, they're both autocrats. That's where similarities end.
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What is North Korea, then? By your own definition, it is a monarchy.
Yes, it is. And the strangest, most pathological instance in the world. The first ruler was a dictator, but he then started a dynasty molded into his own image. By this point, it has many traits of a monarchy, but twisted in a really weird way. It's peculiar in that it's a horrible, yet oddly stable place. It's incompetently ran, but at the same time, it's also powerful and threatening. It shouldn't have lasted, not as long as it did, but here it is. I can't say if Kim dynasty produces geniuses, morons or madmen, but it's clearly an unique phenomenon. I wouldn't really compare it to monarchies, dictatorships, or anything else for that matter. It's a unique case kept up by a combination of it's geopolitical situation, culture and a lot of brainwashing.

 
Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
Dragon do you actually live in a parallel world where there are functional absolute monarchies in the 21st century? Because it's definitely not the one I'm in. You basically seem to have this idealised model of how an absolute monarchy works and all the advantages it has that applies to nothing that has ever ****ing existed.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
That's a lot of wild speculative theory, without any evidence to back it up. "Oh look at these awesome kings that were but no more", isn't that something so easy to say? Nostalgia is so flawed and so selective it's not even facepalm material really.

I'm still waiting for a good unbiased comparative study that shows monarchies to be better than republics. Nevermind the moral truth that a monarchy is objectively inferior to a republic for the simple fact that a monarchy suggests there is a special kind of people who deserve more than all the others by birthright. A republic denies this idea and for this alone is superior.

I am sensitive to the idea that monarchies are better than plain dictatorships. It might be right, it might not be. While it is true that dictators are often crueler and psyhopathic, it's also arguable that in some cases, such ruthlessness is required. Only in careful study could we reach a conclusion, but if I had to choose, yes, I'd choose a monarch over a dictator.

 
Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
Another fun thing to point out: Dragon's love of the monarchy is partly founded on his belief that the monarch will be able to train their heir to be a competent ruler. Anyone who knows literally anything about any monarchy ever is probably too busy laughing right now to continue reading.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
Another fun thing to point out: Dragon's love of the monarchy is partly founded on his belief that the monarch will be able to train their heir to be a competent ruler.
It's literally the only correct thing you said so far. And you know what? That belief is quite well founded. Do you know how much effort goes into ensuring the continuation of the dynasty? In the past, being a king was about two things: ruling a country and fathering a heir. It's been well understood since antiquity: a great king without a worthy heir is a temporary solution, nothing more. Each monarchy has a sprawling dynasty, some even use an elective system to pick the best crown prince for the job. You're underestimating just how well that works, the few monarchies that still exist are usually pretty stable. Do your research before you post.
Dragon do you actually live in a parallel world where there are functional absolute monarchies in the 21st century? Because it's definitely not the one I'm in.
That explains a lot, actually. :) Since a great big part of the Middle East (hint: Saudi Arabia is functional, even though there are many things wrong with it, it works) is apparently absent in your universe, you've got nothing to do in this thread.
I am sensitive to the idea that monarchies are better than plain dictatorships. It might be right, it might not be. While it is true that dictators are often crueler and psyhopathic, it's also arguable that in some cases, such ruthlessness is required. Only in careful study could we reach a conclusion, but if I had to choose, yes, I'd choose a monarch over a dictator.
My point exactly. Previously, I gave a detailed rundown of why republics in the Middle East don't survive. I'm strongly leaning towards belief that those two choices is all we have, since democratic regimes seem to tend towards degenerating into dictatorships, or collapsing entirely from internal strife (as it's about to happen to Iraq). As such, I'm advocating monarchy. While I don't have a definite study, there are many statistics in which Middle Eastern monarchies come out ahead of dictatorships and republics. There might be other circumstances at play, but the trend is rather apparent.
That's a lot of wild speculative theory, without any evidence to back it up. "Oh look at these awesome kings that were but no more", isn't that something so easy to say? Nostalgia is so flawed and so selective it's not even facepalm material really.
That's why I'm referring to modern kings and using historical evidence sparingly. "Oh, look at these decent kings who are", rather. I mentioned Shah of Iran, because he was one of the best rulers in the area, progressive, secular, accepting of Israel and quite pro-Western. Indeed, he got himself outsted exactly because of that, he was too secular for Iranian religious authorities. His case illustrates, in part, why reforming the Middle East is so though (well, that, and why foreign meddling never ends well).

 
Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
So I did my research, the ever-so-stable Saudi monarchy is still in its second generation of monarchs and has already seen one deposition and one assassination. Thumbs up for reliable monarchic succession!
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Offline karajorma

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
Most Middle Eastern countries had monarchies up until relatively recently. While borders changed, Iran had Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi (that was one great monarch... Shame he got deposed, Israel would be having a much easier time), Iraq had Faisal II. Their descendants could be reinstated, there are still royalists in Iran, though they're persecuted by the current government. Hashemites (Faisal II was one of them) could also potentially have a claim to Syria. The problem with Iraqi royalty is that the main line was all murdered. In general, after the colonial period, most Arab states became kingdoms. Descendants of those kings could, perhaps, still be found. Now that I searched around, this doesn't look as hopeful as I thought (Iraqi revolutionaries were quite through with exterminating the royal family, as it turns out), but perhaps there are still some of them left.

So you would put a completely untrained, unknown person in charge of an entire country because he just so happened to have the right bloodline and expect this to turn out well?
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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
I also looked up the Shah. His dynasty consisted of:

- him

- his dad.

It's pretty amusing to compare Dragon's idealised view of a monarchy with the "dictator plus son(s)" lineages he points to as real-world examples.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
So you would put a completely untrained, unknown person in charge of an entire country because he just so happened to have the right bloodline and expect this to turn out well?
I'd expect them to be some kind of aristocracy in Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Though now that I've checked, I'm less sure of that. While I'd expect them not to advertise they fact they survived, we have no confirmation that there's any Hashemite actually left alive, much less politically active. Chances are, the revolution killed off everyone but the most distant cousins. If they survived as nobility and maintained high standards of living and education, then they could be returned to the throne.

So I did my research, the ever-so-stable Saudi monarchy is still in its second generation of monarchs and has already seen one deposition and one assassination. Thumbs up for reliable monarchic succession!
Saudis are in a second generation only because Ibn Saud had quite a few wives and was apparently quite vigorous with them. His youngest children are outliving some of his grandchildren. As for the assassinations, they happen in democracies, too. You can't please everyone, and some are more violent about it than others.
I also looked up the Shah. His dynasty consisted of:

- him

- his dad.

It's pretty amusing to compare Dragon's idealised view of a monarchy with the "dictator plus son(s)" lineages he points to as real-world examples.
Perhaps The Last Shah of Iran isn't exactly the best example to cite. His dynasty ruled for about half a decade and was pretty short. Perhaps I shouldn't have used him as an example. Still, you've got to agree he was a great man. I'm personally fond of him, he was everything the current ruler of Iran isn't, and his fall kind of embodies everything that went wrong with the place (foreign meddling, religious nuts, Cold War...). His father's case is odd, because despite deposing (peacefully) the previous ruler, Rezā Khan ruled as a king, and like a king. He was also elected Prime Minister before his takeover, and it wasn't violent. It seems that he was some sort of minor noble, but I couldn't find much on him. In general, Iran's case likely is neither a good example "for" nor "against".

One should also remember that those dynasties all gained their lands very recently, usually somewhere between WWI and WWII. Before, they were noble houses, tribal leaders and such. It's to be expected they didn't rule an actual country for as long as European monarchs, simply because there were no countries to rule, just colonies.

If you want to delve into individual cases, then you'd see some departures from my general assessment, as usual. Psychological analysis is better done on a single person, and there's no such thing as "average monarch", because there are few of them. Still, you missed my general point. It's the best shot we have. A good chunk of my argumentation was comparing monarchies to other regimes and pointing out why, in the current situation, they're the best government that would work. You keep dismissing monarchy, but did you think what other choices are there? I propose we swap. You'll propose a solution, and I'll tell you how wrong it is. I'm not saying monarchy is the best thing in the world, ever (or anything about it's morality, for that matter), but only about it's viability in the current situation.

 
Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
You are so mired in confirmation bias it's hilarious.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
I cannot be reading this thread right.  I cannot be seeing someone, in the year 2014, unironically attempt to argue that absolute or near-absolute monarchies are a superior form of governance.

Another fun thing to point out: Dragon's love of the monarchy is partly founded on his belief that the monarch will be able to train their heir to be a competent ruler.
It's literally the only correct thing you said so far. And you know what? That belief is quite well founded. Do you know how much effort goes into ensuring the continuation of the dynasty? In the past, being a king was about two things: ruling a country and fathering a heir. It's been well understood since antiquity: a great king without a worthy heir is a temporary solution, nothing more. Each monarchy has a sprawling dynasty, some even use an elective system to pick the best crown prince for the job. You're underestimating just how well that works, the few monarchies that still exist are usually pretty stable. Do your research before you post.

It's like you don't realize that the few monarchies that exist today are the exception to the rule. [Edited to repair atrocious grammar]

Bah, PH, ninja'd me.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 02:43:55 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
Dragon's weird ideas are not novel around here. I find them amusing at least. But yes, MP is right: the only reason why current monarchies are any good is precisely because all the "bad ones" have been "naturally selected" against. That is, they failed the Darwin test. Obviously, the ones who survived "are not that bad". An abhorrent non sequitur to this factoid would be to then conclude that monarchies are actually good. No.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
yeah, anyone who thinks a monarchy is a good idea needs to watch Game of Thrones.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
You are so mired in confirmation bias it's hilarious.
And you failed to actually address anything I said. Could you say something correct again? You're obviously missing the whole point.
I cannot be reading this thread right.  I cannot be seeing someone, in the year 2014, unironically attempt to argue that absolute or near-absolute monarchies are a superior form of governance.
You're right. You aren't reading this thread right. I'm not arguing monarchies to be superior across the board (dunno what gave you all that idea). They might be, however, a superior solution in the current situation in the Middle East. That's what I'm trying to tell you. All I said was geared towards Middle East, it's problems and their solutions. An absolute monarchy is incapable of running a modern country, as it's too complex of a task for a single person to manage. An advisory body required would be too large and too powerful for such a monarchy to be truly absolute, and the modern society is (usually...) educated enough to handle responsibility. I've changed my position somewhat since I stopped relying on what I know about Polish democracy in general and seen how it looks in the West. Turns out, Poland is just bad at democracy. In France or Germany, and especially in the US, it works a lot, lot better. But on the other hand, it seems to either collapse onto itself or turn into a dictatorship in the Middle East, which is why I don't think it's suitable there.

Dragon's weird ideas are not novel around here. I find them amusing at least. But yes, MP is right: the only reason why current monarchies are any good is precisely because all the "bad ones" have been "naturally selected" against. That is, they failed the Darwin test. Obviously, the ones who survived "are not that bad". An abhorrent non sequitur to this factoid would be to then conclude that monarchies are actually good. No.
I think you're misunderstanding the whole process of how governments evolved. Obviously, a bad government (no matter what kind) won't survive. It'll either be replaced, conquered or have to adjust itself. This happens in all governments. Good politicians learn on mistakes of their predecessors, good heirs learn on mistakes of their ancestors, and good dictators (hypothetically speaking) would learn on mistakes of whoever they replaced. If a regime fails to learn, then it'll be replaced, either by it's own people, or by it's neighbors. This is the natural order of things. North Korea notwithstanding, a bad government generally can't last. Also, what's important an unsuited government won't last, either. Yes, it is possible, though rare, for a government to be "too good" or rather "too advanced" and get overthrown.

Now, another matter is how a single regime evolves. They all started out as monarchies, because a monarchy was, once upon a time, the most suitable regime to the task. As time went on, countries advanced. People became more educated, richer and more suited to responsibility. Absolute monarchies gradually stopped being suitable to the task of governing those countries. More and more power was in hands of advisers and ministers, since a single monarch couldn't keep an eye on everything. As general life expectancy grew, monarchies began to react slower (it's a crucial fact I recently realized and didn't took into account in my earlier arguments, I've since revised my position somewhat), especially considering the royals were among the first to have their lives prolonged. At the same time, education necessary for responsible political decisions was becoming more accessible, to the point democracy became not only a viable, but a superior alternative. The transition was fairly natural, depending on it's nature we've got a constitutional monarchy or a republic. In fact, I now support the theory that there's no regime that is "superior across the board". There are only ones that are suited to the current situation of the country in question, and ones that are not. It's good when a country has a government it needs. It's bad when it doesn't.

My point is, Middle East is behind the curve relative to European countries. As such, monarchies are much more suited there. Notice how strong religion is in the region, how women are treated and what common people think of human rights. The mentality of people there resembles 18th-19th century mentality at best and middle ages one at worst. Lack of education, relatively "recent" religion (meaning it's noticeably less "devolved" and "dated" than others) and treatment that the region received from the superpowers for much of the recent history are likely to blame. I don't think it's really possible to accelerate this evolution by much, whatever the cause of it being slowed down.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
And the point everyone else is making is that your logic is wrong. You're seeing monarchies which work (so you claim) not because monarchies are good, but because you're only seeing the monarchies that worked. The monarchies that didn't work were deposed, leading to massive amounts of bloodshed in many cases. And you're proposing that we bring those failed monarchies back?

You're claiming that Iran isn't a good example. I'm going to claim it's the best example because it's a country where someone actually did what you claimed was the best solution, brought back the monarchy. How well did that work out? Why would other countries be any different?
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Offline jr2

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
Dragon's saying a Monarchy is the best shot. ****ty, but the best.

And... It seems some peeps here are advocating  democracy over there?? How is that supposed to work without an educated, reasonable populace? It might work in certain places over there Idk.

If not democracy, what was your proposal?   I've not really heard any ideas besides Dragon's.   So what were yours? Or were you trying to say the region is hopeless and should be left to its own devices?

SSpeaking of which, saying that someone needs to watch Game of Thrones... that's a knee-slapper there.

BTW, if you want to know how a constitutional Republic works, watch west wing. Bahahaha.


 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: "We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can."
So what were yours? Or were you trying to say the region is hopeless and should be left to its own devices?

That was the general jist of it.
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